Manc

so why 300 years later are people generations removed owed anything?

so long as they have the same "fair crack of the whip" that anyone else does what is the problem?

Silly Sod

I agree entirely. Which, if you read my posts again, will explain why I think it should be overhauled rather than scrapped. It is simple. Make employers and institutions keep records of interviews and qualifications etc, and have them audited once a year. If it shows that there were no suitable candidates from minority backgrounds then fine, if it shows that minorities were preferred over non minority applicants with better qualifications and abilities then haul the employer/institution over the coals. And, then, if the records show that a minority member was discriminated based on race/gender/sexuality/religion/disability or whatever, the people responsible would be answerable. Doesn't seem like to much of an administrative price to pay to make a good idea work for the benefit of the whole does it? And lets not forget, minorities are not just black Americans. It could be your son, or daughter for any of the above mentioned reasons.

Silly Sod

Erm.....scratches head, slightly bemused........because......well..............they don't have the same fair crack of the whip Manc. That is what the idea of affirmative action was in the first place. YO\ou really should check out the 313 sometime. See if they are getting a fair crack of the whip on that side of ole Dee-troit.

Rete

Sorry but I don't agree. Affirmative Action is discrimination. Each and every person should have the equal and unprejudiced choice to attend work, work and/or rent and buy property, based solely on their abilities and financial status. There should NOT be a system in place that decrees that x number of positions must be filled by xx number of black, oriental, gay or <put in religion> persons regardless of whether or not they are capable of doing the work. The better qualified person should obtain the position.

I would think if they were spinning it is because of your statements and not ours. They did not want anything handed to them and their people. They felt that they should be given the opportunity to rise above their ignorance and poverty by the strength of their will, the education of their minds and the sweat from their backs. Affirmative action is like welfare ... it gives without allowing the receiver to feel accomplishment for a thing well done.

As for your other arguments about Natives. Give it a rest. There is no country on the face of the earth that has not at one time or another, from the beginning of time, that has not been taken over by one country, tribe, race or whatever. Even the UK was taken over by the Romans as was much of Europe. And then there is the Germanic tribes. Mexico and Central/South America had to contend with the onslaught of the Spanish.

Your argument is not only old; it is faulty.

Manc

I have a feeling that the crack whores on the corner of Grand River and Woodward are not there because they were refused entry to the University of Michigan.

Silly Sod

The point is that 'they' have never been given the opportunity to rise above their ignorance and poverty, if 'they' had access to education and decent employment they would not have suffered ignorance and poverty surely? Histroy shows this, and not the history of 2000 year old, unenlightened society such as the Romans, Anlgo Saxons, Celts etc. Surely you are not suggesting that because it was done a thousand years ago it is okay to do it now (by now I mean in very recent history, from the 19th century right up until the 1960's).

And yes, my arguement is old. That is the very sad thing, It so old that we should be embarrassed that it continues to be an issue. As for my arguement being faulty? I am bound to disagree. Perhaps if you walked a mile in another mans shoes you would too.

Manc

what education and jobs do they not have access to?

Silly Sod

No, you are right, they are there because they like it. Silly me.

Silly Sod

Manc, please tell me you are kidding. I am not talking about right now, though the fact is that if you are black in this country (and in our own by the way) you are less likely to receive much more than a basic education and hence, not have many decent job prospects. I am talking about historically, even up to the early 60's when most black schools didn't even have many books. Are you really trying to tell us that the minorities of this country are not discriminated against in these ways? That America is some kind of Utopian society where everybody is rich and happy and educated? Will you be telling us next that the Holocaust during WW2 never happened and that the moon is made of cheese?

Manc

I am.
right now, because today it is right now.

Silly Sod

And right now people are being discriminated against by one of the most racist systems in the modern western world. Right now Manc. This very second. If you don't believe it go take a look. I wouldn't mention your thoughts that they are getting a fair crack of the whip though. In fact, don't mention crack or whips at all or those shiny happy people out there who have lived with such things might turn out not to be so happy after all. Just a thought.

Manc

please cite examples of right now here in Michigan discrimination.

dan_alford

Well there is the U of M thing that caused the whole proposal on scrapping Affermative Action

Manc

which discriminated towards ethnic minorities.

Rete

And again I disagree with you. I went to school with Blacks. And mind you I'm 58 and just went to my 40th high school reunion the first weekend in October and my Black classmates were poor middle class like myself. Each and every one of them has done something with their lives. Back in 1966 when we graduated it was hard for them. But today they are nurses, an attorney, office workers, government employees and one is a higher up in Westchester politics.

They have had access to education for over 40 years. If they are still ignorant and uneducated and living in squalor who is to blame? Society? Or, dare I say it, themselves?

Case in point. In our city the west side was where the factories were located. The working class lived on the west side. And yes that was my family and my ancestors. Poor middle class whites of recent immigrant status. They worked hard and over time were able to afford to buy a house a little further north or east of the area and rise above. The west side eventually became a poor black area. Remember no hispanic communities in the 50's and 60's and 70's. The area became rife with crime, drugs, prostitution, etc. The projects built for returning WWII veterans (which we lived in from 1949 until we moved out in 1962) became welfare housing. The cry went up that blacks are downtrodden and deserve better than this type of housing. That if you give them a place brand new they would take care of it and have pride in where they live. So this was done. Brand new high rise luxury building was put up. Dishwashers, hardwood floors, elevators, 24/7 security, etc. Inside of ten years, the place is a slum. It is being torn down this year.

And yet if you allow any person the opportunity to do for themselves, be they white, black, tan, yellow, jewish, catholic, muslim, athestis, whatever, they will take pride in their accomplishments. They will have self-esteem and self-respect. So called AA was to give them that opportunity. So why so many years after AA was made law, has the end result not been what was sought?