slummymummy

So the other day on another thread someone said how much in love they were, and one of the regulars said something along the lines of USCIS don't care about that. I said really? I thought love was required for a bona fida marriage? And the reply was no love is not required, as long as you don't get married just for immigration benefits, and there are things like arranged marriages, etc.

Fine, I believe you, I don't mean to argue (here). I'm just very curious to discuss this more. Because of a general interest and how it *might* apply to a good friend of mine.

I thought that in most cases in the western world anyway, you do get married because of love. And if you're not in love but you still go ahead and marry someone in the US, it's most likely because you want to immigrate. (Not talking about people from cultures where they do arranged marriages.)

At least you need to be in love from the beginning? I mean if I'm asked at my naturalization interview if I love my husband I could maybe say "do you know what, I don't know if I do anymore, but we are good friends and staying together for the kids". I assume this would be fine. (Not true though, just an example...)

But if I had recently got married to someone in the US and at my visa interview I said "I don't love him but we are good friends, he gives me company and somewhere to live for free and of course I like the States better than my home country", would that be ok or not?? And does it perhaps depend on whether the USC is aware of this "arrangement" or if he's being misled and made to believe that it's real love?

In my friend's possible future case it wouldn't be any misleading, it would be someone who would agree to marry her to be friends and companions and she's not bad looking so possibly to show off socially every once in a while.

She's not against real love but when she tried it didn't work... yet anyway.

Ok, please discuss!

slummymummy

Here are some quotes from this thread http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...=788191&page=2

"We are so happy and very much in love..."
That's great... but you need to know that the US government doesn't really care whether love is part of the equation or not. It's not a requirement for immigration purposes, so stick to what's relevant.

Love is not a requirement for immigration purposes? Really? So what is the definition of a bona-fida marriage then?

"Love is not a requirement for immigration purposes? Really?"
Yep, really.

"So what is the definition of a bona-fida marriage then?"
Two people who are legally married, live as a married couple, and co-mingle their lives together as married couples do.

Love does not have to be a factor in the marriage (think of arranged marriages...those couples cannot possibly love each other on Day 1 of the marriage). There can be other factors driving them to marry (social factors, financial factors, etc). The driving factor just cannot be for immigration benefits.

It's a marriage in which both partners contribute to the relationship. This doesn't imply an equal contribution... only that both parties contribute. Love simply isn't a factor... which is certainly true in cultures where it's common for the couple to meet face to face for the first time on their wedding day.

Michael

Some people get married for companionship. Love is a figment of a person's imagination. If either one of both persons want to get married for companionship, immigration doesn't mind unless there is an ulterior motive solely as a means to immigrate to the US.

So since it is legal to get married in the US based on companionship, it is also legal for immigration purposes and immigration officers don't care.

slummymummy

Thanks for that, it does make sense but I feel there must still be a bit of a grey area...

"solely as a means to immigrate to the US"? So from what you understand, is it ok for the reason to be "partly" as a means to immigrate?

Anyway, it must be hard to prove exactly how much someone got married because they wanted to live in the USA and how much because they loved someone or wanted companionship with that person.

What are the red flags then to immigration? Apart from obvious, not really living together, having no joint finances.

Noorah101

Maybe, but keep in mind that a vast number of immigrants are NOT from the western world.

Rene

Noorah101

Yes, as long as it's not the sole purpose of the marriage. If it's a side benefit, then great!

I agree.

I wouldn't really know. I supposed you have to be an immigration officer to really know what subtle red flags to look for. I suppose part of it is whether the marriage is in line with the culture/customs of the couple.

Rene

Michael

Some people also marry for prestige, wealth, or to have children with two parents. Love may never enter into the picture.

Apfelkuchen

It sounds like slummymummy is not asking about immigration as a 'side benefit' (something you get incidentally as a result of marrying for a different reason) but rather immigration benefits being one of a number of explicit reasons for the marriage. In other words, there is a difference between marrying for money and happening to get a Green Card as well, and marrying for money and a Green Card. Is the second scenario still OK?

While I understand the principle, i'd be curious to hear if anyone not from a culture where arranged marriages are common has tested this out by openingly declaring to a ConOff that they don't love their partner but like that person's wallet/uterus/[insert other attribute here] a lot.

slummymummy

Pretty much spot on there. Must be hard to prove the difference though, so if scenario 1 is ok then scenario 2 should be very possible to do even if it's not "ok"...

Rete

Some marry for lust or because lust got the lovely lady in the family way and the father was doing the honorable thing.

Not everyone believes in love. It is an emotion, nothing more, nothing less. A good marriage is not built on love but on mutual respect, companionship and compromise.

Young people think love is everything when often it is lust and the attraction of being with someone different from them. Older folks know that love is an emotion and often is lost as quickly as it is found but a good marriage is one that can endure the day to day adversities that come your way and shared respect.

USCIS does not and never has asked if your marriage is based on love. They ask only that you prove that your marriage is a viable relationship and that is proved by sharing finances, a residence, sometimes having a child together, in other words showing that your lives are joined. It does not ask you to prove your emotional state.

Noorah101

Since immigration officers never ask that question, I doubt anyone has actually stated that they don't love their spouse/partner, unless they offered that information of their own free will (but the standard advice is not to offer any information that was not asked for directly).

Rene

slummymummy

But... surely if the immigration officer gets the "feeling" that there is love involved, he/she is less likely to think that it's not a bona fida marriage? So love might still help someone's case even though it's not officially required?

edit: And... it *might* harm someone's case if the officer gets the feeling that there is no love involved, he/she might be more likely to think that it's not a bona fida marriage.

Rete

Think your supposition is completely off base. How does one get the feeling that someone is in love?

I recall that when we had our 485 interview we were asked to submit one of the proofs of viability. I held the redweld and while looking for it, hubby tried to take the redweld and look for it because it was taking me longer than he thought necessary. I snapped at him: "I know where it is". At that the examiner said: "Now I know you two are married." So she didn't base her decision on seeing an expression of love but one of annoyance.

Love your idealism though.

slummymummy

Haha, that's too funny. Ok I give up... No love is fine but you don't have to offer that information and you won't be asked!

Noorah101

The officers are trained to leave out certain factors such as love, age, race, and religion. They are not supposed to use any of those factors in adjudicating a case. Yes, they might take those factors into looking at the overall scenario, such as a case where a 60-year old American female of Jewish faith marries a 20-year old Pakistani Muslim. Those two people might love each other, but the paramaters are outside the "norm" of their cultural beliefs, so the officer might scrutinize the case, but the officer still cannot deny the case based on any of those factors ALONE. Love alone will not save their case. Nor can their case be denied for lack of love.

If certain other signs are pointing away from an approvable case, love is not going to change the officers mind.

Rene