Vjonehelp Needed

I am a foreign PhD student in the US with a J-1 visa with D/S on my
I-94 departure record and a 2 year home stay requirement after
leaving the US. My IAP-66 expired 2.5 years ago while I was already
done with all the coursework and exams for my PhD, but I had serious
problems with my thesis.

Now I want to submit my thesis to the university and then leave the
country. I give a brief explanation below and I would like to ask if
this is a situation where any leniency could be expected so that it
would be possible for me to get my PhD degree after almost 10 years
of work. In my field and from this university, the PhD is very
valuable.

I would think that I could voluntarily report to the immigration
office here and hope that they would allow me to stay in the US
perhaps 3-4 more months so that I can arrange things with the
university. But going to immigration these days may also mean
detention and deportation the following week, right?

I have no money for an attorney and not even for a bail if detained
(maybe at most $1000). Would I necessarily be detained if I go? I am
desperate because a lot is at stake personally for me in this matter.

I hate to think that it would be impossible to arrange this just by
honestly telling someone that I want to get out of this trouble and
then get out of the country.

I assume that before talking to anyone at the university I need to get
my immigration status in order. Because of the new SEVIS tracking
system I think I am not even allowed register present at the u right
now. I had a good reputation as a student from my PhD coursework and
at this point my thesis is in a very good shape and ready for defense.
(This much I know.) I need the school to take my thesis for a review,
schedule a 30 minute talk and grant me an exception because my
degree application would be a few years late according to the school
rules.

I have no criminal record and have had no employment here while my
IAP-66 has been expired. I am from a western European country and do
not fit the current "terrorist image". (Sorry if this sounded stupid
but I thought it may matter.)

I have only been doing research and writing my thesis for these past
2.5 years. The reason that I did not get my IAP-66 (J1) extended 2.5
years ago was that I was afraid that my extension application would be
rejected. I had worked hard but I always thought my work is not yet
good enough and my advisor never helped or even commented so I kind
of was very uneasy dealing with him. Then came Sept 11 and I got
scared and thought that I really have to be ready and very
convincing with my work to solve this mess. So the reason for me to
stay 2.5 extra years really has been a combination of rather serious
shyness, shame, fear and "writer's block" type problems in my head -
and an advisor problem that I did not address in a timely manner.
During the past 2.5 years I have kept myself registered at the
university but have not talked to anyone there for the fear of being
caught without proper documents.

But now I want to come out and then get out!

Has anybody any idea about how this situation would best be resolved
and about the chances of it being resolved under the current climate?
I know that I have been extemely stupid and the climate today is harsh
but I would think that the seriousness of my violation is not too big
compared to what I would suffer if I am not allowed to submit my
thesis and apply for graduation.

Please give me any thoughts about this, I will not consider it legal
advice.

Sylvia Ottemoeller

"Vjonehelp Needed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > I am a foreign PhD student in the US with a J-1 visa with D/S on my
    > I-94 departure record and a 2 year home stay requirement after
    > leaving the US. My IAP-66 expired 2.5 years ago while I was already
    > done with all the coursework and exams for my PhD, but I had serious
    > problems with my thesis.
    > Now I want to submit my thesis to the university and then leave the
    > country. I give a brief explanation below and I would like to ask if
    > this is a situation where any leniency could be expected so that it
    > would be possible for me to get my PhD degree after almost 10 years
    > of work. In my field and from this university, the PhD is very
    > valuable.
    > I would think that I could voluntarily report to the immigration
    > office here and hope that they would allow me to stay in the US
    > perhaps 3-4 more months so that I can arrange things with the
    > university. But going to immigration these days may also mean
    > detention and deportation the following week, right?

Yes. Do not go to immigration.

    > I have no money for an attorney and not even for a bail if detained
    > (maybe at most $1000). Would I necessarily be detained if I go? I am
    > desperate because a lot is at stake personally for me in this matter.

Not necessarily, but it is better not to take the chance.

    > I hate to think that it would be impossible to arrange this just by
    > honestly telling someone that I want to get out of this trouble and
    > then get out of the country.
    > I assume that before talking to anyone at the university I need to get
    > my immigration status in order.

That is not true at all. The international student advisers that run the
J-1 program have no duty whatsoever to turn you in at this point, and they
are your very best source of help, far better than a government official who
probably knows absolutely nothing about the J-1 exchange visitor program.

If you had been entered into SEVIS, your international office would have to
report you failing to maintain status or failing to extend your stay. But
you have not been entered into SEVIS.

Because of the new SEVIS tracking
    > system I think I am not even allowed register present at the u right
    > now.

For most schools, this is not true. There is no law or regulation
preventing schools from enrolling students who do not hold valid visa or
immigration status. Some schools may have such a *policy,* but even that is
considered unethical in the international education community.

I had a good reputation as a student from my PhD coursework and
    > at this point my thesis is in a very good shape and ready for defense.
    > (This much I know.) I need the school to take my thesis for a review,
    > schedule a 30 minute talk and grant me an exception because my
    > degree application would be a few years late according to the school
    > rules.
    > I have no criminal record and have had no employment here while my
    > IAP-66 has been expired. I am from a western European country and do
    > not fit the current "terrorist image". (Sorry if this sounded stupid
    > but I thought it may matter.)
    > I have only been doing research and writing my thesis for these past
    > 2.5 years. The reason that I did not get my IAP-66 (J1) extended 2.5
    > years ago was that I was afraid that my extension application would be
    > rejected. I had worked hard but I always thought my work is not yet
    > good enough and my advisor never helped or even commented so I kind
    > of was very uneasy dealing with him. Then came Sept 11 and I got
    > scared and thought that I really have to be ready and very
    > convincing with my work to solve this mess. So the reason for me to
    > stay 2.5 extra years really has been a combination of rather serious
    > shyness, shame, fear and "writer's block" type problems in my head -
    > and an advisor problem that I did not address in a timely manner.
    > During the past 2.5 years I have kept myself registered at the
    > university but have not talked to anyone there for the fear of being
    > caught without proper documents.

Your having kept yourself registered may help you. You may have a case for
reinstatement.

    > But now I want to come out and then get out!
    > Has anybody any idea about how this situation would best be resolved
    > and about the chances of it being resolved under the current climate?

You must sit down with an international student adviser, and make a plan,
and follow it.

    > I know that I have been extemely stupid and the climate today is harsh
    > but I would think that the seriousness of my violation is not too big
    > compared to what I would suffer if I am not allowed to submit my
    > thesis and apply for graduation.

If you cannot get yourself reinstated, you may be better off just finishing
the Ph.D. degree and leaving without informing any government agency. I
would also suggest that you consult with a good immigration attorney,
especially if you want to keep the option open of returning to the U.S. If
the international office maintains a list of immigration attorneys for
referral, you may be able to consult with one without charge.

Vjonehelp Needed

Thank you so much for these comments. They are very helpful. I wanted
to ask a bit more about SEVIS since it basically is a big concern for
me right now. I would appreciate any corrections or comments.


    > If you had been entered into SEVIS, your international office would have to
    > report you failing to maintain status or failing to extend your stay. But
    > you have not been entered into SEVIS.

The installment of SEVIS is what prompted my concerns right now and my
thoughts about voluntarily going to immigration. They transferred
their international student records at my University to SEVIS during
the spring. I understand that at the latest this conversion would
happen to me upon registration right now. All IAP-66 forms are
converted to the new SEVIS forms. In my case this will surely be a
big problem because of my expired IAP-66.

My more specific question would be that since my IAP-66 is not valid
does that mean that the international office would not create a SEVIS
record for me at all at this point and thus would not be required to
report me to immigration? Or are they reporting me while trying to
create a SEVIS record and finding out that I am out of status?

I am very concerned about registering now for this fall. Registering
at the U at leat for 1 empty credit is required here every term to
maintain eligibility for graduation. However because of SEVIS I am
tentatively planning not to register for fall right now.


    >> Because of the new SEVIS tracking system I think I am not even
    >> allowed register present at the u right now.

    > For most schools, this is not true. There is no law or regulation
    > preventing schools from enrolling students who do not hold valid visa or
    > immigration status. Some schools may have such a *policy,* but even that is
    > considered unethical in the international education community.

I happen to know that at my university the administrative personnel at
the graduate school level kept good track of this before 2001. I would
assume they are even more careful after 2001.

I have read from the newspaper that there are a a lot of of illegal
immigrants that have gone to high school in the US and then are
continuing at Universities. The question in the news report was
whether they would be allowed to get financial aid. For me this
question sounds extremely strange! I assumed that now with SEVIS in
place, it is impossible to enroll at a university alltogether without
valid papers. I thought nowadays universities will be in big trouble
if they are found not complying with the requirement to report out of
status students.

However, from what you are saying I gather that in my case the school
might have some room to arrange things with me if they want to. Is
this true only assuming that I am not in SEVIS already? I am a bit
confused about the reporting requirements with SEVIS and students
admitted to enroll without valid papers. How is it possible then?

    > Your having kept yourself registered may help you. You may have
    > a case for reinstatement.

There is a J-1 reinstatement procedure but with my 2.5 years out of
status I am not eligible. I found this information on a list of
government rules published in the internet some time ago. So I
thought the way for me to get legal status is through the immigration
office (former INS) that likely would detain me for some days, and
schedule a hearing in front of judge or something. I could submit my
thesis and give a talk while on a pending status waiting for the
hearing and leave before the hearing. This is what I thought I could
do but I know that it is a bit extreme and very risky and I should not
do it.


    > If you cannot get yourself reinstated, you may be better off just finishing
    > the Ph.D. degree and leaving without informing any government agency. I
    > would also suggest that you consult with a good immigration attorney,
    > especially if you want to keep the option open of returning to the U.S.

This is what I have been wondering too for a long long time. The key
here is that I will be finished with my thesis this month. As I said I
want to submit my thesis and leave the country. Only matter that
requires my physical presence is a seminar talk, a 40 minute thesis
defense in front of a 4-5 member committee. This has to be formally
arranged with the graduate school which in my experience is strict
here and likely would not allow me to schedule it if I am out of
status. It would be easy if my seminar could be skipped for any reason
or arranged so that I would not need to be in the USA for that. I
think that I would not need to be in legal status in the USA for other
purposes than arranging an delivering my thesis defense.

As to leaving without informing any government agency, I assume that I
would get my name on some kind of black list in any case and would
expect trouble to enter USA again although because of the "D/S" on
I-94 I would not be subject to the formal bans. Or could I leave
without any track of my status violation? Maybe not after 2001...

Thank you again for the advice you gave earlier!
I would appreciate any additional commnets about when and what the
schools are required to report nowadays, and on any other matters I
raised above...

Sylvia Ottemoeller

"Vjonehelp Needed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > Thank you so much for these comments. They are very helpful. I wanted
    > to ask a bit more about SEVIS since it basically is a big concern for
    > me right now. I would appreciate any corrections or comments.

    > > If you had been entered into SEVIS, your international office would have
to
    > > report you failing to maintain status or failing to extend your stay.
But
    > > you have not been entered into SEVIS.

    > The installment of SEVIS is what prompted my concerns right now and my
    > thoughts about voluntarily going to immigration. They transferred
    > their international student records at my University to SEVIS during
    > the spring.

At a certain point (end of January 2003), all *new* records had to be
created in SEVIS, and new forms had to be SEVIS forms.

When it comes to existing records, the records could be "transferred" only
one at a time. Most universities did this over a period of months. Did
they transfer yours or didn't they? Did they issue you Form DS 2019? If
so, on what date?

I understand that at the latest this conversion would
    > happen to me upon registration right now.

I don't know what this means. All existing J-1 holders, in order to remain
in status, had to be entered into SEVIS and had Form DS 2019 issued by
August 1, 2003. If the form issuance was not done by then, then a kind of
reinstatement must take place to get into valid status.

All IAP-66 forms are
    > converted to the new SEVIS forms. In my case this will surely be a
    > big problem because of my expired IAP-66.
    > My more specific question would be that since my IAP-66 is not valid
    > does that mean that the international office would not create a SEVIS
    > record for me at all at this point and thus would not be required to
    > report me to immigration?

I don't know what they "would" do. Why have you not discovered what they in
fact DID do? Everything depends on that.

Each international office has its own learning curve, its own policy, its
own way of making decisions. Some international offices are not as
sophisticated as others.

The school does not have an obligation to create Form DS 2019 for you.
After all, with your old IAP-66, you might have left the U.S. Also, it is
*not illegal* for a school to enroll a student who does not have valid
nonimmigrant status in the U.S.

At UCLA, every single F-1 and J-1 status holder had to provide fresh
information to the international office before a record was entered into
SEVIS. For example, a current address is required. It would be foolish of
a school to use an old address, especially considering how much students
move around.

If your school did enter you in SEVIS and issue the DS 2019, then they would
have an obligation to report you to SEVIS immediately as having violated
status. It does not make sense for them to have entered you into SEVIS
under these circumstances, especially without consulting you.

Or are they reporting me while trying to
    > create a SEVIS record and finding out that I am out of status?

I don't know what this means.

    > I am very concerned about registering now for this fall. Registering
    > at the U at leat for 1 empty credit is required here every term to
    > maintain eligibility for graduation. However because of SEVIS I am
    > tentatively planning not to register for fall right now.

    > >> Because of the new SEVIS tracking system I think I am not even
    > >> allowed register present at the u right now.
    > > For most schools, this is not true. There is no law or regulation
    > > preventing schools from enrolling students who do not hold valid visa or
    > > immigration status. Some schools may have such a *policy,* but even
that is
    > > considered unethical in the international education community.
    > I happen to know that at my university the administrative personnel at
    > the graduate school level kept good track of this before 2001. I would
    > assume they are even more careful after 2001.

What does that mean, "kept good track"? Does that mean that the school had
a policy of not enrolling persons who did not hold valid nonimmigrant
status?

    > I have read from the newspaper that there are a a lot of of illegal
    > immigrants that have gone to high school in the US and then are
    > continuing at Universities. The question in the news report was
    > whether they would be allowed to get financial aid. For me this
    > question sounds extremely strange! I assumed that now with SEVIS in
    > place, it is impossible to enroll at a university alltogether without
    > valid papers.

Entirely wrong! Maybe there will be a law some day that prevents schools
from enrolling students unless they hold valid status. That is not the case
today.

I thought nowadays universities will be in big trouble
    > if they are found not complying with the requirement to report out of
    > status students.

Universities will be in trouble if they do not comply with SEVIS. SEVIS
does not require reporting of all out of status students. SEVIS requires
that before a student can be issued documents which will allow the student
to obtain F-1 or J-1 status, the school must enter them into SEVIS. After
they are entered into SEVIS, the school must ensure they maintain valid
status, and report any actions which violate the status.

Students generally need F-1 or J-1 visas to enter the U.S. from their home
country and go to school, to have work authorization while going to school,
and to have a future of living legally in the U.S.

However, if a person is already in the U.S., he or she does not obtain F-1
or J-1 status in order to attend school.

    > However, from what you are saying I gather that in my case the school
    > might have some room to arrange things with me if they want to. Is
    > this true only assuming that I am not in SEVIS already? I am a bit
    > confused about the reporting requirements with SEVIS and students
    > admitted to enroll without valid papers. How is it possible then?

I tried to explain it.

    > > Your having kept yourself registered may help you. You may have
    > > a case for reinstatement.
    > There is a J-1 reinstatement procedure but with my 2.5 years out of
    > status I am not eligible. I found this information on a list of
    > government rules published in the internet some time ago. So I
    > thought the way for me to get legal status is through the immigration
    > office (former INS) that likely would detain me for some days, and
    > schedule a hearing in front of judge or something. I could submit my
    > thesis and give a talk while on a pending status waiting for the
    > hearing and leave before the hearing. This is what I thought I could
    > do but I know that it is a bit extreme and very risky and I should not
    > do it.

    > > If you cannot get yourself reinstated, you may be better off just
finishing
    > > the Ph.D. degree and leaving without informing any government agency. I
    > > would also suggest that you consult with a good immigration attorney,
    > > especially if you want to keep the option open of returning to the U.S.
    > This is what I have been wondering too for a long long time. The key
    > here is that I will be finished with my thesis this month. As I said I
    > want to submit my thesis and leave the country. Only matter that
    > requires my physical presence is a seminar talk, a 40 minute thesis
    > defense in front of a 4-5 member committee. This has to be formally
    > arranged with the graduate school which in my experience is strict
    > here and likely would not allow me to schedule it if I am out of
    > status. It would be easy if my seminar could be skipped for any reason
    > or arranged so that I would not need to be in the USA for that. I
    > think that I would not need to be in legal status in the USA for other
    > purposes than arranging an delivering my thesis defense.
    > As to leaving without informing any government agency, I assume that I
    > would get my name on some kind of black list in any case and would
    > expect trouble to enter USA again although because of the "D/S" on
    > I-94 I would not be subject to the formal bans. Or could I leave
    > without any track of my status violation? Maybe not after 2001...

Your leaving the U.S. will not put you on a black list. This is what
happens: if you want to come back to the U.S., you have to fill out forms
which disclose everything.

The fact that you spent the time out of status is not itself a bar to the
issuance of a visa. It is not a ground for inadmissibility, like conviction
for a crime. However, it is evidence that you don't have temporary
intention, so you probably will not get a visa requiring temporary
intention, like a B-2 visa or another J-1 visa, for years. However, you
could probably get an H-1B visa, which allows permanent intent.

    > Thank you again for the advice you gave earlier!
    > I would appreciate any additional commnets about when and what the
    > schools are required to report nowadays, and on any other matters I
    > raised above...

Sylvia Ottemoeller

"Sylvia Ottemoeller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > "Vjonehelp Needed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Thank you so much for these comments. They are very helpful. I wanted
    > > to ask a bit more about SEVIS since it basically is a big concern for
    > > me right now. I would appreciate any corrections or comments.
    > > > If you had been entered into SEVIS, your international office would
have to
    > > > report you failing to maintain status or failing to extend your stay.
But
    > > > you have not been entered into SEVIS.
    > > The installment of SEVIS is what prompted my concerns right now and my
    > > thoughts about voluntarily going to immigration. They transferred
    > > their international student records at my University to SEVIS during
    > > the spring.
    > At a certain point (end of January 2003), all *new* records had to be
    > created in SEVIS, and new forms had to be SEVIS forms.
    > When it comes to existing records, the records could be "transferred" only
    > one at a time. Most universities did this over a period of months. Did
    > they transfer yours or didn't they? Did they issue you Form DS 2019? If
    > so, on what date?
    > I understand that at the latest this conversion would
    > > happen to me upon registration right now.
    > I don't know what this means. All existing J-1 holders, in order to
remain
    > in status, had to be entered into SEVIS and had Form DS 2019 issued by
    > August 1, 2003. If the form issuance was not done by then, then a kind of
    > reinstatement must take place to get into valid status.
    > All IAP-66 forms are
    > > converted to the new SEVIS forms. In my case this will surely be a
    > > big problem because of my expired IAP-66.
    > >
    > > My more specific question would be that since my IAP-66 is not valid
    > > does that mean that the international office would not create a SEVIS
    > > record for me at all at this point and thus would not be required to
    > > report me to immigration?
    > I don't know what they "would" do. Why have you not discovered what they
in
    > fact DID do? Everything depends on that.
    > Each international office has its own learning curve, its own policy, its
    > own way of making decisions. Some international offices are not as
    > sophisticated as others.
    > The school does not have an obligation to create Form DS 2019 for you.
    > After all, with your old IAP-66, you might have left the U.S. Also, it is
    > *not illegal* for a school to enroll a student who does not have valid
    > nonimmigrant status in the U.S.

    > > I am very concerned about registering now for this fall. Registering
    > > at the U at leat for 1 empty credit is required here every term to
    > > maintain eligibility for graduation. However because of SEVIS I am
    > > tentatively planning not to register for fall right now.
    > > >> Because of the new SEVIS tracking system I think I am not even
    > > >> allowed register present at the u right now.
    > >
    > > > For most schools, this is not true. There is no law or regulation
    > > > preventing schools from enrolling students who do not hold valid visa
or
    > > > immigration status. Some schools may have such a *policy,* but even
that is
    > > > considered unethical in the international education community.
    > >
    > > I happen to know that at my university the administrative personnel at
    > > the graduate school level kept good track of this before 2001. I would
    > > assume they are even more careful after 2001.
    > What does that mean, "kept good track"? Does that mean that the school
had
    > a policy of not enrolling persons who did not hold valid nonimmigrant
    > status?
    > > I have read from the newspaper that there are a a lot of of illegal
    > > immigrants that have gone to high school in the US and then are
    > > continuing at Universities. The question in the news report was
    > > whether they would be allowed to get financial aid. For me this
    > > question sounds extremely strange! I assumed that now with SEVIS in
    > > place, it is impossible to enroll at a university alltogether without
    > > valid papers.
    > Entirely wrong! Maybe there will be a law some day that prevents schools
    > from enrolling students unless they hold valid status. That is not the
case
    > today.

There are two fairly recent regulations which provide for a violation of the
temporary status of a person who pursues a course of study or "full time"
study:

8 CFR Section 214.2 (b)(7)

(7) Enrollment in a course of study prohibited. An alien who is admitted as,
or changes status to, a B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrant on or after April 12, 2002,
or who files a request to extend the period of authorized stay in B-1 or B-2
nonimmigrant status on or after such date, violates the conditions of his or
her B-1 or B-2
status if the alien enrolls in a course of study. Such an alien who desires
to enroll in a course of study must either obtain an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant
visa from a consular officer abroad and seek readmission to the United
States, or apply for and obtain a change of status under section 248 of the
Act and 8 CFR part 248. The alien may not enroll in the course of study
until the Service has admitted the alien as an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant or
has approved the alien's application under part 248 of this chapter and
changed the alien's status to that of an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant.

8 CFR Section 214.2 (f)(15)

(A) The F-2 spouse of an F-1 student may not engage in full time study, and
the F-2 child may only engage in full time study if the study is in an
elementary or secondary school (kindergarten through twelfth grade). The F-2
spouse and child may engage in study that is avocational or recreational in
nature.
__________________


However, please note that the school itself does not violate any law or
regulation for enrolling these persons! Schools often have a policy of not
enrolling such persons for ethical reasons.

    > I thought nowadays universities will be in big trouble
    > > if they are found not complying with the requirement to report out of
    > > status students.
    > Universities will be in trouble if they do not comply with SEVIS. SEVIS
    > does not require reporting of all out of status students. SEVIS requires
    > that before a student can be issued documents which will allow the student
    > to obtain F-1 or J-1 status, the school must enter them into SEVIS. After
    > they are entered into SEVIS, the school must ensure they maintain valid
    > status, and report any actions which violate the status.
    > Students generally need F-1 or J-1 visas to enter the U.S. from their home
    > country and go to school, to have work authorization while going to
school,
    > and to have a future of living legally in the U.S.
    > However, if a person is already in the U.S., he or she does not obtain F-1
    > or J-1 status in order to attend school.

This came out wrong, somehow. What I mean is that he or she does not have
to obtain F-1 or J-1 status in order to attend school.

Vjonehelp Needed

<[email protected]> wrote...
    > All existing J-1 holders, in order to remain in status, had to be
    > entered into SEVIS and had Form DS 2019 issued by August 1, 2003.

Yes, students at my U were asked to request SEVIS documents before
August 1. And my situation being what it is, I did not do anything.
The instructions warned that if current students do not do anything,
they will be out of status August 1. I would think this implies that
the international office staff is not entering students without
their request, and as you pointed out, there is no reason why they
would have entered me into SEVIS at this point. Yes, I need to go
and talk to them and find out for sure.

My perception was totally incorrect because I thought that the rules
that came with SEVIS would also have mandated the international office
to enter me into SEVIS and report me to immigration if they learned
that I am still a student here and out of status.

    > What does that mean, "kept good track"? Does that mean that the
    > school had a policy of not enrolling persons who did not hold valid
    > nonimmigrant status?

The graduate school refused to approve a student's petition of some
nature and told that person to first obtain a valid IAP-66 which she
had let expire by mistake. So they do check immigration status, and I
guess I just have to hope that they would not absolute require that
(valid status) in my case. My best chance to get my degree would be
to sort things out with the U through the international student
office and hope it could be done without trying to get me back
into valid status. If valid papers are insisted then I think I am
in much deeper trouble as I cant see possibilities for a valid
reinstatement either by applying in the USA (due to my 2.5 years out
of status) or re-entering with new papers (due to my 2 year home
residency requirement and to my serious status violation).

Thank you Sylvia for your comments. I realize I may have been writing a
bit too much about my fears and perceptions without really exactly
knowing how thing are. So if there is someone reading these posts,
that person should pay more attention to what has been said in
those answers to my questions.