Separation of State & Church.
Oct 11th 2008, 5:30 am
#1
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Separation of State & Church.
This issue has always confused me a little whilst living in the US it seems very much so that most people around here want to have their cake and eat it too. For example, store music at Christmas, the religious songs are instrumental only so not to offend anyone however in the city I work in, on religious grounds you can not buy liquor on a Sunday 
Anyhow a week or so ago I had a customer at work (who I was giving change to) tell me not to bother giving her any $1 coins (Grand Rapids is one of the test sites for the dollar coin, so we have a lot of them about right now). She then went on to tell me that she was absolutly refusing to have any of the coins because they do not have the wording 'In God We Trust' printed on them in the same way that the $1 bill has. She also told me she was part of a group forwarding emails asking people to boycott the coin for the same reason.
Interesting that a country that was basically founded by people wanting to escape religious oppression is so caught up in religion.
Anyhow a week or so ago I had a customer at work (who I was giving change to) tell me not to bother giving her any $1 coins (Grand Rapids is one of the test sites for the dollar coin, so we have a lot of them about right now). She then went on to tell me that she was absolutly refusing to have any of the coins because they do not have the wording 'In God We Trust' printed on them in the same way that the $1 bill has. She also told me she was part of a group forwarding emails asking people to boycott the coin for the same reason.
Interesting that a country that was basically founded by people wanting to escape religious oppression is so caught up in religion.
Oct 11th 2008, 11:21 am
#2
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
This issue has always confused me a little whilst living in the US it seems very much so that most people around here want to have their cake and eat it too. For example, store music at Christmas, the religious songs are instrumental only so not to offend anyone however in the city I work in, on religious grounds you can not buy liquor on a Sunday
Anyhow a week or so ago I had a customer at work (who I was giving change to) tell me not to bother giving her any $1 coins (Grand Rapids is one of the test sites for the dollar coin, so we have a lot of them about right now). She then went on to tell me that she was absolutly refusing to have any of the coins because they do not have the wording 'In God We Trust' printed on them in the same way that the $1 bill has. She also told me she was part of a group forwarding emails asking people to boycott the coin for the same reason.
Interesting that a country that was basically founded by people wanting to escape religious oppression is so caught up in religion.
Anyhow a week or so ago I had a customer at work (who I was giving change to) tell me not to bother giving her any $1 coins (Grand Rapids is one of the test sites for the dollar coin, so we have a lot of them about right now). She then went on to tell me that she was absolutly refusing to have any of the coins because they do not have the wording 'In God We Trust' printed on them in the same way that the $1 bill has. She also told me she was part of a group forwarding emails asking people to boycott the coin for the same reason.
Interesting that a country that was basically founded by people wanting to escape religious oppression is so caught up in religion.
And after all, their god is greater than our constitution, dontcha know.
Oct 11th 2008, 12:16 pm
#3
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Oct 11th 2008, 1:29 pm
#4
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
Hahahaha
I hope your customer was buying some glasses, as the coins do have 'In God we Trust' written on them - on the rim.....
I hope your customer was buying some glasses, as the coins do have 'In God we Trust' written on them - on the rim.....
Oct 11th 2008, 1:38 pm
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Oct 11th 2008, 2:54 pm
#6
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
I am assuming you are talking about the presidential dollar coins, since they are the most recent version of it.
That lady must have gotten a couple things confused, prior to 2009 they do have in God We Trust on them, but its not in the most prominent place. (starting is 2009 its moved to a more prominent place on the coin)
However there was a minting error on the George Washington coin from the Philadelphia mint where an unknown amount of coins were put into circulation with In God We Trust, E Pluribus Unum, and the mint mark and year missing from the coin.
http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/inde...release&ID=755
All US Presidents who qualify will get a coin Right now its all presidents through Ford and Reagan. (Reagan will have a coin, but its too early to say when it will be released, if Carter dies before 2014 his coin will be released before Reagan's.)
Living presidents do not qualify and must have been dead at least 2 years prior to the issue of the coin.
That lady must have gotten a couple things confused, prior to 2009 they do have in God We Trust on them, but its not in the most prominent place. (starting is 2009 its moved to a more prominent place on the coin)
However there was a minting error on the George Washington coin from the Philadelphia mint where an unknown amount of coins were put into circulation with In God We Trust, E Pluribus Unum, and the mint mark and year missing from the coin.
http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/inde...release&ID=755
All US Presidents who qualify will get a coin Right now its all presidents through Ford and Reagan. (Reagan will have a coin, but its too early to say when it will be released, if Carter dies before 2014 his coin will be released before Reagan's.)
Living presidents do not qualify and must have been dead at least 2 years prior to the issue of the coin.
Last edited by scrubbedexpat091; Oct 11th 2008 at 3:15 pm.
Oct 11th 2008, 2:55 pm
#7
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
In my opinion doesn't matter whether 'In God We Trust' is written on there or not I honestly believe money is the root of all evil anyways.
Oct 11th 2008, 3:17 pm
#8
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
It is confusing. Freedom of religion is expressed in the First Amendment of the Constitution. However, it has two clauses which are somewhat in tension: the "establishment" clause and the "free exercise" clause.
The idea is that there will be no State church, and the state won't interfere with your religion. HRH ERII is the UK Head of State and the head of the Church of England. In the not so distant past, it was not allowed to be Catholic or Jewish in England.
That is the context in which the amendment was passed. Most of the dispute is not the practice of religion but more to how much government can get into it. In context, a reference to the generic "god" might be OK -- WHICH god are they talking about or WHOSE god are they talking about? Now lets say the coinage had a reference to Jesus Christ and a crucifix thereon -- I would think that that might run afoul of the establishment clause.
One little thing that amused me about the "Ten Commandments" cases, to my eye, all the listings were quite in error. Take a look at http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.as...encommandments. It is interesting to note that Rev. Paisley's charts fail to mention the First Commandment and drop it out of the list and don't even number it. That is his privilege to do that -- but would listing EITHER list be "establishment of religion."
On the alcohol thing -- that is an exception to Freedom of Religion. The 21st Amendment's repeal of the 18th Amendment controls that. The 21st allows for local option on alcohol. There has been some cases from the Supremes on the extent of local control -- in 2005 there was one which held that the 21st Amendment did not allow for discrimination between in-state and out-state retailers.
Oct 11th 2008, 4:46 pm
#9
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
Oct 11th 2008, 4:57 pm
#10
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
Oct 11th 2008, 5:04 pm
#11
Septicity
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
Difficult for me to say as a non-believer. I've met some who I've personally decided are genuine "(wo)men of god". The common denominator seemed to be a great inner peace. So that's Paisley out! Nevertheless, he is a fascinating subject.
Oct 11th 2008, 5:24 pm
#12
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
Hi:
It is confusing. Freedom of religion is expressed in the First Amendment of the Constitution. However, it has two clauses which are somewhat in tension: the "establishment" clause and the "free exercise" clause.
The idea is that there will be no State church, and the state won't interfere with your religion. HRH ERII is the UK Head of State and the head of the Church of England. In the not so distant past, it was not allowed to be Catholic or Jewish in England.
That is the context in which the amendment was passed. Most of the dispute is not the practice of religion but more to how much government can get into it. In context, a reference to the generic "god" might be OK -- WHICH god are they talking about or WHOSE god are they talking about? Now lets say the coinage had a reference to Jesus Christ and a crucifix thereon -- I would think that that might run afoul of the establishment clause.
One little thing that amused me about the "Ten Commandments" cases, to my eye, all the listings were quite in error. Take a look at http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.as...encommandments. It is interesting to note that Rev. Paisley's charts fail to mention the First Commandment and drop it out of the list and don't even number it. That is his privilege to do that -- but would listing EITHER list be "establishment of religion."
On the alcohol thing -- that is an exception to Freedom of Religion. The 21st Amendment's repeal of the 18th Amendment controls that. The 21st allows for local option on alcohol. There has been some cases from the Supremes on the extent of local control -- in 2005 there was one which held that the 21st Amendment did not allow for discrimination between in-state and out-state retailers.
It is confusing. Freedom of religion is expressed in the First Amendment of the Constitution. However, it has two clauses which are somewhat in tension: the "establishment" clause and the "free exercise" clause.
The idea is that there will be no State church, and the state won't interfere with your religion. HRH ERII is the UK Head of State and the head of the Church of England. In the not so distant past, it was not allowed to be Catholic or Jewish in England.
That is the context in which the amendment was passed. Most of the dispute is not the practice of religion but more to how much government can get into it. In context, a reference to the generic "god" might be OK -- WHICH god are they talking about or WHOSE god are they talking about? Now lets say the coinage had a reference to Jesus Christ and a crucifix thereon -- I would think that that might run afoul of the establishment clause.
One little thing that amused me about the "Ten Commandments" cases, to my eye, all the listings were quite in error. Take a look at http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.as...encommandments. It is interesting to note that Rev. Paisley's charts fail to mention the First Commandment and drop it out of the list and don't even number it. That is his privilege to do that -- but would listing EITHER list be "establishment of religion."
On the alcohol thing -- that is an exception to Freedom of Religion. The 21st Amendment's repeal of the 18th Amendment controls that. The 21st allows for local option on alcohol. There has been some cases from the Supremes on the extent of local control -- in 2005 there was one which held that the 21st Amendment did not allow for discrimination between in-state and out-state retailers.
and it's been a very long time that catholics/jews were 'illegal'
Oct 11th 2008, 7:11 pm
#15
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Re: Separation of State & Church.
A "long time," eh?
The first amendment dates from 1791. English Catholics were emancipated in 1829 and English Jews in 1858. The Jews were expelled in the Middle Ages and really didn't come back until 1656 with the permission of Oliver Cromwell. But the community was small. Jumping the Channel, the Dreyfus affair was in the 1890's and directly lead to the founding of the modern Zionist movement. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...4/J_accuse.jpg
An exchange of correspondence regarding the Jews of Newport, Rhode Island, members of the Touro Synagogue from 1790 is of interest. They had recently been under British jurisdiction. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_to_Touro_Synagogue
Last edited by Folinskyinla; Oct 11th 2008 at 7:17 pm. Reason: correct small typo