gajegeja

I am a dual Canadian and American citizen who was born in Canada to a Canadian father and an American (landed immigrant in Canada) mother who later became a Canadian citizen. I have never resided in the US.

I am not interested in having any obligations to the United States and accordingly would like to renounce my citizenship. The primary reason I haven't yet is that I don't want to end up in some database somewhere and get myself arrested should I visit the US at any point.

In particular, I have not registered for Selective Service despite being a male U.S. citizen between 18 and 26, and am not interested in doing so or in finding myself obligated to do so. I understand that I cannot get into trouble for this while I am in Canada, but again, not so delighted at the prospect of crossing the border anytime soon.

If I were to renounce my citizenship, would I still be liable for not having registered while I was still an American citizen required to register? Does anyone have any experience with getting in trouble while crossing the border?

Conversely, would attempting to renounce my citizenship make it *more risky for me to cross the border as it would make it more likely, not less, for my (former) citizenship to be registered and noticed? (Right now, the only document I have attesting to my American citizenship is my Certificate of Birth Abroad. I do not have an American passport, though I realize it's illegal for an American citizen to attempt to enter the U.S. on a 'foreign' passport.)

As you can tell, I'm rather paranoid about this and I am essentially planning to forgo any travel to the US until I get this settled. I've enjoyed all of the many trips I've made to the US, but the cases of Maher Arar and Berna Cruz are fresh in my mind and I'm aware that getting the wrong INS official can land you in a world of hurt.

gajegeja

I should have also asked: what will be requested of me when I apply to renounce my American citizenship, and will I become liable for anything else (taxes, etc)?

JAJ

Read this page from the State Dept website:
http://travel.state.gov/law/renunciation.html

I would say that renouncing US citizenship is a pretty silly idea and is something you may regret later on. It is not possible to get back US citizenship if you later change your mind - and you've no idea of the circumstances in which you might want to live in the US for a while (eg maybe a great contract or career opportunity).

Jeremy

gajegeja

Thanks for your advice. However, I find it difficult to foresee any circumstance in which I would prefer to live in the United States than Canada. Among other reasons, I'm not interested in paying American taxes, drawing American benefits, or being required to enter the US on an American passport, as I understand many American citizens abroad have recently had no end of problems attempting to do so.

The website, though informative, was frustratingly vague (it "may" have no effect on my military/tax status, which I find bizarre -- how could they tax or draft a foreign national who's not resident in the US? -- and which is not described in any more depth in the Selective Service website.)

I'm reluctant to bring this topic up with the local consulate, as (once again) I'm not interested in giving them my name or address.

Thanks for putting up with my paranoia and, again, for your advice and the link.

Socialism is a Mental Disease

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:15:32 +0000, gajegeja
<member32022@british_expats.com> wrote:
    >Thanks for your advice. However, I find it difficult to foresee any
    >circumstance in which I would prefer to live in the United States than
    >Canada.

Yes, please, do renounce your citizenship. The US doesn't need your
kind.



--
"A society that robs an individual of the product of his
effort... is... a mob held together by institutionalized
gang rule." -- Ayn Rand

Azlaw

Agreed,

Renounce as quickly as possible, we have enough liberal pussies inside
the US, we certainly do not need any more. Military service certainly
will not be a concern for you in Canada since the US is your only
viable Military option.



On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 03:14:56 +0000, gajegeja
<member32022@british_expats.com> wrote:

    >I am a dual Canadian and American citizen who was born in Canada to a
    >Canadian father and an American (landed immigrant in Canada) mother who
    >later became a Canadian citizen. I have never resided in the US.
    >I am not interested in having any obligations to the United States and
    >accordingly would like to renounce my citizenship. The primary reason I
    >haven't yet is that I don't want to end up in some database somewhere
    >and get myself arrested should I visit the US at any point.
    >In particular, I have not registered for Selective Service despite being
    >a male U.S. citizen between 18 and 26, and am not interested in doing so
    >or in finding myself obligated to do so. I understand that I cannot get
    >into trouble for this while I am in Canada, but again, not so delighted
    >at the prospect of crossing the border anytime soon.
    >If I were to renounce my citizenship, would I still be liable for not
    >having registered while I was still an American citizen required to
    >register? Does anyone have any experience with getting in trouble while
    >crossing the border?
    >Conversely, would attempting to renounce my citizenship make it *more
    >risky for me to cross the border as it would make it more likely, not
    >less, for my (former) citizenship to be registered and noticed? (Right
    >now, the only document I have attesting to my American citizenship is my
    >Certificate of Birth Abroad. I do not have an American passport, though
    >I realize it's illegal for an American citizen to attempt to enter the
    >U.S. on a 'foreign' passport.)
    >As you can tell, I'm rather paranoid about this and I am essentially
    >planning to forgo any travel to the US until I get this settled. I've
    >enjoyed all of the many trips I've made to the US, but the cases of
    >Maher Arar and Berna Cruz are fresh in my mind and I'm aware that
    >getting the wrong INS official can land you in a world of hurt.

scrubbedexpat099

Did your parents register you with US authorities after birth?

Do you have a US passport?

Just wondering because if No it might be a moot point anyway.

gajegeja

Yes, and I know my mother applied for a social security number for me, for her tax preparations.

No, I've never applied for one.

scrubbedexpat099

So your Mother has by the sound of it submitted her returns to the IRS evry year.

As I understand the position you would need a US passport to enter the US as you could not do so with your Canadian.

Well you could back file yout US tax returns, and register for Selective Service. there seems many who do not even know about SS, I have not heard of this being a big issue but not really a topic that could be answered on this board.

You are outside the reach of Uncle Sam and I would agree with the other posters, you never know quite what life will throw at you, it might come in handy some day.

If you do not wish to come to the US, why bother with the doing anything, if you do, coming in as a USC will be less hassle.

gajegeja

I've entered the US a number of times using a Canadian passport without disclosing my American citizenship. Mainly, I shudder at the thought of having to explain either a dual citizenship, or else, if I were to use a US passport, what I've been doing in Canada for the last twenty-odd years ("living here") to a hostile border guard. I've heard horror stories from American expats who've returned to the states to be grilled for a half-hour as to what they think they've been doing, presuming to live in a foreign country, when they're US citizens.

As explained, I would prefer neither to pay any further American taxes, nor to enjoy any American benefits, nor to register for Selective Service, and I'd like to know whether renouncing my citizenship or just laying low is the best way to accomplish that goal while exposing myself to a minimum of legal woes.

(A side thought... what if I were to register for S.S. and _then_ renounce my citizenship?)

Actually, it almost seems to me as though if I were to want to stay in the US for an extended period, it would be better not to have been a citizen and therefore avoid having evaded taxes between now and then; it seems as though keeping my head down and hoping nobody notices me would be a good way of opening myself up to a world of hurt, and renouncing my citizenship would be a way of keeping things above-board. But my inexperience in such matters compels me to ask if this is so.

CPW

I have to say that this has many of the features of an 'urban myth'. Are you sure that there wasn't some other reason for any problems they encountered. I know a number of US citizens who live abroad (mainly in the UK or Australia), and none of them has ever reported the slightest difficulty on entering the US.

gajegeja

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/....php?p=2368998 Here's the thread from a board I frequent.

Basically, from what I can tell, the simplest and most troubleproof way for me enter the US is as a non-American, Canadian citizen travelling on a Canadian passport (the way I always have in the past, except for the non-American part, albeit kept under my hat.)

What I'd like to know is if renouncing my citizenship is likely to lead to more, or fewer, problems at the border when I travel on a Canadian passport; i.e. will it raise some kind of special "THIS DUDE RENOUNCED HIS CITIZENSHIP! CHECK EXTRA THOROUGHLY FOR EVIL SUBVERSION!" flag in their computer.

But really, the border-crossing thing is mainly consequential from the taxes and selective service thing.

JAJ

Thewre are many more 'horror stories' about non-US citizens encountering problems at the US border.

Most people here are going to think you're insane to want to renounce US citizenship.

Jeremy

crg

He will most likely have problems if he renounces. He stated:

"As explained, I would prefer neither to pay any further American taxes, nor to enjoy any American benefits"

He would become inadmissible to the US for life pursuant to section 212(a)(10)(E) of the INA as an alien who renounced US citizenship to avoid taxation by the US.

He wouldn't be able to even visit the United States again unless he could prove that he didn't renounce to avoid paying taxes. If he seeks entry, he would be subject to administrative arrest, detention, and a removal hearing before an immigration judge. If he seeks entry again after being ordered removed, then it would be a federal criminal offense and could lead to significant jail time.

gajegeja

Well, I guess, since most people here are trying to get in ^_^ I just put the thread here because I thought the people who knew about U.S. citizenship would probably be here. Looks like I was right, even if it is rather at cross purposes

Sheesh. How would I prove that? Is this about *not being required to pay* American taxes as a non-citizen, or *evading* American taxes (i.e. can I avoid this problem by settling up fair and square before I renounce, which I planned to do anyway)?

Jeez, I thought it was fairly common for a dual citizen to choose one or the other. I don't want to be barred from the country, but then again I'm not thrilled at spending the rest of my life dealing with the bureaucracy of a country where I've never resided on the off-chance that I might want to visit it someday (for my grandparents' funerals, for example, God forbid).