Postponing an oath ceremony
Mar 22nd 2007, 2:11 pm
#16
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 51
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
I have a somewhat academic curiousity as what would happen when a US citizen attempts to enter the US without a US passport. I mean, as a citizen, one obviously has the right to pass the border even if one doesn't have the paperwork.
Suppose you were abroad on vacation and lost your passport; there must be a way to get a new temporary one to return to the US, and I would expect similar protocols to apply if you show up at a port of entry without paperwork.
I expect, at best, a potentially lengthy confinement would arise while your status was evaluated.
Either way, if a UK/US citizen entered on a UK passport, what visa would you use? The VWP, presumably, and who knows what kind of alarms that might set off with Homeland Security.
Not an experiment I'm prepared to execute ...
Suppose you were abroad on vacation and lost your passport; there must be a way to get a new temporary one to return to the US, and I would expect similar protocols to apply if you show up at a port of entry without paperwork.
I expect, at best, a potentially lengthy confinement would arise while your status was evaluated.
Either way, if a UK/US citizen entered on a UK passport, what visa would you use? The VWP, presumably, and who knows what kind of alarms that might set off with Homeland Security.
Not an experiment I'm prepared to execute ...
Mar 22nd 2007, 2:18 pm
#17
SUPER MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88,029
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
I have a somewhat academic curiousity as what would happen when a US citizen attempts to enter the US without a US passport. I mean, as a citizen, one obviously has the right to pass the border even if one doesn't have the paperwork.
Suppose you were abroad on vacation and lost your passport; there must be a way to get a new temporary one to return to the US, and I would expect similar protocols to apply if you show up at a port of entry without paperwork.
I expect, at best, a potentially lengthy confinement would arise while your status was evaluated.
Either way, if a UK/US citizen entered on a UK passport, what visa would you use? The VWP, presumably, and who knows what kind of alarms that might set off with Homeland Security.
Not an experiment I'm prepared to execute ...
Suppose you were abroad on vacation and lost your passport; there must be a way to get a new temporary one to return to the US, and I would expect similar protocols to apply if you show up at a port of entry without paperwork.
I expect, at best, a potentially lengthy confinement would arise while your status was evaluated.
Either way, if a UK/US citizen entered on a UK passport, what visa would you use? The VWP, presumably, and who knows what kind of alarms that might set off with Homeland Security.
Not an experiment I'm prepared to execute ...
Last edited by Jerseygirl; Mar 22nd 2007 at 2:22 pm.
Mar 22nd 2007, 3:17 pm
#18
Concierge
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,403
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
The US Consulate can issue a temporary or single use white passport for your use in returning to the US if you have lost and/or had your US Passport stolen.
I have a somewhat academic curiousity as what would happen when a US citizen attempts to enter the US without a US passport. I mean, as a citizen, one obviously has the right to pass the border even if one doesn't have the paperwork.
Suppose you were abroad on vacation and lost your passport; there must be a way to get a new temporary one to return to the US, and I would expect similar protocols to apply if you show up at a port of entry without paperwork.
I expect, at best, a potentially lengthy confinement would arise while your status was evaluated.
Either way, if a UK/US citizen entered on a UK passport, what visa would you use? The VWP, presumably, and who knows what kind of alarms that might set off with Homeland Security.
Not an experiment I'm prepared to execute ...
Suppose you were abroad on vacation and lost your passport; there must be a way to get a new temporary one to return to the US, and I would expect similar protocols to apply if you show up at a port of entry without paperwork.
I expect, at best, a potentially lengthy confinement would arise while your status was evaluated.
Either way, if a UK/US citizen entered on a UK passport, what visa would you use? The VWP, presumably, and who knows what kind of alarms that might set off with Homeland Security.
Not an experiment I'm prepared to execute ...
Mar 22nd 2007, 4:53 pm
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
> Hi Jenney,> Now that passports will be required for all USCs traveling
> > to Canada, Mexico, etc. starting in January 2008...
>
> Starting *as soon as* January 2008...
And in fact, passports have been required for air travel to the US,
even from Canada and Mexico since January 2007.
January 2008 is the current deadline for when passports will be
required at the land borders.
> > to Canada, Mexico, etc. starting in January 2008...
>
> Starting *as soon as* January 2008...
And in fact, passports have been required for air travel to the US,
even from Canada and Mexico since January 2007.
January 2008 is the current deadline for when passports will be
required at the land borders.
Mar 22nd 2007, 4:57 pm
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
>
> From what I can gather...once you are a USC you are only a USC as far as
> Immigration is concerned. You are required to travel in and out of the
> US on a US PP only.
Yes, the US requires that if a person holds US citizenship then he
must use a US passport, and not a foreign one, to enter the US.
> From what I can gather...once you are a USC you are only a USC as far as
> Immigration is concerned. You are required to travel in and out of the
> US on a US PP only.
Yes, the US requires that if a person holds US citizenship then he
must use a US passport, and not a foreign one, to enter the US.
Mar 22nd 2007, 5:08 pm
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
On Mar 19, 10:41 pm, leedsPaddy <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > My daughter became a USC at the beginning of Dec 2006...she received
> > her PP mid February. The official at the ceremony said that now
> > you're USC's you will not be able to travel outside the US without a
> > US PP....the certificate will not suffice. At present you can travel
> > in and out of Canada by road with ID...she took her UK PP...a
> > notorised copy of her certificate of naturalization...NJ drivers
> > licence and she was still given a hard time at the US/Canadian border.
> > I dread to think what would have happened if she'd come back into the
> > US by air....even from Canada.
>
> Please someone explain to me why people are given a hard time at US
> airports when you can show us citizenship etc but don't have a US
> passport but have a british passport?
Because US law says that persons who hold US citizenship must enter
the US using a US passport.
Go to
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...5----000-.html
In section (b) it says:
"Except as otherwise provided by the President and subject to such
limitations and exceptions as the President may authorize and
prescribe, it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States
to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the
United States unless he bears a valid United States passport."
The fact that the person may hold another passport and be able to
present alternate proof of US citizenship is immaterial, because a US
passport is required when the person has US citizenship, period.
> It seems to me that US immigration
> authorities are going to be faced a lot more with this situation
> especially with the back log at the passport agency. I mean what are
> they going to do when you arrive back in the US with your citizenship
> certificate.........deport you?
They can fine you. It's at their discretion. Plus, some people might
find it difficult to even get to the US, if their passport is from a
country that requires a visa to travel to the US. Such a person would
not be allowed to board an airplane because he would not possess a US
visa. If they are from a visa-waiver country or Canada, then they
would probably be able to board, but they would definitely be subject
to a fine, and extra questioning, from US immigration.
> It maybe a stupid suggestion but is it possible to get a
> US passport from the US consulate in London? If it was and they could do
> it before you returned to the US, couldn't you just leave the country on
> a british passport?
You could, although note that the regulation quoted above requires the
US citizen to have a passport when both entering and leaving the US.
A person applying for a US passport abroad would be asked to present
the US passport he had when leaving the US.
wrote:
> > My daughter became a USC at the beginning of Dec 2006...she received
> > her PP mid February. The official at the ceremony said that now
> > you're USC's you will not be able to travel outside the US without a
> > US PP....the certificate will not suffice. At present you can travel
> > in and out of Canada by road with ID...she took her UK PP...a
> > notorised copy of her certificate of naturalization...NJ drivers
> > licence and she was still given a hard time at the US/Canadian border.
> > I dread to think what would have happened if she'd come back into the
> > US by air....even from Canada.
>
> Please someone explain to me why people are given a hard time at US
> airports when you can show us citizenship etc but don't have a US
> passport but have a british passport?
Because US law says that persons who hold US citizenship must enter
the US using a US passport.
Go to
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...5----000-.html
In section (b) it says:
"Except as otherwise provided by the President and subject to such
limitations and exceptions as the President may authorize and
prescribe, it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States
to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the
United States unless he bears a valid United States passport."
The fact that the person may hold another passport and be able to
present alternate proof of US citizenship is immaterial, because a US
passport is required when the person has US citizenship, period.
> It seems to me that US immigration
> authorities are going to be faced a lot more with this situation
> especially with the back log at the passport agency. I mean what are
> they going to do when you arrive back in the US with your citizenship
> certificate.........deport you?
They can fine you. It's at their discretion. Plus, some people might
find it difficult to even get to the US, if their passport is from a
country that requires a visa to travel to the US. Such a person would
not be allowed to board an airplane because he would not possess a US
visa. If they are from a visa-waiver country or Canada, then they
would probably be able to board, but they would definitely be subject
to a fine, and extra questioning, from US immigration.
> It maybe a stupid suggestion but is it possible to get a
> US passport from the US consulate in London? If it was and they could do
> it before you returned to the US, couldn't you just leave the country on
> a british passport?
You could, although note that the regulation quoted above requires the
US citizen to have a passport when both entering and leaving the US.
A person applying for a US passport abroad would be asked to present
the US passport he had when leaving the US.
Mar 22nd 2007, 5:11 pm
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
On Mar 22, 9:19 am, Rete <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:30:56 -0700, Denis
> > <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > >The odds of me getting a passport in time are way too long for my
> > >liking
> > >and there is no way I'm going to relinquish my certificate of
> > >naturalization so I'm just going to have to hope and pray that it
> > >will get
> > >me back in on my return!
>
> >http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p...753.htmlsays:-
>
> > Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport
> > to
> > enter and leave the United States.
> > --
> > Lansbury
> >www.uk-air.net
> > FAQs for the alt.travel.uk.air newsgroup
>
> You don't need a passport (from any country) to leave the US.
There's no formal passport control for US citizens when leaving the
US, but the law still says that a US citizen must be in possession of
a US passport when leaving the US.
> > On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:30:56 -0700, Denis
> > <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > >The odds of me getting a passport in time are way too long for my
> > >liking
> > >and there is no way I'm going to relinquish my certificate of
> > >naturalization so I'm just going to have to hope and pray that it
> > >will get
> > >me back in on my return!
>
> >http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p...753.htmlsays:-
>
> > Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport
> > to
> > enter and leave the United States.
> > --
> > Lansbury
> >www.uk-air.net
> > FAQs for the alt.travel.uk.air newsgroup
>
> You don't need a passport (from any country) to leave the US.
There's no formal passport control for US citizens when leaving the
US, but the law still says that a US citizen must be in possession of
a US passport when leaving the US.
Mar 22nd 2007, 6:25 pm
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:16:08 +0000, Rete wrote:
>
> WHY??? Because you are to enter the US as a US Citizen. You can use
> your other country's passport to enter another foreign country, if
> you wish, but you MUST enter the US with a US Passport if you are a
> US Citizen.
I don't know if you saw my post Rete but, on the first of May I will be
attempting to re-enter the USA as an American citizen with only my
certificate of naturalization as proof. I have only 6 working days between
my oath ceremony and my departure to the UK and it will be impossible for
me to get a passport in that timescale, the passport agency in San
Francisco is almost 1000 miles away and is backed up anyway.
I guess if the worst came to the worst I could head for Nogales and
re-enter there (they were still accepting US Drivers Licenses a week ago!)
Wish me luck
Denis
>
> WHY??? Because you are to enter the US as a US Citizen. You can use
> your other country's passport to enter another foreign country, if
> you wish, but you MUST enter the US with a US Passport if you are a
> US Citizen.
I don't know if you saw my post Rete but, on the first of May I will be
attempting to re-enter the USA as an American citizen with only my
certificate of naturalization as proof. I have only 6 working days between
my oath ceremony and my departure to the UK and it will be impossible for
me to get a passport in that timescale, the passport agency in San
Francisco is almost 1000 miles away and is backed up anyway.
I guess if the worst came to the worst I could head for Nogales and
re-enter there (they were still accepting US Drivers Licenses a week ago!)
Wish me luck
Denis
Mar 22nd 2007, 6:44 pm
#24
SUPER MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88,029
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:16:08 +0000, Rete wrote:
>
> WHY??? Because you are to enter the US as a US Citizen. You can use
> your other country's passport to enter another foreign country, if
> you wish, but you MUST enter the US with a US Passport if you are a
> US Citizen.
I don't know if you saw my post Rete but, on the first of May I will be
attempting to re-enter the USA as an American citizen with only my
certificate of naturalization as proof. I have only 6 working days between
my oath ceremony and my departure to the UK and it will be impossible for
me to get a passport in that timescale, the passport agency in San
Francisco is almost 1000 miles away and is backed up anyway.
I guess if the worst came to the worst I could head for Nogales and
re-enter there (they were still accepting US Drivers Licenses a week ago!)
Wish me luck
Denis
>
> WHY??? Because you are to enter the US as a US Citizen. You can use
> your other country's passport to enter another foreign country, if
> you wish, but you MUST enter the US with a US Passport if you are a
> US Citizen.
I don't know if you saw my post Rete but, on the first of May I will be
attempting to re-enter the USA as an American citizen with only my
certificate of naturalization as proof. I have only 6 working days between
my oath ceremony and my departure to the UK and it will be impossible for
me to get a passport in that timescale, the passport agency in San
Francisco is almost 1000 miles away and is backed up anyway.
I guess if the worst came to the worst I could head for Nogales and
re-enter there (they were still accepting US Drivers Licenses a week ago!)
Wish me luck
Denis
How would you be able to 'head' for Nogales?
Mar 22nd 2007, 8:18 pm
#25
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 35,082
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:16:08 +0000, Rete wrote:
>
> WHY??? Because you are to enter the US as a US Citizen. You can use
> your other country's passport to enter another foreign country, if
> you wish, but you MUST enter the US with a US Passport if you are a
> US Citizen.
I don't know if you saw my post Rete but, on the first of May I will be
attempting to re-enter the USA as an American citizen with only my
certificate of naturalization as proof. I have only 6 working days between
my oath ceremony and my departure to the UK and it will be impossible for
me to get a passport in that timescale, the passport agency in San
Francisco is almost 1000 miles away and is backed up anyway.
I guess if the worst came to the worst I could head for Nogales and
re-enter there (they were still accepting US Drivers Licenses a week ago!)
Wish me luck
Denis
>
> WHY??? Because you are to enter the US as a US Citizen. You can use
> your other country's passport to enter another foreign country, if
> you wish, but you MUST enter the US with a US Passport if you are a
> US Citizen.
I don't know if you saw my post Rete but, on the first of May I will be
attempting to re-enter the USA as an American citizen with only my
certificate of naturalization as proof. I have only 6 working days between
my oath ceremony and my departure to the UK and it will be impossible for
me to get a passport in that timescale, the passport agency in San
Francisco is almost 1000 miles away and is backed up anyway.
I guess if the worst came to the worst I could head for Nogales and
re-enter there (they were still accepting US Drivers Licenses a week ago!)
Wish me luck
Denis
I appreciate your timing issue, but I don't know if you understood my post. There is a special section of the Passport Agency that requires an appointment for emergency purposes. Many of the people we saw that day were newly naturalized citizens and everyone walked out with their new pasport that day.
Appointments can only be booked in the two weeks before your travel and you must bring proof of your departure.
Mar 22nd 2007, 9:17 pm
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
That's not what they are saying on the website, they are saying 3
working days for processing if you go there personally. I just cannot do
that and risk leaving the country without a passport and without my
naturalization certificate. I tried the automated line for the San
Francisco appointments and the earliest appointment I could get today
was for Tuesday!
How long ago was your experience? They seem to be maxed out now :-(
--
Denis
The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.
>> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:16:08 +0000, Rete wrote:
>>
>>> WHY??? Because you are to enter the US as a US Citizen. You can
>>> use
>>> your other country's passport to enter another foreign country, if
>>> you wish, but you MUST enter the US with a US Passport if you are a
>>> US Citizen.
>> I don't know if you saw my post Rete but, on the first of May I will
>> be
>> attempting to re-enter the USA as an American citizen with only my
>> certificate of naturalization as proof. I have only 6 working days
>> between
>> my oath ceremony and my departure to the UK and it will be impossible
>> for
>> me to get a passport in that timescale, the passport agency in San
>> Francisco is almost 1000 miles away and is backed up anyway.
>>
>> I guess if the worst came to the worst I could head for Nogales and
>> re-enter there (they were still accepting US Drivers Licenses a
>> week ago!)
>>
>> Wish me luck
>>
>> Denis
>
> Denis, I'm a bit scattered at the moment, but IIRC, entering without a
> passport was only *ever* (in recent history) a Western Hemisphere
> option. USCs returning from Europe & the rest of the world *must*
> present a passport.
> I appreciate your timing issue, but I don't know if you understood my
> post. There is a special section of the Passport Agency that requires an
> appointment for emergency purposes. Many of the people we saw that day
> were newly naturalized citizens and everyone walked out with their new
> pasport that day.
>
> Appointments can only be booked in the two weeks before your travel and
> you must bring proof of your departure.
>
working days for processing if you go there personally. I just cannot do
that and risk leaving the country without a passport and without my
naturalization certificate. I tried the automated line for the San
Francisco appointments and the earliest appointment I could get today
was for Tuesday!
How long ago was your experience? They seem to be maxed out now :-(
--
Denis
The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.
>> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:16:08 +0000, Rete wrote:
>>
>>> WHY??? Because you are to enter the US as a US Citizen. You can
>>> use
>>> your other country's passport to enter another foreign country, if
>>> you wish, but you MUST enter the US with a US Passport if you are a
>>> US Citizen.
>> I don't know if you saw my post Rete but, on the first of May I will
>> be
>> attempting to re-enter the USA as an American citizen with only my
>> certificate of naturalization as proof. I have only 6 working days
>> between
>> my oath ceremony and my departure to the UK and it will be impossible
>> for
>> me to get a passport in that timescale, the passport agency in San
>> Francisco is almost 1000 miles away and is backed up anyway.
>>
>> I guess if the worst came to the worst I could head for Nogales and
>> re-enter there (they were still accepting US Drivers Licenses a
>> week ago!)
>>
>> Wish me luck
>>
>> Denis
>
> Denis, I'm a bit scattered at the moment, but IIRC, entering without a
> passport was only *ever* (in recent history) a Western Hemisphere
> option. USCs returning from Europe & the rest of the world *must*
> present a passport.
> I appreciate your timing issue, but I don't know if you understood my
> post. There is a special section of the Passport Agency that requires an
> appointment for emergency purposes. Many of the people we saw that day
> were newly naturalized citizens and everyone walked out with their new
> pasport that day.
>
> Appointments can only be booked in the two weeks before your travel and
> you must bring proof of your departure.
>
Mar 22nd 2007, 9:18 pm
#28
Septicity
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
Now that passports will be required for all USCs traveling to Canada, Mexico, etc. starting in January 2008, the passport agencies have been absolutely inundated with applications to process and are getting farther and farther behind. This has been all over the news lately. Here's a link to one news article about it -- and a snippet of what it says:
New U.S. passport rules cause spike in demand, delays
ATLANTA (Reuters) - Americans are putting an unusual strain on passport offices because of new U.S. rules requiring them to carry the documents for air travel to Canada, the Caribbean and Latin America.
The average processing time has risen to 10 weeks from six because of the rules imposed on January 23 to comply with the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004, the State Department said on Friday.
Expedited passport services, which cost more and usually take 2 weeks, now take three to four weeks and sometimes longer and U.S. customer-service centers are struggling to cope with the higher volume of calls and e-mails.
~ Jenney
New U.S. passport rules cause spike in demand, delays
ATLANTA (Reuters) - Americans are putting an unusual strain on passport offices because of new U.S. rules requiring them to carry the documents for air travel to Canada, the Caribbean and Latin America.
The average processing time has risen to 10 weeks from six because of the rules imposed on January 23 to comply with the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004, the State Department said on Friday.
Expedited passport services, which cost more and usually take 2 weeks, now take three to four weeks and sometimes longer and U.S. customer-service centers are struggling to cope with the higher volume of calls and e-mails.
~ Jenney
Mar 22nd 2007, 9:50 pm
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
> And in fact, passports have been required for air travel to
> the US, even from Canada and Mexico since January 2007.
Yes, I knew that would have to be corrected, even though it was implied
that it was travel through a land/water Port of Entry earlier on the thread
(the OP was worried about getting a U.S. passport quickly after his
naturalization ceremony, so it was suggested that Canada could be a waypoint
to return to & cross to the U.S. by land/water to avoid the need for a
passport)...
> January 2008 is the current deadline for when passports
> will be required at the land borders.
*As soon as* January 2008, meaning it could be delayed from going into
effect. Rete told me to lighten up. I really want to, but it is important to
understand that statements need to be phrased correctly.
David
[email protected]
> the US, even from Canada and Mexico since January 2007.
Yes, I knew that would have to be corrected, even though it was implied
that it was travel through a land/water Port of Entry earlier on the thread
(the OP was worried about getting a U.S. passport quickly after his
naturalization ceremony, so it was suggested that Canada could be a waypoint
to return to & cross to the U.S. by land/water to avoid the need for a
passport)...
> January 2008 is the current deadline for when passports
> will be required at the land borders.
*As soon as* January 2008, meaning it could be delayed from going into
effect. Rete told me to lighten up. I really want to, but it is important to
understand that statements need to be phrased correctly.
David
[email protected]
Mar 22nd 2007, 10:05 pm
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Postponing an oath ceremony
"Jerseygirl",
> You need a PP and original copy of your birth certificate...
> that was what my daughter was told when she tried to
> re-enter from Canada by road...whilst waiting for her US PP.
I've heard at least one other person state that a passport and "other
identification" was required on a land entry from Canada recently. It's
confusing to me why rules other than what the Department of State has laid
out are seemingly being observed at some locations. In itself a passport is
enough of an identifying document on its own (once people are travelling on
passports I think it would be rare for them to also carry their birth
certificate).
> How would you be able to 'head' for Nogales?
Because, as the OP knows, you can still cross at southern Port of
Entries without a passport (even though I have a passport I use, I can get
across with my driver's licence)...
David
[email protected]
> You need a PP and original copy of your birth certificate...
> that was what my daughter was told when she tried to
> re-enter from Canada by road...whilst waiting for her US PP.
I've heard at least one other person state that a passport and "other
identification" was required on a land entry from Canada recently. It's
confusing to me why rules other than what the Department of State has laid
out are seemingly being observed at some locations. In itself a passport is
enough of an identifying document on its own (once people are travelling on
passports I think it would be rare for them to also carry their birth
certificate).
> How would you be able to 'head' for Nogales?
Because, as the OP knows, you can still cross at southern Port of
Entries without a passport (even though I have a passport I use, I can get
across with my driver's licence)...
David
[email protected]