truthfulinsights

I think naturalization is a great thing. It is wonderful if you can go
to another country, live there, learn the language and then apply for
citizenship. It is refreshing to stand in front of a new flag and give
an oath of allegiance. Feel something new, patriotic, and say " Now I
am ( put the new nationality here)".

However, while the official "paper" naturalization is rather simple,
the social one is much harder if sometimes not downright near
impossible. Take your new compatriots, the "native" people, with
their natural human inquisitiveness. They will ask you the same
question no matter where you go- the "Where are you from?" question.
Unless you are some linguistic genius and have a good musical ear, you
will have an accent. Or, if you are of a different ethnic group, you
will look different from the majority of people. Your name may also
stand out. So, people, I mean people everywhere, will ask you the same
thing over and over again: "Where are you from?" Sure, now you can
tell them about your new residence in the country, the new town where
you live. They will then probably grimace un-satisfied-ly and ask you a
more direct , more insightful question that you simply cannot avoid
now- "Where are you from, originally?". Now, this is a tough one.
Unless you want to lie, you will have to tell them the truth. So, in
social situations, you often, if not always, remain a foreigner. In
spite of the oath you took.

The US- Mexican border people usually ask you "What is your
citizenship" before admitting you to the US. However, once a border
guard there asked me "Where were you born"? After I told him, a
mini-interrogation ensued. My family and I had to pull over, pull out
our US passports, he had to examine them, asking how my family and I
had acquired US citizenship, how long we had been in the US, all sorts
of things. I understand the security concern, but for some reason this
"born" thing is somehow so important to Americans. There was once a
celebration in the news of "American-born" athletes. There are a proud
song- "Born in the USA", and "Hello, America, how are you, don't you
know that I'm your native son?" . It all shows that the nativist
sentiment is quite strong in the US. Then, they wonder why some
immigrants are not as patriotic as they should be. How can you be a
full patriot if you are not really and truly seen as a 100% citizen
because of this "not born here" thing? Something you had no control
over but which is somehow often held against you.

The drive for diversity and political correctness in the US sometimes
does more harm than good as far as "becoming an American" is concerned
. There was once a company in the US that had a very international
staff from many different countries. The top manager was so proud of
the diversity of the workplace that he had a map on the wall with pins
stuck in it indicating where every employee was born. His intentions
were good, but if you are a naturalized US citizen, wouldn't you rather
just think of yourself as an American now and not have a pin stuck
somewhere that ,even with the best of intentions, still says-" He is
from another country"?

In France I have heard, the complaint of a lot of people is that even
after you become a citizen, they still treat you as a non-citizen. So,
I guess, in some places, one should not harbor too many illusions about
now belonging there.

In the US it is illegal to ask about birth place on job applications,
but in some other countries it is not. When applying for a job you end
up putting it. What next? You may be rejected for that job because of
that - local people come first. You are not from there, you know. Not
originally. And often, people will not ask you "What is your
citizenship?" except in passport offices of foreign embassies. They
will simply ask you the same "dooming" questions: "Where are you from?"
or "Where were you born?"

If people get angry at you for any reason, they may even tell you to
"Go back to ( put the name of the country here)!". Or, in hard
economic times, they will tell you that they have to hire ( put the
name of your new nationality here) and not "foreigners". If you protest
and say " I am not a foreigner, I am a citizen", an answer may come
your way- "I mean, a foreigner- not born here!" Such is sometimes the
reality of being a naturalized citizen. You may feel like a stepson,
not a real native son. Especially if you deal with uneducated "native"
people.

Now, it is nice to get a new passport and proclaim with pride: "I am
a citizen of ( put the country here)". However, somehow, not even one
country in the world issues a passport that does not have your
birthplace written in it. So, if you travel, people that check your
passport may start asking you questions, sometimes innocent, but,
sometimes, suspicious ones and treat you as a person of that old
country, not the new one you are a citizen of. And God forbid if that
country has a bad reputation in the one you are visiting. You can be
called all sorts of names. Or even refused entry.

In newspapers also, or in any media, in articles about you, they will
call you a "( put the name of a country + "ese" or "ian"
here) immigrant". They will call you like that before the
naturalization, and after the naturalization. Ten, twenty, thirty years
from now, you will remain an "immigrant". The US TV newscasters are
very fond of that, for one.

I think this is a new item in the area of political correctness that
liberals should work on eliminating. In the US, for one, there has
once been a positive term " New American" in the press. It should gain
more popularity as I have not been hearing it too often lately. The
term "first generation American" too, often means "first generation
'born' in the US". This should also change. It should include first
generation naturalized citizens, as well.

In the English-language press anywhere they love using the name of the
country and the word "born" after it, i.e. Polish-born,
German-born., etc. Regardless of your new US-, Canadian or whatever
other citizenship. Why do they do that? Is it really that important?
Why can't the say a "Canadian national", for one, and a "US national"?
Why is this birth thing ( a result of the parents' feelings for one
another on the territory of a country that you now owe no allegiance
to) so crucial that it needs to be rubbed in all the time- for decades?

Sometimes, they will use something like
"Australian-turned-American", etc. They will also talk about your
"homeland" -meaning your old country, not the new one, even though
you have taken an oath to reject your old country thoroughly and
completely.

Then, also, you hear things like "He is a second generation
Iranian". Meaning: "he is a child of Iranians who immigrated to
country X". Let's say your parents are Iranians and you were born in
the US. Your parents also became US citizens. Aren't you now a
second-generation 'American'? Shouldn't a "second generation
Iranian" be a child of people who became naturalized 'Iranian'
citizens in Iran? Another area that the PC people haven't gotten to
yet.

Lots of countries are like that in the way they talk about naturalized
citizens. To one degree or another. And few if any of such citizens
became presidents or prime ministers of their new country. That is
another thing that needs to be changed. Particularly in the US, there
is a law that prohibits foreign-born people from becoming President.
Say, if someone came from Canada at age 1 and does not know any other
country except the US, he cannot become President. However, if someone
was born in the US, but left at age 1, and knows very little about it(
such as a son of some tourists) he is eligible to become one. I think
it is unfair. You have not done anything bad but it is as if people do
not fully trust you. Can you ever become a full patriot? I do not think
so.

What if there is a Civics class and children are asked what they would
do if they were President or Prime-minister? Some kids will feel like
they are second-class. Not completely second class, but slightly below
the "true citizen", the "born-and-raised-here" one. This must change
one day.

Then, there is another thing. In some countries they have censuses that
talk about "foreign-born population", meaning "immigrants". So,
they will dump illegal ones, legal non-citizens, and naturalized
citizens into the same category. Makes you feel like you do not fully
belong. Whenever a naturalized citizen reads publications that mentions
such statistics, his feeling of patriotism for his country often
suffers a bit of a setback. How come one is put into the same class
with people who are not citizens yet? Didn't one go through all the
requirements for the citizenship tests and all? Didn't one swear on
the Bible his new allegiance rejecting every other country? Don't they
trust me?

And did you ever wonder why it is that they call it "citi-zenship"? It
is another misnomer, in my view. Shouldn't it be called
"countryzenship", or just "nationality"? After all, we do not became
members of a "city", but a nation. "Citizenship" is just anouther
carry-over from the time of city-states, a very distant period in world
history. We have nation-states now.

And is "naturalization" a good term? Like you were "unnatural" before
and then became "natural"? Like you were a robot before and now you are
a human being? One thing I like about Argentina and Uruguay is that
they do not have the term "naturalization"- they call it
"nacionalizacion". Immigrants are "nationalized", not "naturalized".
Maybe, that is the word that should be used in all the other countries
who are generous enough to admit new people as members of their
society.

However, one should not discount the positive things of naturalization.
In many countries non-citizens cannot own property. This is the reason
many people become citizens to begin with. If you want to own land
there, become one.

Also, you are legally what your new passport says no matter what people
may say. You can vote and qualify for many government jobs; you can now
travel abroad on the new passport and take employment in countries
whose employers prefer citizens of your new country. So, benefits
abound. It is important to concentrate on those, and try and minimize
the lingering "Where are you from?" reality.

Lastly, naturalized citizens in the US and everywhere else should unite
and work on changing societal attitudes towards them. Black people in
America rallied hard to change all sorts of nasty words applied to them
to a much more pleasant "African- American". Maybe naturalized
citizens should organize and do the same? But while things have not
changed, one should really try and equip oneself with skills and money
to counteract the possible discrimination against one. One will need to
work harder, study harder. Try and drop that accent. That's just the
way it is. Some things take a long time to change.

Above all, naturalization should be seen as a practical tool, not
something that can fulfill your romantic aspirations.

ian-mstm

This post provided much food for thought! However, several key points are simply incorrect and need to be corrected.


You do not have to tell them anything. “Mind your own goddamn business!” is still an acceptable response! This is especially true if you do not know the person to whom you speak… your personal business is not their concern – and there is nothing that says you have to be polite to those who delight in sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong.


This is not true. In order to be eligible, you must be a “natural born citizen”. There is a good discussion here: http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html. I suggest you read it thoroughly! Being “foreign-born” is not a bar to the presidency!


Swearing on the bible is not a requirement for the oath ceremony.


Don’t confuse “African-American” with “Black”… they are not necessarily interchangeable terms – especially if one is from Kenya, South Africa, Jamaica, Bermuda, or just about any other country!

Ian

Rete

My naturalized husband would not be one of them. If asked about where he is from originally, he proudly says "Canada". In fact he has a license plateholder that proclaims "Canadian by Birth -- American by Choice."

He is proud to hold both citizenships.

You reference African-Americans which is strange because in your post they should only be Americans. They are no longer African, just as my husband is no longer Canadian and I am no longer German and my grandmother is no longer Polish. If you hypenate your pedigree to include two countries then you are essentially saying you have loyality to neither.

Joe Feise

    >> celebration in the news of "American-born" athletes. There are a proud
    >> song- "Born in the USA", and "Hello, America, how are you, don't you


Hmm, did you actually read the lyrics to "Born in the USA"?
http://www.brucespringsteen.net/songs/BornInTheUSA.html
It is quite critical of US politics, and has nothing to do with a "nativist"
movement.

-Joe

bishop13291

You know very well you are not wanted. You come here knowing that the
people dont want you. If you had integrity, you would leave.

scrubbedexpat099

Asking where you are from is a bit like commenting about the weather, just a conversation opener.

My Wife is from Delaware and she says 'Back East', so I either use that or where we now live. Or I start from where we are now and then go to Back East. It amuses me.

I do not actually have an accent, I sometimes point this out if the question arises. Once asked by a 4 year old who obviously understood what I was saying and had been watching intently 'Why did I not speak English', if he had been a bit older I would have pointed out that he did, I did not.

I think most people here see Naturalisation as gaining an important bit of paper that gets USCIS etc off your back. It would make no difference to me as to who I am and where I am from.

I have people expalin to me that they are 4th generation Irish or German or whatever, always wondered why and what relevance it has now or why I would be interested.

wmoore

This one cracks me up. I know a guy, born and raised in Scotland, lived there all his life til he moved to the US, never been to any part of Africa and isn't American but still gets called an African-American. how does that work?

Folinskyinla

Hi:

I had the same idea about the Boss's words myself. Also, "City of New Orleans" is about a TRAIN. I still think of "Native Son" as by James Baldwin -- and the phrase is used that the person born here is NOT treated as a "native son."

Despite the breakouts of nativism and know-nothingism -- the glory of the United States is to allow for "naturalization." In my opinion, the presidential qualification clause was a creature of it times -- do remember that it was common for Royal Heads of State to be imported -- and the United States had just experienced an unpleasant affair with a German named "George III". It is interesting to note that congressmen and senators did not need to be "natural born" and curious enough -- note that Judges need not even be Citizens!

OldPif

[email protected] wrote:
    > Lastly, naturalized citizens in the US and everywhere else should unite
    > and work on changing societal attitudes towards them. Black people in
    > America rallied hard to change all sorts of nasty words applied to them
    > to a much more pleasant "African- American". Maybe naturalized
    > citizens should organize and do the same? But while things have not
    > changed, one should really try and equip oneself with skills and money
    > to counteract the possible discrimination against one. One will need to
    > work harder, study harder. Try and drop that accent. That's just the
    > way it is. Some things take a long time to change.

You can't be serious about it can you? In the Western world there are
privacy bounds that nobody can cross. The above mentioned black people
achieved the correct and polite behavior towards them. They have not
crossed social boundaries at all. You don't see a lot of mixed couple
and you don't see many mixed social groups on the private level.

To be an immigrant you need sufficiently thick skin. E.g. to ignore the
previous posting. If you are too sensitive stay at your home country.

Pay attention to how immigrants live and do the same. Socially they
stay predominantly in their own groups. They start mixing on the
children level.

The beauty of the Western world is that as long as you respect law
(well most of it) you could allow to care shit about who likes you and
who not. Enjoy it.

Old Pif

Ravi Rao

In article <[email protected] .com>, [email protected] wrote:

    > Now, it is nice to get a new passport and proclaim with pride: "I am
    > a citizen of ( put the country here)". However, somehow, not even one
    > country in the world issues a passport that does not have your
    > birthplace written in it. So, if you travel, people that check your

That is not correct -- Canada lets you get passports which do not specify
your place of birth.

See box 1 on top of page 4 here:

http://www.pptc.gc.ca/online_forms/pdfs/ppt044.pdf

--ravi.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

Just a little OT:

UK lists CITY of birth. I've seen two passports of dual US/UK citizens born in "Newport" and "Newark" -- and people think they are English born and not US born for some reason.

scrubbedexpat099

Mine shows the County Town, neither the county town or the town of my birth are City's anyway.

I have wondered why, but never bothered to find out.

truthfulinsights

Thank you for all the corrections. So, who was the president of Latin
America that was foreign born? Would be interesting to know.
Canada does actually tell you that you need to check with other
countries' embassies if they will accept a passport w/o a place of
birth.
Also, has the US oath of naturalization changed? I remember it had a
paragraph stating something like " I hereby renounce my allegiance to
every foreign state, kingdom or potentate, etc" Is it no longer
included?

And Mr. Bishop 13. I am not living in the US. And if you do not want
people to come to the US, maybe you should first tell Americans who
live abroad to come back. Millions of them live in all these different
countries. Here is a list of US expats.

http://www.aca.ch/amabroad.pdf

See, it is an exchange- Gringos live there, other people live here.

So, they can live in other countries but a person from another country
cannot live in the US? Tough.

Maybe you should ask the gov't to stop advertising the Green Card
lottery?

truthfulinsights

    >>Pay attention to how immigrants live and do the same. Socially they
    >>stay predominantly in their own groups.

Sounds like Apartheid to me. Want no part in it.

scrubbedexpat099

I have never sworn allegiance to anybody so I have nothing to renounce.

So the phrase is meaningless.

Your mileage may vary.