cocoanud

Hi,

To put is as simply as possible, these are the facts/events to be considered in chronological order
- UK Resident via ILR on Indian Passport
- Stopped by police on suspicion of drunk driving, Roadside breath test indicates alcohol, arrested and taken to police station for further test
- Alcohol in breath detected in the police station but under UK permissible limits
- Released, no conviction, no points on license, no fines
- Needed to travel to US for attending training/seminar in US
- Applied for ACPO Certificate, came with "No Trace"
- Applied for B1/2 Visa
- Granted a 10 year Visa
- Returned from US within 2 weeks
- After 2 months of return from US, became eligible for British Citizenship
- Applied for British Citizenship and Passport which have been granted

Now I need to again travel to the US for further training and business meetings etc.

What should I do, apply for B1/2 Visa all over again ? OR my arrest before the breath test at the police station does not count as I was not ultimately convicted and I can travel and enter US under ESTA ?

The language of the question is utterly deceptive "arrested and/or convicted" and just makes it much harder to decide which way to go ?

Any inputs are much appreciated.

Thanks,
--
CN

Noorah101

It seems you already hold a valid B1/B2 visa. Use that visa. Carry both passports.

Rene

bruceba

I don't think the Indian passport is valid anymore.
Try esta. If that does not work you should be ok to be approved for B/1B/2

ian-mstm

With respect, you are reading only part of the question. It doesn't say "arrested and/or convicted"... it says "arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude". You can't ignore the most important part of the question! Drink driving is not a CIMT - so if you want to travel on the VWP with your UK passport... you can safely tick "no" to the question.

Ian

Noorah101

The Indian passport might not be, but the visa inside it still should be. And now that he's a UKC, he should have a UKC passport.

Rene

cocoanud

Hi Ian,

I was going through those questions last evening in a bit of frustration and annoyance so was unable to cut through the language :-)

Thanks for pointing out the devil/detail...

However, I was looking at the sticky post by Mr Fong, and under the CIMT list, I found "driving under the influence (aggravated), which includes drunk driving with knowledge that driver is without a valid license"

When I was stopped by the police, the officer told me they started following me and tried to stop me because they noticed that I turned on my fog light and turned it off before I drove off and the weather did not call for the use of fog lights at that point of time.

And I definitely had a valid license obviously. Knock on the wood, no driving penalties since issued.

So, the driving on its own was not aggravated although in theory two people could argue on this ad nauseum. The "influence" was due to Bacardi and not any other drug or other substance. And I did not have the knowledge that I am driving without a valid license, because I indeed had a valid license.

So does this count as CIMT ?

(Now, the fog lights... Ever since I had this car where the front and rear fog lights can be controlled separately I tend to drive with the front fog lights on as it is only a bit more easier to spot dinks/other potholes on the roads. But since this was actually a residential street where you already get street lights I somehow decided to defer turning the fog lights on, in case that is of any interest or relevance.)

materialcontroller

I'm sure there was a recent post that alluded to this scenario and stated that both the new and expired passports have to be of the same nationality for this course of action to be valid.

materialcontroller

Stop worrying. There isn't even a hint of moral turpitude in your case. Use your UK passport, apply for an ESTA (you can tick NO to the question about arrests) and travel on the VWP if authorised.

Marocco

I am not sure if this is the case, since the OP is no longer an Indian citizen (Indian citizenship is automatically lost upon obtaining another citizenship by naturalisation).

ian-mstm

Mr. Bacardi and I have had a very long and, at time, torturous relationship. For a while, he won - a rather convincing defeat actually... but I eventually got the better of him!


No.

Ian

cocoanud

Hi all helpful lovely folks :-)

Thanks a lot for the inputs.

It's not the ideal way to spend a weekend but have been trying to look this up.

This is what I found, The US Dept of State has a "Foreign Affairs Manual", which is available here... http://www.state.gov/m/a/dir/regs/fam/

Although my day job does involve scouring manuals besides other things, this is a monster manual for me !!!

And the relevant bit is in Volume 9
- Part 40.21(a) Crimes Involving Moral Turpitude
- Part 40.21(a) Notes

The first document is only about 8 pages and it is a bit daunting to read through all and make sense of it.

The 40.21(a) Notes bit is a lot more for the "rest of us". It contains a few sections with sub-lists.

In any section the first sub-list is a list of crimes involving moral turpitude.
The second(or in some cases a third) sub-list is a list of "occurrences-in-your-life" which can be considered to be not crimes involving moral turpitude.

However, the language in the list which includes drunk driving, has very complicated language
"Crimes committed against governmental authority, which would not
constitute moral turpitude for visa issuance purposes, are, in general,
violation of laws which are regulatory in character and which do not
involve the element of fraud or other evil intent.

The following list assumes that the statutes involved do not require the showing of an intent to defraud, or evil intent"

If the law/statute involved drink driving does not require the showing of an intent to defraud or other evil intent then it can be considered a non CIMT.

Assuming I had to face court for this then
- The lawyer on the other side would not have required to shown an intent to defraud. - Seems reasonably true
- The lawyer on the other side would not have required to shown an evil intent. - Don't know ?

Also,
- Willful Tax Evasion is the first list i.e. CIMT
- However, Tax Evasion (Without the Intent to Defraud) in the the second list. Which could imply that the second list is a list of non CIMT
- Drunk driving is in the second list.

Also, and this one is actually more useful than anything else
http://photos.state.gov/libraries/unitedkingdom/164203/cons-visa/AmEmbassy_London_visa_webchat11.pdf. This is the relevant bit
"Q: Is drink driving a crime involving moral turpitude?

A:No, however, you must disclose as an in eligibility may apply"

I think I can sort of now tell myself without having to replace a certain part of my body with identical steel counterparts, that I should be OK.

What do you guys think ?

Regards,
--
CN

crg

You can't use the visa in an expired passport unless your new valid passport is of the same nationality.


See: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/87498.pdf

9 FAM 41.112 N6

...Thus, an alien can present two passports; one which fulfills the visa requirement and the other the passport requirement. The alien's nationality, as indicated in the new passport, must be the same as that shown in the passport bearing the visa foil.

cocoanud

Sure, I am pretty clear on that :-) That's why I was wondering whether to get ESTA or apply for the B1 visa all over again.

--
CN

ian-mstm

I think you're wasting your time (and weekend) by reading stuff that is largely irrelevant to your situation. Drink driving is not a CIMT. End of story.

Now, step away from the computer... and get on with life.

Ian

Noorah101

Ah, thank you for that clarification.

Rene