N-400: Through attorney or direct?
Jun 22nd 2003, 5:47 am
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
N-400: Through attorney or direct?
The legal department of the company I work for has offered to be my
interface to BCIS, and submit the N-400 package. It is part of employee
benefit and I do not have to pay for the services. My question is: Is
there an advantage of going through an attorney versus sending the forms
directly? Please let me know your experiences.
Thanks!
interface to BCIS, and submit the N-400 package. It is part of employee
benefit and I do not have to pay for the services. My question is: Is
there an advantage of going through an attorney versus sending the forms
directly? Please let me know your experiences.
Thanks!
Jun 22nd 2003, 6:09 am
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
If you don't have to pay for the attorney, then that would of course be
better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could probably
figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other things.
Personally, I plan on hiring an attorney when I submit my N-400 in about 1
1/2 years, just to be sure.
All that said, an attorney is no panacea. I know of at least one case
where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do with
having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an unusual
situation).
On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 05:47:31 +0000, BlueSkies wrote:
> The legal department of the company I work for has offered to be my
> interface to BCIS, and submit the N-400 package. It is part of employee
> benefit and I do not have to pay for the services. My question is: Is
> there an advantage of going through an attorney versus sending the forms
> directly? Please let me know your experiences.
>
> Thanks!
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (still under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could probably
figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other things.
Personally, I plan on hiring an attorney when I submit my N-400 in about 1
1/2 years, just to be sure.
All that said, an attorney is no panacea. I know of at least one case
where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do with
having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an unusual
situation).
On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 05:47:31 +0000, BlueSkies wrote:
> The legal department of the company I work for has offered to be my
> interface to BCIS, and submit the N-400 package. It is part of employee
> benefit and I do not have to pay for the services. My question is: Is
> there an advantage of going through an attorney versus sending the forms
> directly? Please let me know your experiences.
>
> Thanks!
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (still under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
Jun 22nd 2003, 2:25 pm
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
"Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message news:...
> If you don't have to pay for the attorney, then that would of course be
> better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
>
> Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
> just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
> attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
> ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
> ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
> months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
> where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could probably
> figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other things.
>
Just wondering, how can an attorney help you with this? Would it be
more suspisous if you hire attorney instead doing this by yourself? As
you said, even with attorney if you had some problems it wouldn't go
throught.So how can he help you?
> If you don't have to pay for the attorney, then that would of course be
> better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
>
> Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
> just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
> attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
> ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
> ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
> months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
> where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could probably
> figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other things.
>
Just wondering, how can an attorney help you with this? Would it be
more suspisous if you hire attorney instead doing this by yourself? As
you said, even with attorney if you had some problems it wouldn't go
throught.So how can he help you?
Jun 22nd 2003, 2:49 pm
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
dennee wrote:
>
> "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message news:...
> > If you don't have to pay for the attorney, then that would of course be
> > better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
> >
> > Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
> > just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
> > attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
> > ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
> > ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
> > months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
> > where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could probably
> > figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other things.
> >
>
> Just wondering, how can an attorney help you with this? Would it be
> more suspisous if you hire attorney instead doing this by yourself? As
> you said, even with attorney if you had some problems it wouldn't go
> throught.So how can he help you?
Many petitions are filed by attorneys. I doubt that in and of itself
would raise suspicions
>
> "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message news:...
> > If you don't have to pay for the attorney, then that would of course be
> > better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
> >
> > Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
> > just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
> > attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
> > ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
> > ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
> > months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
> > where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could probably
> > figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other things.
> >
>
> Just wondering, how can an attorney help you with this? Would it be
> more suspisous if you hire attorney instead doing this by yourself? As
> you said, even with attorney if you had some problems it wouldn't go
> throught.So how can he help you?
Many petitions are filed by attorneys. I doubt that in and of itself
would raise suspicions
Jun 22nd 2003, 3:39 pm
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
> I know of at least one case
> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
> said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do with
> having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an unusual
> situation).
>
I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply
again or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through
green card process?
> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
> said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do with
> having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an unusual
> situation).
>
I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply
again or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through
green card process?
Jun 22nd 2003, 3:57 pm
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
the reason for the denial had to do with
> having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an unusual
> situation)
How did that interfere w/ the naturalization proces? What did they base the
denial on?
"Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
news
[email protected]...
> If you don't have to pay for the attorney, then that would of course be
> better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
> Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
> just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
> attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
> ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
> ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
> months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
> where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could probably
> figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other things.
> Personally, I plan on hiring an attorney when I submit my N-400 in about 1
> 1/2 years, just to be sure.
> All that said, an attorney is no panacea. I know of at least one case
> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
> said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do with
> having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an unusual
> situation).
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 05:47:31 +0000, BlueSkies wrote:
> > The legal department of the company I work for has offered to be my
> > interface to BCIS, and submit the N-400 package. It is part of employee
> > benefit and I do not have to pay for the services. My question is: Is
> > there an advantage of going through an attorney versus sending the forms
> > directly? Please let me know your experiences.
> >
> > Thanks!
> --
> Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I
encourage
> everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
> newsgroups.
> Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (still under
construction)
> My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
> my Web site for information on how to contact me.
> Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
> http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
> having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an unusual
> situation)
How did that interfere w/ the naturalization proces? What did they base the
denial on?
"Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
news
[email protected]...> If you don't have to pay for the attorney, then that would of course be
> better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
> Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
> just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
> attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
> ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
> ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
> months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
> where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could probably
> figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other things.
> Personally, I plan on hiring an attorney when I submit my N-400 in about 1
> 1/2 years, just to be sure.
> All that said, an attorney is no panacea. I know of at least one case
> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
> said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do with
> having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an unusual
> situation).
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 05:47:31 +0000, BlueSkies wrote:
> > The legal department of the company I work for has offered to be my
> > interface to BCIS, and submit the N-400 package. It is part of employee
> > benefit and I do not have to pay for the services. My question is: Is
> > there an advantage of going through an attorney versus sending the forms
> > directly? Please let me know your experiences.
> >
> > Thanks!
> --
> Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I
encourage
> everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
> newsgroups.
> Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (still under
construction)
> My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
> my Web site for information on how to contact me.
> Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
> http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
Jun 22nd 2003, 4:40 pm
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:39:37 -0700, dennee wrote:
>> I know of at least one case
>> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
>> said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do
>> with having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an
>> unusual situation).
>>
> I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply again
> or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through green
> card process?
It depends on the reason for the denial. In this particular case, the
denial wasn't because of the actual problem - that had been forgiven
during the GC process - but because he forgot about it and didn't mention
it in the interview. The adjudicator considered this lying and evidence of
bad moral character. In order to qualify for naturalization, you have to
show good moral character during the past five years. That means that he
could reapply five years + one day after the interview - of course, only
if the denial isn't overturned on appeal.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (still under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
>> I know of at least one case
>> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
>> said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do
>> with having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an
>> unusual situation).
>>
> I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply again
> or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through green
> card process?
It depends on the reason for the denial. In this particular case, the
denial wasn't because of the actual problem - that had been forgiven
during the GC process - but because he forgot about it and didn't mention
it in the interview. The adjudicator considered this lying and evidence of
bad moral character. In order to qualify for naturalization, you have to
show good moral character during the past five years. That means that he
could reapply five years + one day after the interview - of course, only
if the denial isn't overturned on appeal.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (still under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
Jun 22nd 2003, 4:43 pm
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 07:25:15 -0700, dennee wrote:
> "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
> news:...
>> If you don't have to pay for the attorney, then that would of course be
>> better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
>>
>> Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
>> just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
>> attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
>> ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
>> ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
>> months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
>> where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could
>> probably figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other
>> things.
>>
>>
> Just wondering, how can an attorney help you with this? Would it be more
> suspisous if you hire attorney instead doing this by yourself? As you
> said, even with attorney if you had some problems it wouldn't go
> throught.So how can he help you?
An attorney can do two things:
- file the paperwork and make sure that it is all prepared properly.
- coach you for the interview, tell you what to expect, and how to handle
any sticking point.
Yes, an attorney could conceivably also be interpreted as suspicious in
itself, but this is a very minor point in my mind. If you are certain that
you have an absolutely run-of-the-mill case, then you could do it without
one, but as soon as there is the littlest bit unusual about your case, the
advantages of an attorney probably outweigh the drawbacks.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (still under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
> "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
> news:...
>> If you don't have to pay for the attorney, then that would of course be
>> better! You have some great company to offer this kind of benefit!
>>
>> Many people do submit their N-400s themselves, but sometimes there are
>> just questions to be answered or details to be worked out, where an
>> attorney can guide you better. For instance, questions such as "decades
>> ago, I worked illegally while on a tourist visa" or "is this traffic
>> ticket going to be a problem?" or "can I submit the application three
>> months before the fifth anniversary, or is it 90 days?" are all things
>> where an attorney can help. In these specific examples, you could
>> probably figure out the answers yourself, but there can always be other
>> things.
>>
>>
> Just wondering, how can an attorney help you with this? Would it be more
> suspisous if you hire attorney instead doing this by yourself? As you
> said, even with attorney if you had some problems it wouldn't go
> throught.So how can he help you?
An attorney can do two things:
- file the paperwork and make sure that it is all prepared properly.
- coach you for the interview, tell you what to expect, and how to handle
any sticking point.
Yes, an attorney could conceivably also be interpreted as suspicious in
itself, but this is a very minor point in my mind. If you are certain that
you have an absolutely run-of-the-mill case, then you could do it without
one, but as soon as there is the littlest bit unusual about your case, the
advantages of an attorney probably outweigh the drawbacks.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (still under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
Jun 23rd 2003, 4:49 pm
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
"Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message news:...
>
> Personally, I plan on hiring an attorney when I submit my N-400 in about 1
> 1/2 years, just to be sure.
>
> All that said, an attorney is no panacea.
Here's my 3c worth:
I've had a celebratedimmigration attorney take a hefty fee, and
completely screw up my H1B application. Most probably it wasn't him,
but his staff -- he was already too important to deal with details --
but the end result was the same.
Then I had my employer's lawyer forget some important documentation to
accompany I140. The paperwork was returned and I had to re-apply.
So far the only applications that went flawlessly were those I did
myself.
Of course, I agree that in a legally dubious case, a lawyer might be
necessary. But even in one such case I among my friends, another
celebrated attorney (or his staff) forgot to send some important
papers in a deportation case. The person involved barely, just barely
avoided being deported on technicality. [She was a full-time
university professor, and got into trouble by leaving the US while
waiting for the Adjustment of Status, and neglecting the Advance
Parole business.]
So what do you do in cases like the above? Sue the attorney? Good
luck.
jrk01
>
> Personally, I plan on hiring an attorney when I submit my N-400 in about 1
> 1/2 years, just to be sure.
>
> All that said, an attorney is no panacea.
Here's my 3c worth:
I've had a celebratedimmigration attorney take a hefty fee, and
completely screw up my H1B application. Most probably it wasn't him,
but his staff -- he was already too important to deal with details --
but the end result was the same.
Then I had my employer's lawyer forget some important documentation to
accompany I140. The paperwork was returned and I had to re-apply.
So far the only applications that went flawlessly were those I did
myself.
Of course, I agree that in a legally dubious case, a lawyer might be
necessary. But even in one such case I among my friends, another
celebrated attorney (or his staff) forgot to send some important
papers in a deportation case. The person involved barely, just barely
avoided being deported on technicality. [She was a full-time
university professor, and got into trouble by leaving the US while
waiting for the Adjustment of Status, and neglecting the Advance
Parole business.]
So what do you do in cases like the above? Sue the attorney? Good
luck.
jrk01
Jun 23rd 2003, 5:08 pm
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
"Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message news:...
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:39:37 -0700, dennee wrote:
>
> >> I know of at least one case
> >> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
> >> said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do
> >> with having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an
> >> unusual situation).
> >>
> > I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply again
> > or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through green
> > card process?
>
> It depends on the reason for the denial. In this particular case, the
> denial wasn't because of the actual problem - that had been forgiven
> during the GC process - but because he forgot about it and didn't mention
> it in the interview. The adjudicator considered this lying and evidence of
> bad moral character. In order to qualify for naturalization, you have to
> show good moral character during the past five years. That means that he
> could reapply five years + one day after the interview - of course, only
> if the denial isn't overturned on appeal.
>
> --
Hi Ingo,
Did they told him during the GC process about that particular problem,
or not? Were they aware of that at GC interview and they let him go
with that problem? Aren't they suposed to look and check his behaviour
in the last five years after he got GC, not before it?
Are you aware of any cases where the denial was overturned on appeal?
Thanks!
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:39:37 -0700, dennee wrote:
>
> >> I know of at least one case
> >> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it and
> >> said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had to do
> >> with having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier. Quite an
> >> unusual situation).
> >>
> > I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply again
> > or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through green
> > card process?
>
> It depends on the reason for the denial. In this particular case, the
> denial wasn't because of the actual problem - that had been forgiven
> during the GC process - but because he forgot about it and didn't mention
> it in the interview. The adjudicator considered this lying and evidence of
> bad moral character. In order to qualify for naturalization, you have to
> show good moral character during the past five years. That means that he
> could reapply five years + one day after the interview - of course, only
> if the denial isn't overturned on appeal.
>
> --
Hi Ingo,
Did they told him during the GC process about that particular problem,
or not? Were they aware of that at GC interview and they let him go
with that problem? Aren't they suposed to look and check his behaviour
in the last five years after he got GC, not before it?
Are you aware of any cases where the denial was overturned on appeal?
Thanks!
Jun 24th 2003, 4:09 am
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:08:54 -0700, dennee wrote:
> "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
> news:...
>> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:39:37 -0700, dennee wrote:
>>
>> >> I know of at least one case
>> >> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it
>> >> and said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had
>> >> to do with having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier.
>> >> Quite an unusual situation).
>> >>
>> > I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply
>> > again or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through
>> > green card process?
>>
>> It depends on the reason for the denial. In this particular case, the
>> denial wasn't because of the actual problem - that had been forgiven
>> during the GC process - but because he forgot about it and didn't
>> mention it in the interview. The adjudicator considered this lying and
>> evidence of bad moral character. In order to qualify for
>> naturalization, you have to show good moral character during the past
>> five years. That means that he could reapply five years + one day after
>> the interview - of course, only if the denial isn't overturned on
>> appeal.
>>
>> --
> Hi Ingo,
>
> Did they told him during the GC process about that particular problem,
> or not? Were they aware of that at GC interview and they let him go with
> that problem? Aren't they suposed to look and check his behaviour in the
> last five years after he got GC, not before it?
Well, the problem in this case wasn't actually what happened years
earlier, but that the person did not mention it during the naturalization
interview.
> Are you aware of any cases where the denial was overturned on appeal?
No concrete examples, but of course it would happen. Else the appeals
process wouldn't make much sense ;-) Appeals are rigged against the
applicant because Immigration Judges are not independent; they still
report to the same boss as the adjudicators. But the next level of appeals
would be the federal court system, which is independent.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
> "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
> news:...
>> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:39:37 -0700, dennee wrote:
>>
>> >> I know of at least one case
>> >> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it
>> >> and said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had
>> >> to do with having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier.
>> >> Quite an unusual situation).
>> >>
>> > I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply
>> > again or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through
>> > green card process?
>>
>> It depends on the reason for the denial. In this particular case, the
>> denial wasn't because of the actual problem - that had been forgiven
>> during the GC process - but because he forgot about it and didn't
>> mention it in the interview. The adjudicator considered this lying and
>> evidence of bad moral character. In order to qualify for
>> naturalization, you have to show good moral character during the past
>> five years. That means that he could reapply five years + one day after
>> the interview - of course, only if the denial isn't overturned on
>> appeal.
>>
>> --
> Hi Ingo,
>
> Did they told him during the GC process about that particular problem,
> or not? Were they aware of that at GC interview and they let him go with
> that problem? Aren't they suposed to look and check his behaviour in the
> last five years after he got GC, not before it?
Well, the problem in this case wasn't actually what happened years
earlier, but that the person did not mention it during the naturalization
interview.
> Are you aware of any cases where the denial was overturned on appeal?
No concrete examples, but of course it would happen. Else the appeals
process wouldn't make much sense ;-) Appeals are rigged against the
applicant because Immigration Judges are not independent; they still
report to the same boss as the adjudicators. But the next level of appeals
would be the federal court system, which is independent.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
Jun 24th 2003, 4:16 am
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:49:02 -0700, Jurek wrote:
> "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
> news:...
>
>
>> Personally, I plan on hiring an attorney when I submit my N-400 in
>> about 1 1/2 years, just to be sure.
>>
>> All that said, an attorney is no panacea.
>
>
> Here's my 3c worth:
>
> I've had a celebratedimmigration attorney take a hefty fee, and
> completely screw up my H1B application. Most probably it wasn't him, but
> his staff -- he was already too important to deal with details -- but
> the end result was the same.
>
> Then I had my employer's lawyer forget some important documentation to
> accompany I140. The paperwork was returned and I had to re-apply.
>
> So far the only applications that went flawlessly were those I did
> myself.
>
> Of course, I agree that in a legally dubious case, a lawyer might be
> necessary. But even in one such case I among my friends, another
> celebrated attorney (or his staff) forgot to send some important papers
> in a deportation case. The person involved barely, just barely avoided
> being deported on technicality. [She was a full-time university
> professor, and got into trouble by leaving the US while waiting for the
> Adjustment of Status, and neglecting the Advance Parole business.]
>
> So what do you do in cases like the above? Sue the attorney? Good luck.
File a complaint with the Bar Association. I actually had a similar
experience with an attorney who managed to make eight mistakes on my H-1B
Labor Condition Attestation (which at the time was a single page form). At
least, she gave me a break in the fees.
You do have to be on your toes and watch what the attorney does. Remember,
in many ways, it is a boss/employer relationship (where you are the boss
and the attorney works for you), or more appropriately a contractor
relationship.
Do be a smart informed customer.
Also, in defense of attorneys, I have to say that many such situations are
as much the client's fault; the client not realizing that some information
could be important, or doing something that screws up the case (like the
professor neglecting Advance Parole. I really can't blame the attorney for
that! And a professor should be educated enough to do her own homework and
know about A/P without handholding every step by the attorney).
Add to that the fact that immigration attorneys generally charge a very
low fee that does not allow too much day-to-day interaction, or the
attorney would take a huge loss.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
> "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
> news:...
>
>
>> Personally, I plan on hiring an attorney when I submit my N-400 in
>> about 1 1/2 years, just to be sure.
>>
>> All that said, an attorney is no panacea.
>
>
> Here's my 3c worth:
>
> I've had a celebratedimmigration attorney take a hefty fee, and
> completely screw up my H1B application. Most probably it wasn't him, but
> his staff -- he was already too important to deal with details -- but
> the end result was the same.
>
> Then I had my employer's lawyer forget some important documentation to
> accompany I140. The paperwork was returned and I had to re-apply.
>
> So far the only applications that went flawlessly were those I did
> myself.
>
> Of course, I agree that in a legally dubious case, a lawyer might be
> necessary. But even in one such case I among my friends, another
> celebrated attorney (or his staff) forgot to send some important papers
> in a deportation case. The person involved barely, just barely avoided
> being deported on technicality. [She was a full-time university
> professor, and got into trouble by leaving the US while waiting for the
> Adjustment of Status, and neglecting the Advance Parole business.]
>
> So what do you do in cases like the above? Sue the attorney? Good luck.
File a complaint with the Bar Association. I actually had a similar
experience with an attorney who managed to make eight mistakes on my H-1B
Labor Condition Attestation (which at the time was a single page form). At
least, she gave me a break in the fees.
You do have to be on your toes and watch what the attorney does. Remember,
in many ways, it is a boss/employer relationship (where you are the boss
and the attorney works for you), or more appropriately a contractor
relationship.
Do be a smart informed customer.
Also, in defense of attorneys, I have to say that many such situations are
as much the client's fault; the client not realizing that some information
could be important, or doing something that screws up the case (like the
professor neglecting Advance Parole. I really can't blame the attorney for
that! And a professor should be educated enough to do her own homework and
know about A/P without handholding every step by the attorney).
Add to that the fact that immigration attorneys generally charge a very
low fee that does not allow too much day-to-day interaction, or the
attorney would take a huge loss.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
Jun 24th 2003, 4:43 pm
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
This practice is upsetting, really. If the adjudicator had that information
handy he could have asked him about it, rather than trick him into silence.
Beside, if I could remember where I put my wallet last night I would be
happy. People forget small details, especially in high stress situations,
and that does not constitute a bad moral character.
"Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:08:54 -0700, dennee wrote:
> > "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
> > news:...
> >> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:39:37 -0700, dennee wrote:
> >>
> >> >> I know of at least one case
> >> >> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it
> >> >> and said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had
> >> >> to do with having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier.
> >> >> Quite an unusual situation).
> >> >>
> >> > I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply
> >> > again or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through
> >> > green card process?
> >>
> >> It depends on the reason for the denial. In this particular case, the
> >> denial wasn't because of the actual problem - that had been forgiven
> >> during the GC process - but because he forgot about it and didn't
> >> mention it in the interview. The adjudicator considered this lying and
> >> evidence of bad moral character. In order to qualify for
> >> naturalization, you have to show good moral character during the past
> >> five years. That means that he could reapply five years + one day after
> >> the interview - of course, only if the denial isn't overturned on
> >> appeal.
> >>
> >> --
> > Hi Ingo,
> >
> > Did they told him during the GC process about that particular problem,
> > or not? Were they aware of that at GC interview and they let him go with
> > that problem? Aren't they suposed to look and check his behaviour in the
> > last five years after he got GC, not before it?
> Well, the problem in this case wasn't actually what happened years
> earlier, but that the person did not mention it during the naturalization
> interview.
> > Are you aware of any cases where the denial was overturned on appeal?
> No concrete examples, but of course it would happen. Else the appeals
> process wouldn't make much sense ;-) Appeals are rigged against the
> applicant because Immigration Judges are not independent; they still
> report to the same boss as the adjudicators. But the next level of appeals
> would be the federal court system, which is independent.
> --
> Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I
encourage
> everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
> newsgroups.
> Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
> http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
> Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under
construction)
> My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
> my Web site for information on how to contact me.
> Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
> http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
handy he could have asked him about it, rather than trick him into silence.
Beside, if I could remember where I put my wallet last night I would be
happy. People forget small details, especially in high stress situations,
and that does not constitute a bad moral character.
"Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
news
[email protected]...> On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:08:54 -0700, dennee wrote:
> > "Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
> > news:...
> >> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 08:39:37 -0700, dennee wrote:
> >>
> >> >> I know of at least one case
> >> >> where a naturalization was denied even though an attorney filed it
> >> >> and said that it should go smoothly (the reason for the denial had
> >> >> to do with having had problems entering as a tourist years earlier.
> >> >> Quite an unusual situation).
> >> >>
> >> > I forgot to ask. What happens after denial? Can that person apply
> >> > again or not? How come that didn't happen before when he went through
> >> > green card process?
> >>
> >> It depends on the reason for the denial. In this particular case, the
> >> denial wasn't because of the actual problem - that had been forgiven
> >> during the GC process - but because he forgot about it and didn't
> >> mention it in the interview. The adjudicator considered this lying and
> >> evidence of bad moral character. In order to qualify for
> >> naturalization, you have to show good moral character during the past
> >> five years. That means that he could reapply five years + one day after
> >> the interview - of course, only if the denial isn't overturned on
> >> appeal.
> >>
> >> --
> > Hi Ingo,
> >
> > Did they told him during the GC process about that particular problem,
> > or not? Were they aware of that at GC interview and they let him go with
> > that problem? Aren't they suposed to look and check his behaviour in the
> > last five years after he got GC, not before it?
> Well, the problem in this case wasn't actually what happened years
> earlier, but that the person did not mention it during the naturalization
> interview.
> > Are you aware of any cases where the denial was overturned on appeal?
> No concrete examples, but of course it would happen. Else the appeals
> process wouldn't make much sense ;-) Appeals are rigged against the
> applicant because Immigration Judges are not independent; they still
> report to the same boss as the adjudicators. But the next level of appeals
> would be the federal court system, which is independent.
> --
> Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I
encourage
> everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
> newsgroups.
> Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
> http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
> Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under
construction)
> My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
> my Web site for information on how to contact me.
> Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
> http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
Jun 24th 2003, 11:03 pm
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:43:10 -0700, Dan wrote:
> This practice is upsetting, really. If the adjudicator had that
> information handy he could have asked him about it, rather than trick
> him into silence.
>
> Beside, if I could remember where I put my wallet last night I would be
> happy. People forget small details, especially in high stress
> situations, and that does not constitute a bad moral character.
I agree, and I think that the attorney is trying to appeal on this basis.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
> This practice is upsetting, really. If the adjudicator had that
> information handy he could have asked him about it, rather than trick
> him into silence.
>
> Beside, if I could remember where I put my wallet last night I would be
> happy. People forget small details, especially in high stress
> situations, and that does not constitute a bad moral character.
I agree, and I think that the attorney is trying to appeal on this basis.
--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.
Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under construction)
My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.
Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
Jun 25th 2003, 1:46 am
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: N-400: Through attorney or direct?
BTW, there are several interesting legal precedents on this issue:
The most widely known is Plewa vs. INS:
http://www.callyourlawyers.com/goodmoral.html
Basically, the court has decided that in order to establish lack of good
moral character in case of an incorrect answer during a natz. interview,
there should be an intent to deceive .
"Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:43:10 -0700, Dan wrote:
> > This practice is upsetting, really. If the adjudicator had that
> > information handy he could have asked him about it, rather than trick
> > him into silence.
> >
> > Beside, if I could remember where I put my wallet last night I would be
> > happy. People forget small details, especially in high stress
> > situations, and that does not constitute a bad moral character.
> I agree, and I think that the attorney is trying to appeal on this basis.
> --
> Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I
encourage
> everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
> newsgroups.
> Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
> http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
> Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under
construction)
> My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
> my Web site for information on how to contact me.
> Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
> http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
The most widely known is Plewa vs. INS:
http://www.callyourlawyers.com/goodmoral.html
Basically, the court has decided that in order to establish lack of good
moral character in case of an incorrect answer during a natz. interview,
there should be an intent to deceive .
"Ingo Pakleppa" wrote in message
news
[email protected]...> On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:43:10 -0700, Dan wrote:
> > This practice is upsetting, really. If the adjudicator had that
> > information handy he could have asked him about it, rather than trick
> > him into silence.
> >
> > Beside, if I could remember where I put my wallet last night I would be
> > happy. People forget small details, especially in high stress
> > situations, and that does not constitute a bad moral character.
> I agree, and I think that the attorney is trying to appeal on this basis.
> --
> Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I
encourage
> everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
> newsgroups.
> Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
> http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml
> Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under
construction)
> My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
> my Web site for information on how to contact me.
> Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
> http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.
