Dave Gimbel

Mother was a US citizen, born and raised, came to Canada in 1932, I was born
1947. I have been refused citizenship. Has anyone received dual US-Canadian
citizenship and how did you do it?

supernav

To received "derivitive" citizenship -- she must've resided in teh US i believe 2 of the past 5 years b4 your birth. That is if she didn't register your birth at the consulate. If either two aren't present -- then you can't claim citizenship.

Now if you *truly* believe you are/were a US citizen, you can probably pass through the POE with just an oral declaration of US citizenship since the req's to enter is a bit less then actually trying to obtain proof of USC -- which as you found out, is stricter and can result in refusal if the official guidelines aren't met.

Now if your mom can document with letters, proof, etc. that she resided in the US b4 your birth -- you'll need to put that in your application so you can receive your certificate.

-= nav =-

Jaj

Have a look at this page:
http://www.grasmick.com/citizen.htm

The rules depend on when you were born. If your mother naturalised as
a British subject or Canadian citizen before you were born, this might
also mean she was not a US citizen at the time of your birth. I'm not
100% clear on this, someone like Rich Wales could clarify further.

Note that there may be tax issues if you are a US citizen.

Jeremy

    >On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 00:22:00 -0500, "Dave Gimbel" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Mother was a US citizen, born and raised, came to Canada in 1932, I was born
    >1947. I have been refused citizenship. Has anyone received dual US-Canadian
    >citizenship and how did you do it?

This is not intended to be legal advice in any jurisdiction

Rich Wales

"supernav" wrote:

> [In order for you t]o receive "derivative" citizenship --
> she must've resided in the US (I believe) 2 of the past 5
> years b4 your birth.

Not quite.

First, the rule you're probably thinking of (which applies to someone
born outside the US to a married couple consisting of one US citizen
parent and one foreign parent) requires the American parent to have
spent at least five years in the US -- during one or more periods of
time (not necessarily a single five-year stretch) -- at any time in
his/her life prior to the child's birth (not necessarily just before
the birth). In addition to this five-year requirement, the American
parent must also have spent at least two years in the US at some time
in his/her life after his/her 14th birthday.

Note that the requirement is for actual, literal physical presence
in the US. Residing in the US (i.e., having one's home located in
the US) is =not= enough (time spent travelling abroad doesn't count,
whereas time spent travelling in the US =does= count even if one's
home is in another country).

All the required presence in the US by the American parent must have
taken place =before= the child's foreign birth, or else the child
simply does not have any basis for acquiring US citizenship via this
rule.

Second, the rule has been different for people born at different
times. The version I just described is the way it's been for people
born on or after 14 November 1986. Prior to that, the requirement
was for the American parent to have spent at least ten (not five)
years in the US -- including at least five (not two) years after the
parent's 14th birthday.

And for a person born prior to 24 December 1952, the rules were
different yet again. In that case, the American parent must have
resided in (i.e., had one's home in) the US for at least ten years,
including at least five years after the parent's 16th (not 14th)
birthday. Still other, different variations on this general theme
apply to people born before 13 January 1941; Congress has tinkered
with the law several times, and the operative version of the law
is the version that was in effect when a given individual was born.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Stephen Gallagher

    > Mother was a US citizen, born and raised, came to Canada in 1932, I was born
    > 1947. I have been refused citizenship. Has anyone received dual US-Canadian
    > citizenship and how did you do it?

More information is needed. In particular, how much time did your
mother spend in the US (in total) before you were born, and in
what year was she born.

We also need to know if your mother was still a US citizen when you
were born, and was she married to your father when you were born.

These points matter because the rules for derivative citizenship
depend on these factors, and they have changed several times.

Stephen Gallagher

Mystikal Lady

Excuse Me If I am Incorrect but the US mother tranfers Citizenship to
her child directly. If she was born in the US then all you should do
it apply for a US Passport.


[email protected] (Rich Wales) wrote in message news:<[email protected] rg>...
    > "supernav" wrote:
    >
    > > [In order for you t]o receive "derivative" citizenship --
    > > she must've resided in the US (I believe) 2 of the past 5
    > > years b4 your birth.
    >
    > Not quite.
    >
    > First, the rule you're probably thinking of (which applies to someone
    > born outside the US to a married couple consisting of one US citizen
    > parent and one foreign parent) requires the American parent to have
    > spent at least five years in the US -- during one or more periods of
    > time (not necessarily a single five-year stretch) -- at any time in
    > his/her life prior to the child's birth (not necessarily just before
    > the birth). In addition to this five-year requirement, the American
    > parent must also have spent at least two years in the US at some time
    > in his/her life after his/her 14th birthday.
    >
    > Note that the requirement is for actual, literal physical presence
    > in the US. Residing in the US (i.e., having one's home located in
    > the US) is =not= enough (time spent travelling abroad doesn't count,
    > whereas time spent travelling in the US =does= count even if one's
    > home is in another country).
    >
    > All the required presence in the US by the American parent must have
    > taken place =before= the child's foreign birth, or else the child
    > simply does not have any basis for acquiring US citizenship via this
    > rule.
    >
    > Second, the rule has been different for people born at different
    > times. The version I just described is the way it's been for people
    > born on or after 14 November 1986. Prior to that, the requirement
    > was for the American parent to have spent at least ten (not five)
    > years in the US -- including at least five (not two) years after the
    > parent's 14th birthday.
    >
    > And for a person born prior to 24 December 1952, the rules were
    > different yet again. In that case, the American parent must have
    > resided in (i.e., had one's home in) the US for at least ten years,
    > including at least five years after the parent's 16th (not 14th)
    > birthday. Still other, different variations on this general theme
    > apply to people born before 13 January 1941; Congress has tinkered
    > with the law several times, and the operative version of the law
    > is the version that was in effect when a given individual was born.
    >
    > Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
    > *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
    > or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
    > are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Dave Gimbel

Mother was born May 26, 1914. Mother was 162 days short of her 18th
birthday, before comming to Canada. Her trip to Canada was for a visit,
arriving in November of 1932. However the bad weather prevented her and my
dad from returning to North Dakota (her home) While in Ontario they lived
with my aunt. In 1933 my brother was born and dad found work in Guelph.
That's where they moved to and settled into their first home together.
Remember this was the depression.
she was a US citizen when I was born.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Gallagher" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: misc.immigration.usa
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: Mother was US citizen-I have been refused. Any ideas?


    > > Mother was a US citizen, born and raised, came to Canada in 1932, I was
born
    > > 1947. I have been refused citizenship. Has anyone received dual
US-Canadian
    > > citizenship and how did you do it?
    > More information is needed. In particular, how much time did your
    > mother spend in the US (in total) before you were born, and in
    > what year was she born.
    > We also need to know if your mother was still a US citizen when you
    > were born, and was she married to your father when you were born.
    > These points matter because the rules for derivative citizenship
    > depend on these factors, and they have changed several times.
    > Stephen Gallagher
"Stephen Gallagher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > > Mother was a US citizen, born and raised, came to Canada in 1932, I was
born
    > > 1947. I have been refused citizenship. Has anyone received dual
US-Canadian
    > > citizenship and how did you do it?
    > More information is needed. In particular, how much time did your
    > mother spend in the US (in total) before you were born, and in
    > what year was she born.
    > We also need to know if your mother was still a US citizen when you
    > were born, and was she married to your father when you were born.
    > These points matter because the rules for derivative citizenship
    > depend on these factors, and they have changed several times.
    > Stephen Gallagher

Rich Wales

"Mystikal Lady" wrote:

> Excuse me if I am incorrect but the US mother tranfers
> citizenship to her child directly. If she was born in
> the US then all you should do is apply for a US passport.

You are, indeed, incorrect. See the following:

Immigration and Nationality Act, sec. 301 (8 USC 1401)

Immigration and Nationality Act, sec. 309 (8 USC 1409)

http://travel.state.gov/acquisition.html

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Rich Wales

Dave Gimbel wrote:

> Mother was born May 26, 1914. Mother was 162 days short
> of her 18th birthday, before coming to Canada. Her trip
> to Canada was for a visit, arriving in November of 1932.
> However the bad weather prevented her and my dad from
> returning to North Dakota (her home).

I'm sorry, but it doesn't sound to me like you have a birth claim
to US citizenship.

Since (as you said) you were born in 1947, you would have a birth
claim to US citizenship through your mother only if your mother
had resided in the US for at least ten years prior to your birth
-- including at least five years after her 16th birthday. (That's
not the way the law currently reads for children born nowadays,
but that is the way it read when you were born in 1947, and that's
what would apply in your case.)

If your mother left the US and settled in Canada at age 17, she
would not have satisfied the requirement to have resided in the US
for at least five years after her 16th birthday, unless she moved
back to the US at some later time (but still prior to your birth)
and lived in the US for another 3-plus-something years in order to
satisfy the five-year requirement.

The fact that your mother lived in the US until age 17 would not,
in and of itself, be enough for you to claim US citizenship through
her.

Now, I'm making a couple of assumptions here. First, I'm assuming
your father is/was not a US citizen (I don't believe you said one
way or the other). If it happens that both your mother and your
father were US citizens at the time of your birth, a =much= simpler
and easier rule applies. In this case, you would have US citizen-
ship at birth provided =either= of your parents had =ever= lived in
the US, at =any= time in their lives (prior to your birth), and for
=any= amount of time -- something which your mother clearly did.
But again, this easier rule would apply =only= if you were the
child of =two= American parents (not just of one American parent).

I'm also assuming your parents married (each other) before your
birth. Please forgive me for bringing up what might sound like a
rude comment here, but the rules for a child born "out of wedlock"
to an American mother outside the US are more permissive than for
a child born "in wedlock" to a married couple consisting of an
American mother and an alien father. The current rule says that
a child in such a situation is a US citizen provided the single
American mother had spent at least one continuous full year in
the US at some time (any time) in her life prior to the child's
birth. I'm not totally sure if this same rule applied prior to
1952 -- and, in any case, it doesn't matter in your situation if
your parents were married.

So, unless your mom went back to live in the US for another 3-1/2
years prior to your birth -- or unless your father was also a US
citizen -- or unless you were born out of wedlock -- it doesn't
sound to me like you are a US citizen by birth through your mom.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Mystikal Lady

I have been following this thread and I have to respectfully disagree
with the opinions that have been posted.
This is what the website said,
"Birth Abroad Out-of-Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen Mother: A child born
abroad out-of-wedlock to a U.S. citizen mother may acquire U.S.
citizenship under Section 301(g) INA, as made applicable by Section
309(c) INA if the mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of the child's
birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the
United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous
period of one year"

With the mother the requirements for derivative US citizenship change.
As you can see clearly a child born to a US mother(out of wedlock) CAN
get US citizenship providing the mother has lived in the US for at
least a year.
With the USC father the requirements change to years.
Can anyone specifically site the law thaat states that a child born of
a USC mother is not a USC.
Thanks

Rich Wales

"Mystikal Lady" wrote:

> I have been following this thread and I have to respectfully
> disagree with the opinions that have been posted. This is
> what the website said . . . . Can anyone specifically cite
> the law that states that a child born of a USC mother is not
> a USC?

Immigration and Nationality Act, sections 301 and 309 [8 USC 1401
and 1409]. These are the statutes that determine whether a child
born outside the US has automatic US citizenship at birth.

Under certain circumstances, a child born outside the US to a mother
who is a US citizen certainly =is= a US citizen by birth. Examples:

(1) The parents are married, both parents are US citizens, and the
mother (or the father) =ever= lived in the US or its possessions
(at any time, and for any amount of time, even a brief time)
prior to the child's birth -- see INA 301(c) / 8 USC 1401(c).
Note that this particular provision (unlike the other two men-
tioned below) talks about "residence" in the US -- i.e., actually
having one's home there, not just being physically in the US.

(2) The parents are married, the mother is a US citizen, the father
is not a US citizen, and the mother spent enough time in the US
or its possessions prior to the child's birth to satisfy the
requirements of INA 301(g) / 8 USC 1401(g). For children born
on or after 14 November 1986, this US presence requirement is
five years (including at least two years taking place after the
American parent's 14th birthday). For children born earlier,
the requirement was ten years (including at least five years
taking place after the American parent's 14th birthday). See
http://www.grasmick.com/citizen.htm#CITIZENSHIP%20FROM for a
table showing various applicable scenarios.

(3) The parents are =not= married, the mother is a US citizen, and
the mother spent at least one continuous full year in the US or
its possessions prior to the child's birth -- see INA 309(c) /
8 USC 1409(c). Note, FWIW, that it's much easier to establish
under the law that a non-US-born child of an American mother
is a US citizen if the child was born out of wedlock than if
the mother was married to an alien.

However, it's still possible for a child to be born outside the US
to a mother who is a US citizen, and the for the child =not= to have
US citizenship by birth. For example, a foreign-born child of a US
citizen mother married to an alien father, where the mother was born
in the US but moved abroad as a child and never returned to spend
any appreciable time in the US later in life -- or where the mother
was born outside the US (to an American parent or parents) but never
spent any time in the US at all -- would not qualify for US citizen-
ship at birth under any of the applicable statutes.

The reason I objected to your earlier posting is that it sounded
like you were saying that a child born outside the US to an American
mother was =always= automatically a US citizen, and that all such a
person would =ever= have to do in order to get a US passport would
be to establish that his/her mother was a US citizen. The situation
just isn't as simple as that; US officials are still going to insist
on seeing documentation of the mother's marriage (if any), the
citizenship of the father (if he was also a US citizen), and time
spent in the US by the mother before the child's birth.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.