Leslie

Sennia,

Of course you are absolutely right. What I should have said was that it really annoys me to hear Americans criticise this country without attempting to affect change.

Don't you think it's wonderful to live in a country where you can actually "expect" anything at all.

I would be a fool not to acquiesce on the point made about freedom of speech. It is American freedom of speech that allowed the original poster to feel comfortable enough to criticise the US. However, I have no patience for people who criticise the U.S., without attempting to affect change. I "criticise" my government everytime I vote.

I was moved by Olenka's experience and bitter disappointments as an attorney in the Ukraine. I've spent the last week having many tear-filled conversations with my husband, about a similar situation in our family. His sister, a recent college graduate, top of her class. Accepted a position to teach math and science in a remote mountain top village in Morocco. This village has no electricity or plumbing, neither does the school she would be teaching in. She didn't accept this position because she is a great philanthropist, she accepted it because it was the only one she was offered. Most of the young people she graduated with were offered nothing at all. Her family helped her move all of her belongings (10 hour round trip by car) from Marakesh, a modern and beautiful city. She taught for one week and then was told that she would probably not be able to stay on because there were not enough children to justify them keeping her on and their priority was with the more senior instructors. The reason attendance is down is that more and more rural families are having to pull their children out of school at younger ages and send them to work to help support the families. We are waiting for the verdict, but it seems pretty likely she'll be coming home. The real kicker is, she would have not even started to receive a salary until after one year. Teachers in Morocco are required to work the entire first year for no salary, as it is considered their "apprenticeship". This type of thing is considered quite normal to Moroccan's and they have to be very careful not to criticise their government or complain too much, or they may ruin future opportunities for themselves.

Leslie

Leslie

(QUOTE)
Prior to 1822: What is today Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and California are all spainish colonies.
(QUOTE)


I'm with David 9287. Right or wrong, as history proves, many peoples, nations and cultures have been conquered, destroyed, displaced, oppressed and enslaved in the name of colonization. The U.S. is relatively new to this time honoured tradition.

The whole fallacy in your argument lies in one small detail. These were Spanish colonies, not Mexican colonies. Spain had invaded and conquered Mexico centuries before. The US "stole" these colonies from Spain, who "stole" them from varied ethnic groups that we now know as "Mexico", long before we ever showed up on the scene.

Leslie

Mrtravel

Daxpeace wrote:

    > Did you know that until 1848 California, New Mexico and other portions
    > of the Southwest were internationally recognized provinces of free
    > Mexico, until the U.S. decided it wanted those provinces, declared war
    > on Mexico, and stole them? Read on for the chronology of these events,
    > and then ask yourself "Who are the real illegals in California?"

How did Mexico become the "owner' of California???

Mrtravel

Leslie66 wrote:
    > (QUOTE)
    >
    > Prior to 1822: What is today Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico,
    > Colorado, Utah, and California are all spainish colonies.

And Spain "stole" them from who??

Leslie

The Aztecs and the Incas.

Dekka's Angel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David9287
Umm, just to be pedantic.

Africa is not a nation.

It is a continent. A big one. With lots of nations on it. Some big. Some small.

Which has far more to offer the world than the minerals still being dragged out of it by the western world to further its wealth and the "corruption, disease and hunger" that everyone remembers from their visits there.

But again, that's the problem with colonialism - generations later when the effects are still around, folks just believe that this is the way it always is, and always was.

/sigh

Daxpeace

It seems like some people here are saying that the U.S. should be forgiven for invading and conquering and massacring so many people over history (like the 1,000,000 Vietnamese, the millions of Native Americans, the innocent civilians firebombed in Dresden, the 10,000 Panamanians, the tens of thousands of Iraqis, the thousands of Afghanis - like those people happily celebrating a wedding, or the tens of thousands of Japanese killed by our radiation bombs - or whatever you like to call them).

I disagree. I think there should be a world 'Truth and Reconciliation' commission, like they have in South Africa. I think we should be able to try people like Henry Kissinger and George Bush for war crimes, and for crimes against humanity.

Daxpeace

I'm afraid the Aztecs and the Incas didn't live in the American Southwest. It was the Anasazi, the Navajo, the Hopi, the Cheyenne, etc. Yes, they were colonized by the Spanish, and were a part of the country of Mexico. But they had more rights than under the Yankee Colonialists. And the fact remains, the US instigated a war of aggression against its southern neighbor just for a land grab. I don't think any type of colonialism was right, but I'd rather critisize my own country's misdeed's than Spains.

You should read Thoreau's "Walden" and "Civil Disobedience". In it, he explains why the war was wrong, and how he refused to pay taxes to support it.

That's what we should be doing today.

Mrtravel

Daxpeace wrote:

    > I'm afraid the Aztecs and the Incas didn't live in the American
    > Southwest. It was the Anasazi, the Navajo, the Hopi, the Cheyenne, etc.
    > Yes, they were colonized by the Spanish, and were a part of the country
    > of Mexico. But they had more rights than under the Yankee Colonialists.
    > And the fact remains, the US instigated a war of aggression against its
    > southern neighbor just for a land grab. I don't think any type of
    > colonialism was right, but I'd rather critisize my own country's
    > misdeed's than Spains.

So what? That was a long time ago. I wasn't involved.
Do I blame 40 year old Germans for the Holocaust??????

Leslie

Now your being pedantic . I know where the Aztecs and Incas were. I was generalizing about the Spanish invasions.

As far as native Americans, don't forget the Comanche's, a people almost destroyed, and the Karankawa Indians, a non-violent people who are now completely extinct. The descendents of the original British settlers are pretty much to blame for the plight of the Comanche's. The Karankawa however were tormented by first the Spanish, then the French and then finished off by the American colonials. I'm curious why anyone would rather criticise one country over another. I think the history of the world proves that man is a pretty horrible creature and a dreadful neighbor.

Thanks but, I have read "Civil Disobedience". I believe in non-violent protest of your own government in certain cases. I even believe in violent protest in extreme cases, the American Revolution comes to mind.

As far as not paying taxes to protest something, I think you should be more specific. It seems your current complaints about the U.S. tend to be about urban violence and having to travel too far to embassy's when applying for visa's. I don't think that refusing to pay your taxes will be very effective in either of these cases. If you are referring to the war in Iraq (I think it's a little late for Viet Nam, but thanks for bringing up something that we can't do anything about now, that is very helpful). I did not support the war in Iraq. I did not vote for Bush and I will do everything I personally can to see him voted out of office. I will continue to pay my taxes even though I don't relish the thought of it. If you truly believe that refusing to pay your taxes will help those poor people in Iraq, then more power to you. I just happen to disagree.

Leslie

Hypertweeky

Hey hey hey... the Spaniards didn't steal anything lol.
BTW guys.. let's just quit talking about history and have some fun. Hey does anyone know how long it takes to get the NOA first from Chicago??.

Leslie

OK. It's all getting a bit heavy . My first NOA from Chicago just took a few days. It was faster than my first NOA from Texas for the 130 (and I live ing Texas.) Did you send it certified?

Leslie

Richard III

Weren't the British involved in this particular incident -

Richard III

Leslie

Yes, but the OP is using different quips and quotes out of context and I'm too lazy to pick apart each and every one of them.

Leslie

Dresden - Blame Hitler (remember the Holocaust)
Japan - Ever heard of Pearl Harbor?
Afghanistan - Ever heard of the 9-11 World Trade Center bombing.