CharlieS

I'm sorry you had to endure such a crappy POE experience but look at the larger picture, you are both together now and the tough part is over.
At the beginning of this year I was refused entry into the USA, my documents were very much not in order. When I attempted this re-entry I was very naive in the ways of immigration and so battled on, being the head-strong person that I am.
Even though I was furious at the refusal, and was kept waiting in an interview office for hours with absolutely no idea as to what was going on, I managed to keep 2 things in my mind:
1. That these people were doing a job based on the security of the country I had become to know as home
2. In situations such as these, I always refered to the people in power as 'sir' or 'ma'am', the result of my upbringing.

I had 2 particular officers that I wished many bad things upon, they were total bastards to me and treated me with nothing but contempt. (I am English so I don't think profiling came into it, but I'm pretty sure that diplomacy was not a part of their training).
One of the officers was Hispanic and took great delight in telling me that it took him years to acheive USC status, but he did it and he was now a reflection of everything he once had to go through as an Immigrant.

By the end of my ordeal the crux of the situation had not changed, they were not going to allow me entrance. However, they were the ones that advised me on the protocol of a K1/K3 visa, they also made a big point of ensuring me that a simple refusal to enter would be placed on my record and nothing that could affect me in the future. They also became very apologetic, even to the point of giving me their direct phone line should I have a lawyer that wants to contact them for pointers that would allow the situation to be resolved.


My point being:

Sure, the POE can really suck and sure, sometimes I believe the officers get a little carried away with their power. But it isn't out of vindictiveness, they take the responsibility of their job very seriously. As one of them said to me, noone wants to be the person responsible for letting in someone that would go on to become a terrorist or any other kind of problem to the country. This is the cloud that they work under.

Talk to any irish person that entered England 20 years ago and you will see similar stories (albeit without a POE so to speak), it isn't about the individual, its about the bigger picture, and that being the security and peace of mind of every person living in the country that you are trying to enter.

I hope the rest of your process is painless and smooth, and the very fact that you are both now together outweighs the couple of hours you endured at the airport.

CharlieS

This is so true.
I'm going through the process of getting my daughter (USC) joint citizenship in the UK purely so she can travel on a British passport when in Europe, so hopefully she will avoid this sort of situation in the future.

Sad but true that Americans are not very popular in many countries of the world, but that isn't a reflection on a specific American in general. It is very much a "swings and roundabouts" situation.

sibsie

Excellent points Chazza. And also a jetlagged tired passenger, and an immigration officer isn't always the best of matches.

Leslie

Hi Matt,

I know.

I was responding to supernav's remarks about the "nature of the area" that llorona's fiance came from in relation to the 9-11 attacks. The area that her fiance came from had absolutely nothing to do with the 9-11 attacks. We are talking about an ally of the United States that sits on the Mediterranean. This a beautiful country and tourism is their #1 industry. Not only are American's and Europeans safe there, they are welcome. Supernav and others like him continue to paint with a very broad and ignorant brush. Not only does this perpetuate fear and misunderstanding, it continues to make American's look egocentric and uneducated. Citizens of other countries have a much more sophisticated world view than many in the U.S. They actually take the time to learn about other countries and cultures before making offensive comments about them.

Leslie

Leslie

Hi Matt,

I cannot speak for Muslims. I can only speak from my own experience. For one thing, there are different observations of Islam, just like Christianity. You have Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, etc. They are all considered "Christian" but if you've visited these different churches they are drastically different. The Baptist Church does not recognize the Virgin Mother as divine where the Catholic church does and so on. There may be some Muslim males that ask/require their wives to convert. I had this discussion with my husband before we even became romantic, because I am too mistrusting of organized religion to "convert" to anything. For me, commiting entirely to one religion and one religion only, is contradictory to critical thinking and I would be insincere if I did convert. That is what I told him in so many words. Actually I said, "I cannot imagine ever converting to Islam." He asked if I was interested in studying it, and was shocked by how much I already knew. I am always asking him questions and it is an open discussion topic between us. Anyway, his father is a very devout but very progressive religious man. He actually leads prayer counsels and based on the teachings of the prophet Mohammed. He advises us all the time. I find his advice to be full of common sense and respect. Respect not only for ourselves, but all people we may affect with our decisions. But, I'm still not going to convert.

Leslie

Leslie

Yes, and all Texans are rednecks.

I can tell you that my husband is the least domineering man I've ever been involved with. He was raised in a home where the boys did just as much housework as the girls. The girls were all encouraged to pursue their educations and careers. I can't speak for all Arab men, but this is the case with all the Moroccan families I've met. In fact, as far as I can tell, the mother always rules the house. Period. Full stop.

Leslie

Leslie

Ok. I'll be civilized.

Does the evil eye count?

Folinskyinla

Hi:

Slightly OT -- there is also a tendency for people, including law enforcement, to hear what they expect to hear. I recall my friend Vera telling me aobut an exclusion hearing she had some time ago for a client detained at TID in San Pedro.

Client had landed at LAX and immediately asked for asylum. She was interviewed extensively via a Tamil interpreter provided by the airline. And a written statement was taken. She is detained at TID

Relatives retain Vera. Vera did a lot of Tamil cases and had an interprter she used a lot. Vera is damn good lawyer and ascertains from client what she said at LAX -- which we will call XYZ. Now XYZ is quite memorable story and clearly establishes asylum.

XYZ is the stroy told at ASPO interview and results in "credible fear" finding and she is set up for proceedings before the immigratin judge.

Client tells XYZ to the court. However, former INS challenges credibility of client because she said ABC at the airport. Client is insistant that there was no way she said ABC, it was so far from the truth, she would have not said that no matter how tired and jet lagged and scared she was.

INS brings in airport inspector. He authenticates the written statement and describes how he transcribed the questions he asked and the answers provided via the interpreter into his laptop and immediately printed it out for signature.

Judge is purturbed and orders INS to get that interpreter into court and continues hearing. [Becuase it was a custody matter and INS doesn't like paying detention costs -- it was a continuance of a few days].

So INS put the interpreter on the stand as their OWN witness. She verifies she was the interpreter present. She confirms that INS officer had transcribed the interview. Interpreter adds in gratuitous comment that aliens story was quite memorable in fact. INS then has the interpreter examine the written statement to confirm it is accuarate. INS's OWN witness then goes "Oh, no, This is wrong. The lady said XYZ and I have no idea where this ABC came from." The interpreter then gratutitously added that she had NOT read the statement back to the alien becuase the INS officer was in a hurry.

Vera declined to cross examine and asylum was granted.

BTW, there is a 9th Circuit case from July 2002 called Paramasamy v Ashcroft, 295 F.3rd 1047 where Immigration Judge Anna Ho in Seattle would make BOILERPLATE adverse credibility findings in female Tamil asylum cases. The court of appeals stated that although "boilerplate" has its uses, it is not in the place of invidualized credibility findings.

Noorah101

Who generally provides interpreters if necessary at the POE? I'll be coming through with my Iranian fiance, whose English is weak. If they separate us to ask questions, I'm sure he'll need an interpreter. If they ask him questions in front of me, would they let me do the interpreting?

Rene

Leslie

Like Timothy McVeigh?

I won't even go there on the MULIM ISLAMIC MALE thing. Mr. F. already pointed that out. You must work in the Department of Redundancy Department.

So are you saying there are no Irish terrorists?



It's my skyscraper too, Archie Bunker. Being obnoxious and racist does not make you more patriotic than me.

Hebapotamus42

You have very interesting views on all topics I see. My US passport has always resulted in my receiving excellent treatment. And I'm talking about travel in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, two countries the citizens of which people like you are convinced they despise the US. I feel bad for what the OP's fiancee/husband went thru, but my advice to her is to grin and bear it. It may have been nasty, but he's in, and that's all that matters now. Crap happens. I'm glad to see you're all for profiling. It seems you have an inferiority complex that you can't overcome but it makes you feel superior when you see that people who are different from you are the ones getting picked on. Why not deport all young muslim males if that's going to make you feel better? Is that sort of profiling going to prevent you from getting mugged or shot on the street or getting killed by a drunk driver? I wonder what your views would be if Russia became an enemy again.

Matt,
I know that muslim/arab men are thought to be domineering. Being a muslim myself, I can say that while many households are traditional with the wife staying home and the husband working, this has nothing to do with a man being domineering or not although it's often interpreted that way. In reality, all men are human regardless of their ethnic or religious background, and being human makes each one have a unique personality. In consequence, many men are domineering jerks and others are gentle lambs who often get bullied by their wives. So arab men are as diverse as other men of different races. I've seen all types.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

I think Matt made it clear that it IS a stereotype and not necessarily one he subscribed to.

I have found that in 28 years of practice, I have formed certain national stereotypes. They can be useful tools in dealing with people, but you have to ALWAYS be aware that they are just that -- stereotypes which MAY provide useful background information.

Folinskyinla

Hi Rene:

You have to remember that lawyers are NOT allowed in the airport inspections area. So our information is based upon reports from our clients, groups like this one, and limited contact with the inspection people. So I can't answer your question.

BTW, every so often in the past, the Los Angeles County Bar Association Immigration Section would arrange for tours of the airport facilities at LAX.

We're overdue for one, but CBP refuses to schedule one for unstated "reasons of security."

A further BTW, and I may have related this story on this NG in the past. I defended an LPR abandonment case arising out of an application for entry at LAX in January 2002. At our final hearing in 2003, the IJ who is famous for cutting hearings short, cut off the government saying "its obvious this man didn't abandon." [This IJ has been chastised in two published court of appeals cases for cutting off the alien's case -- one of those cases was MINE, and the IJ saw me in the building coffee shop and congratulated me. He is difficult, but I like him a lot].

As I said, no attorneys allowed in airport inspections, right? Well, they DID allow the man's US citizen wife to sit with him in the interrogation. Imagine Reese Witherspoon in "Legally Blond" 12 years out of law school and you will have the wife in this case. That's right, the wife a beautiful blond with a bar card -- and although she knew nothing about immigration, she DID know criminal defense.

So, as they are taking the written statement after a long trans-Pacific flight, INS had no problem with the wife snuggling up to her husband and didn't think twice about her having her hands all over him. Hubby caught on right quick that having his middle finger bent backwards, a jab in the side, or a stomp on his foot was his wife's way of telling him to "shut up!" and letting her say "Honey, didn't it happen this way?" and he would go "right". The wife dictated the written statement under INS's nose.

At the beginning, when I saw the written statement, I was shocked and I told the client "This is exactly what I would have told you to say if I had had the chance to prepare you in advance." Hubby then sheeplishly told me what had happened. I then told the wife that she was an excellent lawyer and they would therefore be the clients from Hell -- I said that with a smile and wife responded "Becuase I'm going to ask questions?" and she smiled too.

I really enjoyed that case.

Hebapotamus42

Oh, yes I took notice of that. My little essay was aimed mainly towards those who don't really know what to believe and are too timid to admit it.
That's true. People shouldn't get so upset when someone assumes something incorrectly about them. That's why I feel bad for the OP but I think she should just let it go. I'm more concerned with the manner of the interviewers than the questions asked. I don't think they were going too far with questions, though I admit I was surprised that such extensive interviews take place at the POE. I had always thought that they just review the brown envelope and ask a couple of questions and that's it.

Pallyn

was surprised that such extensive interviews take place at the POE. I had always thought that they just review the brown envelope and ask a couple of questions and that's it.


__________________

My husband was questioned quite thoroughly when he entered on the K-1. It was probably profiling based on the Jamaican reputation for working women for visas, but he didn't really worry about it. He was questioned about how and where we met, how he knew he I was the right one, when and where we planned to be married, etc. He was the very last person to make it through. He came through smiling, simply because he came through. The questioning may have been taken as aggressive by someone else, he just read it as another step in the process. They did not call me in and I don't recall him talking about any rude behaviour. I would recommend being present and available at the POE.