airbusfan

the second part of my statement explains why it is sad.

Also, if you read the article it is more articulate than I can type on here

fatbrit

The article is oblivious to the historical context. The LA Times is not an infallible religious work.

airbusfan

Have you read the article? It was intended as a temporary program. Now the needs are different.
(not a big fan of religious work either)

fatbrit

I've read the article. The author ignores the historical context.

zerlesen

I don't think I agree with that, but even supposing so it's not a rationale to keep the lottery in place for the indefinite future. A lot of things made America the country it is today, most of them no longer present and many of them undesirable.

fatbrit

I think the visa made more sense than, say, the H1b. All that does is undercut the wages of American IT workers.

DavidLemon

I thought there was a clause in the application that states the employee must pay the going rate for these positions. In fact im sure they even have to declare the rate as part of the visa process. I could be wrong but im sure i saw something along these lines during my application. The purpose of said clause is to ensure the exact opposite of your statement, to not undercut the average American worker by gaining cheaper foreign imports.

zerlesen

Ha, touché. Even the H-1Bs who don't work in IT?

Unlike the DV lottery, though, I can make a case for work visas that doesn't just rely on tradition or historical grievances. It'll be predictably partisan, because I'm an EB immigrant and former H-1B (who didn't undercut anyone's wages, thankyouverymuch), but I can make it.

fatbrit

Pay them a salary, demand twice the productivity. The H1b is indentured servitude for many from outside the first world. I don't see it benefits the US worker at all, only a company's bottom line. Now you can't hang that on the DV, can you?

helpmeplease123

It doesn't benefit the US workers necessarily, no but assuming you're going to have immigration/visas surely the best thing for a country is to get the best and brightest from abroad to try and advance the country as much as possible. It's a romantic notion but the existence of extensive social security benefits, Medicaid etc. that didn't exist historically means that those unskilled immigrants often just become a burden to the US rather than an entrepreneur. Since the US is already dedicating such a huge chunk of its budget to transfers already an struggles with huge unskilled immigration from the south - why grant citizenship to a potential 55,000 more every year. It would be interesting if someone did a follow up study of DV winners 10 years on to see what they did... I'm not saying all will do as above but due to the lack of any job, education, financial requirements... And their knowledge of the help they'll receive in the US, undoubtably some will.

fatbrit

The brightest and the best, eh?
Not the H1b program described here: http://www.gao.gov/assets/320/314501.pdf

If you scroll down to table 5, you'll find we're importing code monkeys -- half the bloody positions are entry level! We have other visas more suitable for the brightest and the best. The H1b is there through lobbying by employers to decimate professional class wages.

The DV is far more akin with the history of America.

helpmeplease123

Then they should change the H1B system... Although are these entry levels straight out of F1- they made be heading towards being "best and brightest". I don't think the history of the US is relevant as discussed above. The needs of the country have changed and the social security unskilled immigrants are met with doesn't lead to the entrepreneurial spirit of the past.

fatbrit

DV immigrants are neither skilled nor unskilled. I'm not sure what DV immigrants have to do with social security. They qualify or don't just like any other permanent resident.

Far better for America just to scrap the H1b visa. There is already a route for the brightest and best in place. Immigration has devastated the blue collar class. No reason to let the H1b devastate their white collar neighbors.

We ignore history at our peril.

zerlesen

This is fun! What next: student visas? How about spouses of USCs?

retzie

US immigration has a clear priority toward family-based applications. Other countries around the world put far more emphasis on skills (Australia, for one). Whether this still suits modern needs, or not, is certainly something that makes for an interesting discussion. I have to say the DV lottery is a strange choice of villain/champion for either side...