Drei

Hi,

I have a friend who is the son of an Italian citizen and who was born
in the U.S. and has never left the country. Recently, he received a
letter from the Italian Consulate in his area concerning updating
personal information for the purpose of establishing a registry of
voters for Italian elections. Prior to that, he had never submitted
any paperwork to the Italian Consulate and had never made any attempt
to acknowledge Italian citizenship. He called the Italian Consulate,
and was told that Italian law automatically causes the son of an
Italian citizen to acquire Italian citizenship at birth. However, the
person at the consulate stressed that there was a distinction between
automatically acquiring Italian citizenship and "fully acknowledging"
Italian citizenship through an application process (which is described
at http://www.italyemb.org/Riconoscimento.htm).

If my friend, who is an American citizen, continues to reside in the
United States, will his formal acknowledgement of Italian citizenship
(as opposed to ignoring the Consulate) affect what Italy is able to
force him to do (in terms of taxes, military obligations, etc.)?

In general, for the case of a person who is both a U.S. citizen and a
citizen of a foreign state, how can the foreign state enforce its laws
on a person while he or she resides in the U.S.?

Bruce Bowe

    > In general, for the case of a person who is both a U.S. citizen and a
    > citizen of a foreign state, how can the foreign state enforce its laws
    > on a person while he or she resides in the U.S.?
This is a travel NG. Since you cross-posted a bunch of different groups,
you may get some opinions. Your question is way off topic. Also,
crossposting is considered rude and against normal usenet behaviour..
Bruce

Aikido251

I believe the law in which a citizen resides as a citizen would apply to
him...check again to be sure.

Luis Oyarzun

No.



L.O.


Dual Citizenship; Acquiring Italian Citizenship

Group: misc.immigration.usa Date: Wed, Feb 12, 2003, 5:13pm (EST-3)
From: [email protected] (drei)
Hi,
I have a friend who is the son of an Italian citizen and who was born in
the U.S. and has never left the country. Recently, he received a letter
from the Italian Consulate in his area concerning updating personal
information for the purpose of establishing a registry of voters for
Italian elections. Prior to that, he had never submitted any paperwork
to the Italian Consulate and had never made any attempt to acknowledge
Italian citizenship. He called the Italian Consulate, and was told that
Italian law automatically causes the son of an Italian citizen to
acquire Italian citizenship at birth. However, the person at the
consulate stressed that there was a distinction between automatically
acquiring Italian citizenship and "fully acknowledging" Italian
citizenship through an application process (which is described at
http://www.italyemb.org/Riconoscimento.htm).
If my friend, who is an American citizen, continues to reside in the
United States, will his formal acknowledgement of Italian citizenship
(as opposed to ignoring the Consulate) affect what Italy is able to
force him to do (in terms of taxes, military obligations, etc.)?
In general, for the case of a person who is both a U.S. citizen and a
citizen of a foreign state, how can the foreign state enforce its laws
on a person while he or she resides in the U.S.?

Richard

in
misc.legal,rec.travel.europe,misc.immigration.usa, alt.politics.immigration
on 12 Feb 2003 17:13:28 -0800 with

drei had the nerve to make the following comments:

d> Hi,

d> I have a friend who is the son of an Italian citizen and who was born
d> in the U.S. and has never left the country. Recently, he received a
d> letter from the Italian Consulate in his area concerning updating
d> personal information for the purpose of establishing a registry of
d> voters for Italian elections. Prior to that, he had never submitted
d> any paperwork to the Italian Consulate and had never made any attempt
d> to acknowledge Italian citizenship. He called the Italian Consulate,
d> and was told that Italian law automatically causes the son of an
d> Italian citizen to acquire Italian citizenship at birth. However, the
d> person at the consulate stressed that there was a distinction between
d> automatically acquiring Italian citizenship and "fully acknowledging"
d> Italian citizenship through an application process (which is described
d> at http://www.italyemb.org/Riconoscimento.htm).

d> If my friend, who is an American citizen, continues to reside in the
d> United States, will his formal acknowledgement of Italian citizenship
d> (as opposed to ignoring the Consulate) affect what Italy is able to
d> force him to do (in terms of taxes, military obligations, etc.)?

d> In general, for the case of a person who is both a U.S. citizen and a
d> citizen of a foreign state, how can the foreign state enforce its laws
d> on a person while he or she resides in the U.S.?


Interesting indeed. I have a cousin who was born in Denmark of all places,
yet within two years was in the USA where both his parents were born and
raised.
So not only is he a USA citizen, but a citizen by birth of Denmark?
could the powers that be demand he pay taxes to them as well?
Perhaps enlist him into the military? if they have one that is.

In your case though, I'd tell the Italian government to shove it up their
butt.
the child was not born in Italy, and legally, has no obligations with them
in any way shape or form.
they can try any claim they want, he doesn't have to do a damn thing.
what are they gonna do about it? Arrest him?

Luca

drei wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have a friend who is the son of an Italian citizen and who was born
    > in the U.S. and has never left the country. Recently, he received a
    > letter from the Italian Consulate in his area concerning updating
    > personal information for the purpose of establishing a registry of
    > voters for Italian elections. Prior to that, he had never submitted
    > any paperwork to the Italian Consulate and had never made any attempt
    > to acknowledge Italian citizenship. He called the Italian Consulate,
    > and was told that Italian law automatically causes the son of an
    > Italian citizen to acquire Italian citizenship at birth. However, the
    > person at the consulate stressed that there was a distinction between
    > automatically acquiring Italian citizenship and "fully acknowledging"
    > Italian citizenship through an application process (which is described
    > at http://www.italyemb.org/Riconoscimento.htm).
    >
    > If my friend, who is an American citizen, continues to reside in the
    > United States, will his formal acknowledgement of Italian citizenship
    > (as opposed to ignoring the Consulate) affect what Italy is able to
    > force him to do (in terms of taxes, military obligations, etc.)?
    >
    > In general, for the case of a person who is both a U.S. citizen and a
    > citizen of a foreign state, how can the foreign state enforce its laws
    > on a person while he or she resides in the U.S.?

Italy does not require citizens who do not reside there to pay taxes,
unless they produce income in Italy. It still does have a draft,
although it's phasing it out but there are ample provisions for non
residents. The cut-off age in any case is 28 (90% sure, check please).

On the plus side, consider that any European passport gives your friend
access to any state in the European Union, including the right to
establish his residence there, work, and obtain basically free health
care there.

Italian law applies to anybody in Italy, whether a citizen or not (just
like the US). The only real issue for a male is the draft.

I'd say ciao this time.

--
The light at the end of the tunnel
has been turned off to save overhead expenses.

Wolfgang Schwanke

"richard" wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > Interesting indeed. I have a cousin who was born in Denmark of all
    > places, yet within two years was in the USA where both his parents
    > were born and raised.
    > So not only is he a USA citizen, but a citizen by birth of Denmark?

That depends on the regulations of Danish citizenship law.
If it contains a ius soli *) type regulation (which I don't know) then he
might be.

    > could the powers that be demand he pay taxes to them as well?

No. You pay taxes to the country on whose soil you earn your money.
Citizenship is irrelevant to taxes.

    > Perhaps enlist him into the military? if they have one that is.

Denmark has a military, and is in NATO. He probably only has to serve
military if he's a citizen AND lives on Danish soil at the time he turns
18. Most countries with military service have regulations to that effect
anyway.

    > In your case though, I'd tell the Italian government to shove it up
    > their butt. the child was not born in Italy, and legally, has no
    > obligations with them in any way shape or form.

If Italian citizen ship law contains a ius sanguini *) type regulation
(which according to the OP seems to be the case), then it doesn't matter
where he was born.

    > they can try any claim
    > they want, he doesn't have to do a damn thing. what are they gonna do
    > about it? Arrest him?

You fail to understand that what they're offering him is a privilege.

Regards

*) ius sanguini vs. ius soli is not an either/or situation. Many countries
have a mix of both.

--
Aprosdoketon, das (gr.): unerwartet gebrauchtes Fremdwort.

Paul Robinson

drei wrote:

    > Hi,
    > I have a friend who is the son of an Italian citizen and who was born
    > in the U.S. and has never left the country. Recently, he received a
    > letter from the Italian Consulate in his area concerning updating
    > personal information for the purpose of establishing a registry of
    > voters for Italian elections. Prior to that, he had never submitted
    > any paperwork to the Italian Consulate and had never made any attempt
    > to acknowledge Italian citizenship. He called the Italian Consulate,
    > and was told that Italian law automatically causes the son of an
    > Italian citizen to acquire Italian citizenship at birth. However, the
    > person at the consulate stressed that there was a distinction between
    > automatically acquiring Italian citizenship and "fully acknowledging"
    > Italian citizenship through an application process (which is described
    > at http://www.italyemb.org/Riconoscimento.htm).
    > If my friend, who is an American citizen, continues to reside in the
    > United States, will his formal acknowledgement of Italian citizenship
    > (as opposed to ignoring the Consulate) affect what Italy is able to
    > force him to do (in terms of taxes, military obligations, etc.)?

Probably not. Unlikely they could impose conscription on him as they
would have to get a U.S. court to order an American Citizen deported to
Italy in order to serve in the military. Want to guess the likelihood of
that happening?

About the only way they could really do anything to him is if he was
physically in Italy at some point, or in some third country willing to
extradite him.

    > In general, for the case of a person who is both a U.S. citizen and a
    > citizen of a foreign state, how can the foreign state enforce its laws
    > on a person while he or she resides in the U.S.?

It can't unless the U.S. Government helps somehow.

It's unlikely Italy would resort to "self-help extraditions" the way the
U.S. did in the case of a Mexican national named Dr. Alvarez-Machain where
they claimed he helped murder a DEA agent in Mexico, so the U.S. ignored
the extradition treaty, and hired a bunch of guys to kidnap him from
Mexico and bring him back to the U.S. Trial court said the kidnap was
illegal because he could have been extradited according to the terms of
the treaty; the U.S. Supreme Court says it wasn't. Then the guy gets
found not guilty at trial and they have to send him back to Mexico anyway!

--
Paul Robinson "Above all else... We shall go on..."
"...And continue!"
"If the lessons of history teach us anything it is
that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us."

Alec

"Paul Robinson" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > drei wrote:
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > I have a friend who is the son of an Italian citizen and who was born
    > > in the U.S. and has never left the country. Recently, he received a
    > > letter from the Italian Consulate in his area concerning updating
    > > personal information for the purpose of establishing a registry of
    > > voters for Italian elections. Prior to that, he had never submitted
    > > any paperwork to the Italian Consulate and had never made any attempt
    > > to acknowledge Italian citizenship. He called the Italian Consulate,
    > > and was told that Italian law automatically causes the son of an
    > > Italian citizen to acquire Italian citizenship at birth. However, the
    > > person at the consulate stressed that there was a distinction between
    > > automatically acquiring Italian citizenship and "fully acknowledging"
    > > Italian citizenship through an application process (which is described
    > > at http://www.italyemb.org/Riconoscimento.htm).
    > >
    > > If my friend, who is an American citizen, continues to reside in the
    > > United States, will his formal acknowledgement of Italian citizenship
    > > (as opposed to ignoring the Consulate) affect what Italy is able to
    > > force him to do (in terms of taxes, military obligations, etc.)?
    > Probably not. Unlikely they could impose conscription on him as they
    > would have to get a U.S. court to order an American Citizen deported to
    > Italy in order to serve in the military. Want to guess the likelihood of
    > that happening?
    > About the only way they could really do anything to him is if he was
    > physically in Italy at some point, or in some third country willing to
    > extradite him.
There was a case a few years ago of a dual French-British national, a young
man of 18-19, who was detained by French officials at Folkestone channel
tunnel terminal (where the French have the right to examine passport) and
escorted to France to be arrested. His crime? Evading conscription. He was
only released after *a lot* of pressure from British government, on the
ground that he wasn't a resident of France.
Normally, as foreword to British passport makes clear, for dual nationals
one government cannot intervene in the action of the other while they are in
that country.
Just a thought....

Alec

Luca

Alec wrote:
    > "Paul Robinson" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>drei wrote:
    >>>Hi,
    >>>I have a friend who is the son of an Italian citizen and who was born
    >>>in the U.S. and has never left the country. Recently, he received a
    >>>letter from the Italian Consulate in his area concerning updating
    >>>personal information for the purpose of establishing a registry of
    >>>voters for Italian elections. Prior to that, he had never submitted
    >>>any paperwork to the Italian Consulate and had never made any attempt
    >>>to acknowledge Italian citizenship. He called the Italian Consulate,
    >>>and was told that Italian law automatically causes the son of an
    >>>Italian citizen to acquire Italian citizenship at birth. However, the
    >>>person at the consulate stressed that there was a distinction between
    >>>automatically acquiring Italian citizenship and "fully acknowledging"
    >>>Italian citizenship through an application process (which is described
    >>>at http://www.italyemb.org/Riconoscimento.htm).
    >>>If my friend, who is an American citizen, continues to reside in the
    >>>United States, will his formal acknowledgement of Italian citizenship
    >>>(as opposed to ignoring the Consulate) affect what Italy is able to
    >>>force him to do (in terms of taxes, military obligations, etc.)?
    >>Probably not. Unlikely they could impose conscription on him as they
    >>would have to get a U.S. court to order an American Citizen deported to
    >>Italy in order to serve in the military. Want to guess the likelihood of
    >>that happening?
    >>About the only way they could really do anything to him is if he was
    >>physically in Italy at some point, or in some third country willing to
    >>extradite him.
    >
    > There was a case a few years ago of a dual French-British national, a young
    > man of 18-19, who was detained by French officials at Folkestone channel
    > tunnel terminal (where the French have the right to examine passport) and
    > escorted to France to be arrested. His crime? Evading conscription. He was
    > only released after *a lot* of pressure from British government, on the
    > ground that he wasn't a resident of France.
    > Normally, as foreword to British passport makes clear, for dual nationals
    > one government cannot intervene in the action of the other while they are in
    > that country.
    > Just a thought....
    >
    > Alec
    >
    >

I do not know what the French do, and anyway it's pretty OT (nothin'
new, I am afraid, in this NG). Going back to Italy: historically, a
nation of emigrants, with citizenship granted on the base of jus
sanguini. Millions of people could claim it (currently 6 months waiting
list in Buenos Aires), the law states that if you haven't resided in
Italy up to a certain age (as I said before, 28 but please check) you
are exonerated from the draft.

There are cases in which this law is used to dodge the draft, and
tipically England is a place of choice in those cases (dodge and learn
English, not a bad deal, plus you can be on the dole and that also
helps). With millions of Italian-Americans in the States, you can rest
assured that the Consulate will be able to provide reliable information.

How hold is this guy anyway?


--
The light at the end of the tunnel
has been turned off to save overhead expenses.

Emilia

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > "richard" wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> could the powers that be demand he pay taxes to them as well?
    >
    > No. You pay taxes to the country on whose soil you earn your money.
    > Citizenship is irrelevant to taxes.

Umm... Except in the case of US citizens and perm. residents who are
required to pay taxes no matter where the money is earned or where their
assets are kept.

    >> they can try any claim
    >> they want, he doesn't have to do a damn thing. what are they gonna do
    >> about it? Arrest him?
    >
    > You fail to understand that what they're offering him is a privilege.

Here, here.


    > Regards
    >
    > *) ius sanguini vs. ius soli is not an either/or situation. Many
    > countries have a mix of both.
    >

Luca T.

Luca wrote:
    > I do not know what the French do, and anyway it's pretty OT (nothin'
    > new, I am afraid, in this NG). Going back to Italy: historically, a
    > nation of emigrants, with citizenship granted on the base of jus
    > sanguini. Millions of people could claim it (currently 6 months waiting
    > list in Buenos Aires), the law states that if you haven't resided in
    > Italy up to a certain age (as I said before, 28 but please check) you
    > are exonerated from the draft.

Military service should be removed in a couple of years in italy so he
may want to wait and see before doing anything.

Bye,
Luca

Stephen C. Gallagher

(snip)

    > > could the powers that be demand he pay taxes to them as well?
    > No. You pay taxes to the country on whose soil you earn your money.
    > Citizenship is irrelevant to taxes.

For most countries, that's true. Tax liability is normally determined
by residence, domicile, and/or the country where the income is
earned. BUT (and it's a big BUT), not in the case of the
United States.

The tax laws of the United States are unique in that they consider
the worldwide income of every US citizen to be subject to US taxes
even if that person does not live in the US and even if the income
was not earned in the US. So, for example, a US citizen who lives
and works in Germany, must file a US tax return where he declares
his worldwide income to the US Internal Revenue Service. This is,
of course, in addition to paying German taxes on that income.

There are exclusions and credits that can be taken to eliminate
double taxation, and most US citizens who live abroad do not
pay any US tax, but they do have to file a US tax return each year,
and it's very possible that in some cases they do end up paying
US tax.

It's my understanding that the Philippines also has a similar
tax policy.

Stephen Gallagher

Tiny Human Ferret

drei wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have a friend who is the son of an Italian citizen and who was born
    > in the U.S. and has never left the country. Recently, he received a
    > letter from the Italian Consulate in his area concerning updating
    > personal information for the purpose of establishing a registry of
    > voters for Italian elections. Prior to that, he had never submitted
    > any paperwork to the Italian Consulate and had never made any attempt
    > to acknowledge Italian citizenship. He called the Italian Consulate,
    > and was told that Italian law automatically causes the son of an
    > Italian citizen to acquire Italian citizenship at birth. However, the
    > person at the consulate stressed that there was a distinction between
    > automatically acquiring Italian citizenship and "fully acknowledging"
    > Italian citizenship through an application process (which is described
    > at http://www.italyemb.org/Riconoscimento.htm).
    >
    > If my friend, who is an American citizen, continues to reside in the
    > United States, will his formal acknowledgement of Italian citizenship
    > (as opposed to ignoring the Consulate) affect what Italy is able to
    > force him to do (in terms of taxes, military obligations, etc.)?
    >
    > In general, for the case of a person who is both a U.S. citizen and a
    > citizen of a foreign state, how can the foreign state enforce its laws
    > on a person while he or she resides in the U.S.?


If born on US soil, this person is a citizen of the USA, and of the State in
which they reside.

If they travel to Italy, and make no oath or declarations, nor serve in the
military of Italy, they remain a US citizen. By applying to Italy for
citizenship, they might be thought under US law to be relinquishing their US
citizenship, though so far as I know this hasn't much been enforced. They
can definitely lose their US citizenship if they renounce it to a US
consular official while abroad, having made an oath or declaration adopting
citizenship in another country.


--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle

Richard

in
misc.legal,rec.travel.europe,misc.immigration.usa, alt.politics.immigration
on Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:30:04 +0100 with
Wolfgang Schwanke had the nerve to make the following comments:

WS> "richard" wrote in
WS> news:[email protected]:

>> Interesting indeed. I have a cousin who was born in Denmark of all
>> places, yet within two years was in the USA where both his parents
>> were born and raised.
>> So not only is he a USA citizen, but a citizen by birth of Denmark?

WS> That depends on the regulations of Danish citizenship law.
WS> If it contains a ius soli *) type regulation (which I don't know) then
WS> he might be.

>> could the powers that be demand he pay taxes to them as well?

WS> No. You pay taxes to the country on whose soil you earn your money.
WS> Citizenship is irrelevant to taxes.

>> Perhaps enlist him into the military? if they have one that is.

WS> Denmark has a military, and is in NATO. He probably only has to serve
WS> military if he's a citizen AND lives on Danish soil at the time he
WS> turns 18. Most countries with military service have regulations to that
WS> effect anyway.

>> In your case though, I'd tell the Italian government to shove it up
>> their butt. the child was not born in Italy, and legally, has no
>> obligations with them in any way shape or form.

WS> If Italian citizen ship law contains a ius sanguini *) type regulation
WS> (which according to the OP seems to be the case), then it doesn't
WS> matter where he was born.

>> they can try any claim
>> they want, he doesn't have to do a damn thing. what are they gonna do
>> about it? Arrest him?

WS> You fail to understand that what they're offering him is a privilege.

You fail to understand that the person was born in the US, while his parents
were Italian citizens.
there is no dual citizenship issue with the child. period.
the Italian government can make any claims they want, the child is not a
citizen of Italy.
The Italian government has no legal jurisdiction in the USA.



WS> Regards

WS> *) ius sanguini vs. ius soli is not an either/or situation. Many
WS> countries have a mix of both.

WS> --
WS> Aprosdoketon, das (gr.): unerwartet gebrauchtes Fremdwort.