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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   US Immigration, Citizenship and Visas (https://britishexpats.com/forum/us-immigration-citizenship-visas-34/)
-   -   Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA (https://britishexpats.com/forum/us-immigration-citizenship-visas-34/criminal-record-attempting-visit-work-live-usa-917435/)

Augustus Sep 18th 2018 3:21 pm
Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Hi allI wondered if anyone could advise me what the chances are of me visiting, working, living in the US are with the following convictions.

1. In 2002, I was convicted of trading with intent to defraud creditor and sentenced to 12 months however this was overturned on appeal and a community rehabilitation order was imposed, disqualified for being a company director for 5 years.

2. In 2006 I was convicted of burglary and damaging property and sentenced to 4 months imprisonment, suspended for 24 months and unpaid work of 100 hours and to pay costs. 3. In 2007, there was a technical breach of the suspended sentence, and ordered to serve another 4 weeks of the unpaid work.

4. In 2009 I was convicted of obtaining services by deception and obtaining property by deception and was sentenced to 32 weeks imprisonment. The deception was related to signing a contract under the name of another company, due to a breach of a previous suspended sentence, I was sentenced to a consecutive 20 weeks imprisonment, totalling 52 weeks imprisonment.

5. In 2010, I was convicted of theft from a shop and was sentenced to a conditional discharge for 12 months and to pay £200.

6. In 2017, I was convicted of theft from a shop and was sentenced to community service of 80 hours community service and £1100 in costs. Now there are enormous mitigation behind all of these offences, but I wanted to call a spade a spade and not hide the details, I have mitigation for these offence, but an offence is an offence and although I have moved on with my life, educated myself, and have a responsible job, it is a sustained pattern of offending which reflects badly.It is also of no help that I have visited the USA on two occasions in the midst of this period, and I have not declared my convictions.I would be grateful for anyone kindly offering advice, what in the light of these offences and failure to declare would I be able to:a) Visit the USA?b) Work in the USA?c) Live in the USA?
Many thanks

chawkins99 Sep 18th 2018 3:42 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Chances of:
a) visit the USA (Legally) - Zero
b) Work in the USA - Zero
c) Live in the USA - Zero

Nope, nada, no

materialcontroller Sep 18th 2018 4:10 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
To be blunt - with that pattern of offending, you have no chance of being able to legally enter the USA for any purpose in the foreseeable future.

Muna_93 Sep 18th 2018 4:11 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Agree with chawkins99. This shows a repeated pattern of offending (the last offence being *very* recent), coupled with multiple previous deceptions to DHS - your chances are next to zero.

Rete Sep 18th 2018 4:17 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Another in agreement with the other posters. Your track record of criminal offenses and continued disregard for the law and the sentences handed down, make you ineligible to use the VWP and more obtaining a formal tourist B visa even with a waiver is nil.

One, possibly two, offenses might be forgivable by Homeland Security and allow you to obtain a waiver as long as there have been many years between the last offense and the time of the application for a waiver. You, however, are a habitual criminal as shown by your continued criminal activities.

Also the deliberate misuse of the VWP is a mark against you. I don't believe not having committed a crime in the last year shows that you have rehabilitated yourself. As for mitigating circumstances, since the courts didn't find them justifiable, there is no way that Homeland Security will.

Guindalf Sep 18th 2018 4:34 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
In case it's not clear, you have more chance of being the first man on Pluto as you have of entering the US legally for ANY reason!

You're not related to Norman Stanley Fletcher, are you? ;)

materialcontroller Sep 18th 2018 4:35 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by Rete (Post 12564704)
I don't believe not having committed a crime in the last year shows that you have rehabilitated yourself. As for mitigating circumstances, since the courts didn't find them justifiable, there is no way that Homeland Security will.
This is a very important point. There is no way that anyone is going to believe someone has "moved on with their life" when the most recent offence is 12 months ago.

The OP might have stood a small chance of showing rehabilitation if that last crime hadn't taken place, but even then it would have been difficult to persuade a conoff when all of the offences are similar CIMT's.

As things stand, the OP is very definitely SOL as far as visiting the USA is concerned.

Rete Sep 18th 2018 4:58 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
People can come down on me all they wish, but I, for one, am glad that someone of this caliber doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of entering the US to live and work, let alone visit. We have enough of our homegrown criminals without need to import them.

materialcontroller Sep 18th 2018 5:04 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by Rete (Post 12564722)
People can come down on me all they wish, but I, for one, am glad that someone of this caliber doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of entering the US to live and work, let alone visit. We have enough of our homegrown criminals without need to import them.
Well you say that, but many of these people still manage to enter the US by lying on ESTA applications etc.

In fact the OP has admitted to having done just that more than once in the past.

Muna_93 Sep 18th 2018 5:55 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by materialcontroller (Post 12564727)
Well you say that, but many of these people still manage to enter the US by lying on ESTA applications etc.

In fact the OP has admitted to having done just that more than once in the past.
What's more annoying is that this risks potentially sabotaging the ease of travel/movement for everyone else if DHS decide the system has too many holes.

Ridiculous all round.

Rete Sep 18th 2018 7:01 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by materialcontroller (Post 12564727)
Well you say that, but many of these people still manage to enter the US by lying on ESTA applications etc.

In fact the OP has admitted to having done just that more than once in the past.
Understood but unless he or they wished to remain in the US illegally, they would never get a proper visa to the US. Count those who are here illegally with criminal records as part of our criminal population.

scrubbedexpat099 Sep 18th 2018 11:36 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
I am sure there are many holidaying in Disney who have not been completely truthful on their ESTA.

tom169 Sep 19th 2018 10:54 am
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Honestly, try applying for a visa in 20-30 years, assuming no more criminality between now and then.

PupilBarrister Sep 19th 2018 11:13 am
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
From an immigration stand point, you have to remember that the people that work in immigration are US citizens, who are aware more than anyone that their country imprisons more people for more crime than anywhere else in the world, their jails are full of the worst type of offenders, not that you are, but it gives the mindset and the mentality of just saying "NO" to anyone with other than what would appear on an ACPO file "NO TRACE", even people who apply for citzenship or visas, when it comes back "NO LIVE TRACE" (meaning there was something in the past but not for disclosure" get hauled into intense immigration interviews.

The one thing I would comment, is that you probably would be able to visit the US, according to the latest ESTA questions and comparing them with your declared convictions and actions.
  1. Do you have a physical or mental disorder; or are you a drug abuser or addict; or do you currently have any of the following diseases (communicable diseases are specified pursuant to section 361(b) of the Public Health Service Act): Cholera, Diphtheria, Tuberculosis infectious, Plague, Smallpox, Yellow Fever, Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers, including Ebola, Lassa, Marburg, Crimean-Congo, Severe acute respiratory illnesses capable of transmission to other persons and likely to cause mortality.
  2. Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?
  3. Have you ever violated any law related to possessing, using, or distributing illegal drugs?
  4. Do you seek to engage in or have you ever engaged in terrorist activities, espionage, sabotage, or genocide?
  5. Have you ever committed fraud or misrepresented yourself or others to obtain, or assist others to obtain, a visa or entry into the United States?
  6. Are you currently seeking employment in the United States or were you previously employed in the United States without prior permission from the U.S. government?
  7. Have you ever been denied a U.S. visa you applied for with your current or previous passport, or have you ever been refused admission to the United States or withdrawn your application for admission at a U.S. port of entry?
  8. Have you ever stayed in the United States longer than the admission period granted to you by the U.S. government?
  9. Have you traveled to, or been present in Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia or Yemen on or after March 1, 2011?
If the criminal damage you spoke of were minor, then question 2 you could answer no to, and by implication if you were unaware or as the vast majority of clients in immigration cases state, they did not understand what CIMT stood for, and therefore you have not misrepresented yourself. You could technically clear all the hurdles of this question.

In relation to the other question you ask of living/working in the US, I have to follow the line of thought being aerated on this subject and say the chances are very slim, HOWEVER, it is refreshing to see you giving more details of the criminal convictions than covering it with mitigation.

It all depends on what you do, I have seen clients who have major offences, but not drug or violent related and as they are doctors, teachers or lawyers they get enough people to cite them references, twist the facts of the offence in their favour and promise to do everything and anything in the community they are planning to live in. One man I know, had planned to build a new school in the area!!!!! that got him in.

In essence, if there is a benefit to the USA and you know who to call to pull the strings so it goes across the right persons desk, if you are prepared to put the effort in, address your offending and speak of a new life, new world, new path, it tends to be good news.

However sadly, if your an average worker, plodding off to that god forsaken cube of a building in vauxhall and really have nothing to say other than sorry and you want a better life, then I am afraid its almost a certain no, which will be recorded and attempting to enter under the radar even with an ESTA will be impossible.

In short, there is always hope, but unless you want to spend months, even years working on trying to get in, you need to prepare yourself for the nearest you will get to Mickey Mouse and friends will be Disneyland Paris.

MidAtlantic Sep 19th 2018 11:38 am
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by PupilBarrister (Post 12565049)

The one thing I would comment, is that you probably would be able to visit the US, according to the latest ESTA questions and comparing them with your declared convictions and actions

2. Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?

If the criminal damage you spoke of were minor, then question 2 you could answer no to, and by implication if you were unaware or as the vast majority of clients in immigration cases state, they did not understand what CIMT stood for, and therefore you have not misrepresented yourself. You could technically clear all the hurdles of this question.
Have you ever been arrested OR... the answer is clearly YES

materialcontroller Sep 19th 2018 11:42 am
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by PupilBarrister (Post 12565049)
From an immigration stand point, you have to remember that the people that work in immigration are US citizens, who are aware more than anyone that their country imprisons more people for more crime than anywhere else in the world, their jails are full of the worst type of offenders, not that you are, but it gives the mindset and the mentality of just saying "NO" to anyone with other than what would appear on an ACPO file "NO TRACE", even people who apply for citzenship or visas, when it comes back "NO LIVE TRACE" (meaning there was something in the past but not for disclosure" get hauled into intense immigration interviews.

The one thing I would comment, is that you probably would be able to visit the US, according to the latest ESTA questions and comparing them with your declared convictions and actions.
  1. Do you have a physical or mental disorder; or are you a drug abuser or addict; or do you currently have any of the following diseases (communicable diseases are specified pursuant to section 361(b) of the Public Health Service Act): Cholera, Diphtheria, Tuberculosis infectious, Plague, Smallpox, Yellow Fever, Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers, including Ebola, Lassa, Marburg, Crimean-Congo, Severe acute respiratory illnesses capable of transmission to other persons and likely to cause mortality.
  2. Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?
  3. Have you ever violated any law related to possessing, using, or distributing illegal drugs?
  4. Do you seek to engage in or have you ever engaged in terrorist activities, espionage, sabotage, or genocide?
  5. Have you ever committed fraud or misrepresented yourself or others to obtain, or assist others to obtain, a visa or entry into the United States?
  6. Are you currently seeking employment in the United States or were you previously employed in the United States without prior permission from the U.S. government?
  7. Have you ever been denied a U.S. visa you applied for with your current or previous passport, or have you ever been refused admission to the United States or withdrawn your application for admission at a U.S. port of entry?
  8. Have you ever stayed in the United States longer than the admission period granted to you by the U.S. government?
  9. Have you traveled to, or been present in Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia or Yemen on or after March 1, 2011?
If the criminal damage you spoke of were minor, then question 2 you could answer no to, and by implication if you were unaware or as the vast majority of clients in immigration cases state, they did not understand what CIMT stood for, and therefore you have not misrepresented yourself. You could technically clear all the hurdles of this question.

In relation to the other question you ask of living/working in the US, I have to follow the line of thought being aerated on this subject and say the chances are very slim, HOWEVER, it is refreshing to see you giving more details of the criminal convictions than covering it with mitigation.

It all depends on what you do, I have seen clients who have major offences, but not drug or violent related and as they are doctors, teachers or lawyers they get enough people to cite them references, twist the facts of the offence in their favour and promise to do everything and anything in the community they are planning to live in. One man I know, had planned to build a new school in the area!!!!! that got him in.

In essence, if there is a benefit to the USA and you know who to call to pull the strings so it goes across the right persons desk, if you are prepared to put the effort in, address your offending and speak of a new life, new world, new path, it tends to be good news.

However sadly, if your an average worker, plodding off to that god forsaken cube of a building in vauxhall and really have nothing to say other than sorry and you want a better life, then I am afraid its almost a certain no, which will be recorded and attempting to enter under the radar even with an ESTA will be impossible.

In short, there is always hope, but unless you want to spend months, even years working on trying to get in, you need to prepare yourself for the nearest you will get to Mickey Mouse and friends will be Disneyland Paris.
The part of your post that I have highlighted in bold is very much incorrect. There is simply no way that anyone with the OP's type of offences and pattern of behaviour could "clear all the hurdles of this question" and answer NO to it.

civilservant Sep 19th 2018 12:01 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by PupilBarrister (Post 12565049)
From an immigration stand point, you have to remember that the people that work in immigration are US citizens, who are aware more than anyone that their country imprisons more people for more crime than anywhere else in the world, their jails are full of the worst t.....
First post, it's a book, and it's wrong. The question is 'Have you EVER been arrested....'

Answering yes will get you an ESTA denial. He is not eligible.

PupilBarrister Sep 19th 2018 12:02 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Like pretty much all immigration law, the devil is in the detail, it is a double negative sentence which can can have wildly different outcomes depending on where you place the emphasis.

Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?

With no punctuation, line break or question mark after arrested it would be wholly fair to assume that a layman could (not should) infer that the sentence is a double negative relating to the end subject offences in the same sentence.

If the ESTA wanted to know if you have been arrested for anything, then it should rely on its previous questions in the old style that related the question of moral turpitude in the actual question.

For example the question, have you ever been walking or running for a bus that reached its destination?

The question is not asking if you have ever been walking, without a comma, new sentence or anything else to indicate it is a standalone question, the assumption that you should isolate words, when the isolation can be achieved by english grammer is an argument that does not stand up.

civilservant Sep 19th 2018 12:42 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Both theft and criminal damage will come under the scope of that question - both of which the OP has been tried and convicted of.

It's no wonder that attorneys are roundly disliked on this board. Although at least you qualify your remarks, unlike another well known member.

scrubbedexpat099 Sep 19th 2018 1:07 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by PupilBarrister (Post 12565049)
From an immigration stand point, you have to remember that the people that work in immigration are US citizens
Certainly in Consulates most are locals.

Otherwise ditto everybody else.

shiversaint Sep 19th 2018 2:54 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Despite not agreeing that OP qualifies for an ESTA, and I also do not agree that there is hope for entering the US lawfully any time soon, I do agree with PupilBarrister that this: Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?

...is not a sentence that makes a distinction between being arrested at all and being convicted for CIMT. It's a question asking if you've ever been arrested for a suspected CIMT or had a conviction for a CIMT. It would be pretty bloody difficult to get a conviction for something else without actually being arrested in the first place, wouldn't it?! If it was all arrests, the second part of the sentence is redundant as the first part captures all possible outcomes, CIMT or not.

Outside of that, OP certainly has a CIMT on his record for his very first offence, which involves fraud. Pretty clear cut.

fbf2006 Sep 19th 2018 3:36 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by shiversaint (Post 12565187)
Despite not agreeing that OP qualifies for an ESTA, and I also do not agree that there is hope for entering the US lawfully any time soon, I do agree with PupilBarrister that this: Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?

...is not a sentence that makes a distinction between being arrested at all and being convicted for CIMT. It's a question asking if you've ever been arrested for a suspected CIMT or had a conviction for a CIMT. It would be pretty bloody difficult to get a conviction for something else without actually being arrested in the first place, wouldn't it?! If it was all arrests, the second part of the sentence is redundant as the first part captures all possible outcomes, CIMT or not.

Outside of that, OP certainly has a CIMT on his record for his very first offence, which involves fraud. Pretty clear cut.
I agree. That's how I read it as well. Isn't the question asking if you've been arrested for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority OR convicted of a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority

I also agree that it seems he has indeed been arrested and convicted of such crimes.

Twinkle0927 Sep 20th 2018 12:59 am
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by PupilBarrister (Post 12565049)
From an immigration stand point, you have to remember that the people that work in immigration are US citizens, who are aware more than anyone that their country imprisons more people for more crime than anywhere else in the world, their jails are full of the worst type of offenders, not that you are, but it gives the mindset and the mentality of just saying "NO" to anyone with other than what would appear on an ACPO file "NO TRACE", even people who apply for citzenship or visas, when it comes back "NO LIVE TRACE" (meaning there was something in the past but not for disclosure" get hauled into intense immigration interviews.

The one thing I would comment, is that you probably would be able to visit the US, according to the latest ESTA questions and comparing them with your declared convictions and actions.
  1. Do you have a physical or mental disorder; or are you a drug abuser or addict; or do you currently have any of the following diseases (communicable diseases are specified pursuant to section 361(b) of the Public Health Service Act): Cholera, Diphtheria, Tuberculosis infectious, Plague, Smallpox, Yellow Fever, Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers, including Ebola, Lassa, Marburg, Crimean-Congo, Severe acute respiratory illnesses capable of transmission to other persons and likely to cause mortality.
  2. Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?
  3. Have you ever violated any law related to possessing, using, or distributing illegal drugs?
  4. Do you seek to engage in or have you ever engaged in terrorist activities, espionage, sabotage, or genocide?
  5. Have you ever committed fraud or misrepresented yourself or others to obtain, or assist others to obtain, a visa or entry into the United States?
  6. Are you currently seeking employment in the United States or were you previously employed in the United States without prior permission from the U.S. government?
  7. Have you ever been denied a U.S. visa you applied for with your current or previous passport, or have you ever been refused admission to the United States or withdrawn your application for admission at a U.S. port of entry?
  8. Have you ever stayed in the United States longer than the admission period granted to you by the U.S. government?
  9. Have you traveled to, or been present in Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia or Yemen on or after March 1, 2011?
If the criminal damage you spoke of were minor, then question 2 you could answer no to, and by implication if you were unaware or as the vast majority of clients in immigration cases state, they did not understand what CIMT stood for, and therefore you have not misrepresented yourself. You could technically clear all the hurdles of this question.

In relation to the other question you ask of living/working in the US, I have to follow the line of thought being aerated on this subject and say the chances are very slim, HOWEVER, it is refreshing to see you giving more details of the criminal convictions than covering it with mitigation.

It all depends on what you do, I have seen clients who have major offences, but not drug or violent related and as they are doctors, teachers or lawyers they get enough people to cite them references, twist the facts of the offence in their favour and promise to do everything and anything in the community they are planning to live in. One man I know, had planned to build a new school in the area!!!!! that got him in.

In essence, if there is a benefit to the USA and you know who to call to pull the strings so it goes across the right persons desk, if you are prepared to put the effort in, address your offending and speak of a new life, new world, new path, it tends to be good news.

However sadly, if your an average worker, plodding off to that god forsaken cube of a building in vauxhall and really have nothing to say other than sorry and you want a better life, then I am afraid its almost a certain no, which will be recorded and attempting to enter under the radar even with an ESTA will be impossible.

In short, there is always hope, but unless you want to spend months, even years working on trying to get in, you need to prepare yourself for the nearest you will get to Mickey Mouse and friends will be Disneyland Paris.
point 5 is what does it for me - didn’t declare his convictions on previous visits.


tom169 Sep 20th 2018 11:05 am
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Unless the attorney has a track record of challenging interpretation of law, I wouldn't take anything outside the status quo without case law backing it up.

shiversaint Sep 20th 2018 10:42 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by tom169 (Post 12565546)
Unless the attorney has a track record of challenging interpretation of law, I wouldn't take anything outside the status quo without case law backing it up.
Status quo being what? That all arrests should be declared?

tom169 Sep 21st 2018 1:26 am
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by shiversaint (Post 12565892)
Status quo being what? That all arrests should be declared?
Of course :unsure:

Rete Sep 21st 2018 1:50 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
I agree with, tom169. Even a simple shoplifting conviction can be viewed as a CMIT and is a deportable offense.

scrubbedexpat099 Sep 21st 2018 2:40 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Shoplifting is a type of theft.

Rete Sep 21st 2018 3:47 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Really? I'm sure that the world doesn't think this at all? Who knew!

shiversaint Sep 21st 2018 4:30 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by tom169 (Post 12565919)
Of course :unsure:
So the status quo defies established grammatical rules of the english language, and the first half would make the second half entirely redundant? Remarkable.

Rete Sep 21st 2018 4:42 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Not really. The use of the word or can be seen as a comma rather than referring to the remainder of the sentence "or convicted for a crime that results in serious damage to property. Please remember which country wrote this sentence and their use of the English language. As an American, I read the below as: Have you ever been arrested, convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property or serious harm to another person or government authority. Just as more and more people are writing cannot as two words when it is really one word and has been since I was a child 60 years ago. Also people use the word "or" in place of commas and now they use a comma before the last or in the sentence. The rules of grammar have long since been discard by all and sundry in the US.

We all are familiar with the fact that someone who has been arrested for possession of drugs is will have problems with emigrating and will often require a waiver of inadmissibility and/or will be out and out refused with no hope of ever entering the US as a visitor or as an immigrant. That is not a crime that is included in that sentence. It seems like some people are choosing to rely on your interpretation, which is also theirs, and IMHO, I feel that interpretation is incorrect.

Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?

materialcontroller Sep 21st 2018 7:40 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
The question doesn't ask about all arrests. It specifically asks about arrests or convictions for CIMT. Those are the only ones that matter. The US simply isn't interested in people who've been arrested for stuff that doesn't have an immoral dimension to it.

tom169 Sep 21st 2018 7:45 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by shiversaint (Post 12566185)
So the status quo defies established grammatical rules of the english language, and the first half would make the second half entirely redundant? Remarkable.
Good luck with challenging this in courts, buddy. :zzz:

BenK91 Sep 22nd 2018 11:36 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by shiversaint (Post 12566185)
So the status quo defies established grammatical rules of the english language, and the first half would make the second half entirely redundant? Remarkable.
What on earth have you been smoking?

I seriously hope anyone viewing this thread and looking for advice, doesn’t follow yours.

Twinkle0927 Sep 23rd 2018 12:20 am
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by BenK91 (Post 12566614)


What on earth have you been smoking?

I seriously hope anyone viewing this thread and looking for advice, doesn’t follow yours.

Actually, his point is correct. If we are to view the sentence as two separate questions (have you ever been arrested? Have you ever been convicted...?) then the second question is redundant as anyone convicted of a crime would have been arrested beforehand. Unless the individual had the misfortune to be convicted in a country so corrupt that people are convicted of serious crimes without first being placed under arrest. So “have you ever been arrested?” would suffice.

shiversaint Sep 23rd 2018 8:21 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by Twinkle0927 (Post 12566633)



Actually, his point is correct. If we are to view the sentence as two separate questions (have you ever been arrested? Have you ever been convicted...?) then the second question is redundant as anyone convicted of a crime would have been arrested beforehand. Unless the individual had the misfortune to be convicted in a country so corrupt that people are convicted of serious crimes without first being placed under arrest. So “have you ever been arrested?” would suffice.
This is precisely what I'm trying to say.

I accept that an OR can be colloquially used to the suggested effect by Rete, but if that was the case, why wouldn't you just ask if you've ever been arrested and that's it? It's an unnecessary administrative burden for the US to interpret this sentence as anything other than what it plainly says.

shiversaint Sep 23rd 2018 8:29 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by tom169 (Post 12566264)
Good luck with challenging this in courts, buddy. :zzz:
I successfully argued this during a misrepresentation accusation from with the consulate. I visited the US on the VWP with a drug related caution, which is not a CIMT as we know. I said it was not a misrep issue as I'd been honest when interpreting the question, which they agreed with. Twice, for that matter.

It wouldn't ever get to court, because it isn't an issue.

And just in any anticipation of any queries on how I got away with this, my caution was before the 2008 court decision that deems cautions equivalent to convictions.

Originally Posted by BenK91 (Post 12566614)


What on earth have you been smoking?

I seriously hope anyone viewing this thread and looking for advice, doesn’t follow yours.
By all means be overly cautious. Doing so is a waste of time, but it's upto you or whoever decides to agree with you. I'm not advising anyone to do anything one way or another, I'm just stating the facts around how a sentence should be read if it is adhering to the conventions of the english language.

Rete Sep 23rd 2018 8:49 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by Twinkle0927 (Post 12566633)



Actually, his point is correct. If we are to view the sentence as two separate questions (have you ever been arrested? Have you ever been convicted...?) then the second question is redundant as anyone convicted of a crime would have been arrested beforehand. Unless the individual had the misfortune to be convicted in a country so corrupt that people are convicted of serious crimes without first being placed under arrest. So “have you ever been arrested?” would suffice.
How does it make it redundant. They are two separate questions. One can be arrested and not convicted but one cannot be convicted without being arrested. The sentence uses the word "or" not the word "and" which is how I interpret your and shiver's viewpoint. Being that it is an or rather than an and, I do not see it the way either of you do.

materialcontroller Sep 23rd 2018 9:41 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by Rete (Post 12566954)
How does it make it redundant. They are two separate questions. One can be arrested and not convicted but one cannot be convicted without being arrested. The sentence uses the word "or" not the word "and" which is how I interpret your and shiver's viewpoint. Being that it is an or rather than an and, I do not see it the way either of you do.
This forum has long considered the meaning of this question to be:

Have you ever been arrested for a CIMT?
or
Have you ever been convicted of a CIMT?

It's not "Have you ever been arrested for any offence?"

tht Sep 23rd 2018 11:43 pm
Re: Criminal Record attempting to visit/work/live in USA
 
Originally Posted by Rete (Post 12566954)
How does it make it redundant. They are two separate questions. One can be arrested and not convicted but one cannot be convicted without being arrested. The sentence uses the word "or" not the word "and" which is how I interpret your and shiver's viewpoint. Being that it is an or rather than an and, I do not see it the way either of you do.
I am not sure that is even true, in some countries people can be tried in absentia, so they may never be arrested, but could be convicted, although I believe only a handful of counties allow that, I think Italy may be one, and I recall it more in relation to war crimes where the accused can’t be found.


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