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Coming to think of it: child support.

Coming to think of it: child support.

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Old Dec 13th 2002, 5:58 am
  #1  
Steggy
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Default Coming to think of it: child support.

I asked this before long time ago, I don't think I got an
answer so why not try again)

Child support, small explanation. I am divorced from my ex
in Holland. I have two kids over there. Since my divorce I
pay the support that is mandatory for the kids. After my
move to and marriage in the US I continued to do so.

In Holland you can deduct that kind of child support from
your income, so that lowers your taxes. My guess is it is
the same in the US. But also when the kids live abroad? I am
a Dutch citizen, Conditional Permanent US Resident.
--
steg
 
Old Dec 13th 2002, 1:37 pm
  #2  
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

Originally posted by Steggy
I asked this before long time ago, I don't think I got an
answer so why not try again)

Child support, small explanation. I am divorced from my ex
in Holland. I have two kids over there. Since my divorce I
pay the support that is mandatory for the kids. After my
move to and marriage in the US I continued to do so.

In Holland you can deduct that kind of child support from
your income, so that lowers your taxes. My guess is it is
the same in the US. But also when the kids live abroad? I am
a Dutch citizen, Conditional Permanent US Resident.
--
steg

I can't really help, I pay child support in the UK, but I pay it from a UK bank account
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Old Dec 13th 2002, 6:07 pm
  #3  
Steggy
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

rogerpenycate wrote:
    >
    > Originally posted by Steggy
    > > I asked this before long time ago, I don't think I got an
    > > answer so why not try again)
    > >
    > > Child support, small explanation. I am divorced from my ex
    > > in Holland. I have two kids over there. Since my divorce I
    > > pay the support that is mandatory for the kids. After my
    > > move to and marriage in the US I continued to do so.
    > >
    > > In Holland you can deduct that kind of child support from
    > > your income, so that lowers your taxes. My guess is it is
    > > the same in the US. But also when the kids live abroad? I am
    > > a Dutch citizen, Conditional Permanent US Resident.
    > > --
    > > steg
    >
    > I can't really help, I pay child support in the UK, but I pay it from a
    > UK bank account
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

But can you deduct it from your taxes? Doesn't matter how
you pay it.
--
steg
 
Old Dec 13th 2002, 7:42 pm
  #4  
Darrnaramgaram
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

child support is a taxable but non taxable for the reciever,you can pay it from
your pay check but its a taxable
 
Old Dec 13th 2002, 10:50 pm
  #5  
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

Originally posted by Steggy
In Holland you can deduct that kind of child support from
your income, so that lowers your taxes. My guess is it is
the same in the US. But also when the kids live abroad? I am
a Dutch citizen, Conditional Permanent US Resident.
--
steg
OT Reply to Steg:
Hi Steg,
This is interesting, what you say they do in Holland. Please note that I'm not a tax attorney (I have someone else prepare my tax returns each year), nor do I practice family law in Cal. (or any other state for that matter), and I don't know anything about child support.

But I am curious about what they do in Holland. If you did not divorce your spouse and instead continued to live with your spouse and support your children, would those expenses (in supporting your kids) be deductible from your taxable income? If not, doesn’t it seem like an incentive to divorce one's spouse (to be able to claim the deduction)? I guess I don't see why child support should be a deduction when divorced, and not a deduction when married (assuming that is the way it works in Holland).

Again, I have no idea as to the answer to your question (about deducting child support from U.S. taxes... and I'll bet some of the news group participants who do have children will have some feedback for you). I'm not a Father so I've never looked into that interesting issue before, but as a non-parent I have experienced differences in treatment between parents and non-parents.

A long time ago, before I became an attorney (and started working for myself), I held various jobs. And most of the time, the employees who had children got the best days off (holidays) while the single employees or married employees without children were expected to work those holidays. It never seemed fair to me that people who choose "not" to have children should be discriminated or treated differently than those who did decide to have kids when it comes to things like time off for holidays, employee benefits, flexible schedules, etc. But I suppose if I did have kids, I'd want special treatment too (at the expense of those who did not have children).

But personally I wouldn't like it if someone was able to claim a deduction simply because they decided to have kids (talking about a substantial deduction that would equal the total of child support given vs small standard deduction), and they couldn't keep their marriage together. Why should people who don't have kids have to subsidize those who do (subsidized in the form of paying taxes on a higher percentage of their total net income... or perhaps a better way of saying it is not having a similar opportunity for a tax deduction)?

Fortunately for the parents of the U.S., its not my decision to make :-) and we often see situations in our society where Congress decides certain things are worth doing, "just because it seems like the right thing to do�.

I'll bet I'm going to get flamed for expressing this opinion :-).

Last edited by Matthew Udall; Dec 14th 2002 at 12:21 am.
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Old Dec 14th 2002, 12:07 am
  #6  
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as a Us Citizen if I had children, I could take a child deduction for each child that has a SSN . I think it is something like $500 per child. Why wouldn't I be able to do the same if I were paying child support to my spouses ex wife? The only issue seems to be that they do not have SSN. It is a fact that in the US every parent can take a deduction, "because they decided to have children". I Would really like to hear from a tax accountant out there who might specialize in immigration related tax returns. My personal accountant tells me no social security number for the dependants, no deduction. Really doesnt seem fair, but thats life.
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Old Dec 14th 2002, 1:21 am
  #7  
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

In article , Matthew Udall
writes
    >Originally posted by Steggy
    >> In Holland you can deduct that kind of child support from
    >> your income, so that lowers your taxes. My guess is it is
    >> the same in the US. But also when the kids live abroad? I am
    >> a Dutch citizen, Conditional Permanent US Resident.
    >> --
    >> steg
    >OT Reply to Steg:
    >Hi Steg,
    >This is interesting, what you say they do in Holland. Please note that
    >I'm not a tax attorney (I have someone else prepare my tax returns each
    >year), nor do I practice family law in Cal. (or any other state for that
    >matter), and I don't know anything about child support.
    >But I am curious about what they do in Holland. If you did not divorce
    >your spouse and instead continued to live with your spouse and support
    >your children, would those expenses (in supporting your kids) be
    >deductible from your taxable income? If not, doesn’t it seem like an
    >incentive to divorce one's spouse (to be able to claim the deduction)?
    >I guess I don't see why child support should be a deduction when
    >divorced, and not a deduction when married (assuming that is the way it
    >works in Holland).

Just to give you yet another variation regarding child support, this
time from a UK perspective. Prior to around 1988 the UK Inland Revenue
would allow relief to the support payer, but only if the support
payments were made by court order, not if the payments were voluntary.

They would then seek to tax the recipient on those payments, arguing
that they formed part of the income of the recipient. This caused
problems for the recipient parent who naturally maintained that such
receipts were not theirs, but merely passed through them as a conduit to
the child/children. One way around this was to make the payments direct
to each child. As each UK resident regardless of age is/was entitled to
a certain income free of tax each tax year this would then eliminate or
reduce tax on such child support receipts.

In recent years the system changed to no relief being given to the payer
of child support, offset by not including such support in the income of
the recipient. However, just when we thought things were becoming simple
enough to understand, in the last two tax years and in the one coming up
next they have introduced/amended such things as working families tax
credit, children's tax credit and child tax credit. Its a minefield!


--
squire
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Old Dec 14th 2002, 2:55 am
  #8  
Richard III
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

In the US, maintenance (alimony) is deductable but child support is
not - also your divorce decree will, in most cases, specify who gets
the deduction for the child(ren) - ask me how I know ;^) -

Richard III

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:58:31 -0700, steggy wrote:

    >I asked this before long time ago, I don't think I got an
    >answer so why not try again)
    >Child support, small explanation. I am divorced from my ex
    >in Holland. I have two kids over there. Since my divorce I
    >pay the support that is mandatory for the kids. After my
    >move to and marriage in the US I continued to do so.
    >In Holland you can deduct that kind of child support from
    >your income, so that lowers your taxes. My guess is it is
    >the same in the US. But also when the kids live abroad? I am
    >a Dutch citizen, Conditional Permanent US Resident.
    >--
    >steg
 
Old Dec 14th 2002, 6:05 am
  #9  
Mrs_blackross
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

I can't address the issue of child support deductions, but as far as the SSN
issue is, if the children do not qualify for an SSN but otherwise qualify as
a dependant, you can get a tax ID number issued from the IRS for them. The
form is available for download from the IRS site.
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/artic...=96287,00.html

That is what we did for last year so we could take the deduction for my kids
on our joint taxes.


"gracejilly" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > as a Us Citizen if I had children, I could take a child deduction for
    > each child that has a SSN . I think it is something like $500 per
    > child. Why wouldn't I be able to do the same if I were paying child
    > support to my spouses ex wife? The only issue seems to be that they do
    > not have SSN. It is a fact that in the US every parent can take a
    > deduction, "because they decided to have children". I Would really
    > like to hear from a tax accountant out there who might specialize in
    > immigration related tax returns. My personal accountant tells me no
    > social security number for the dependants, no deduction. Really doesnt
    > seem fair, but thats life.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
 
Old Dec 14th 2002, 6:24 am
  #10  
Steggy
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

DarrNaramgaram wrote:
    >
    > child support is a taxable but non taxable for the reciever,you can pay it from
    > your pay check but its a taxable

What do you mean taxable?

One more try, it has to do with immigration, but the danger
is it will get of that subject. If I pay a monthly amount
for my kids in Europe, while I live and earn my money in the
US, is that money deductable for the US taxes when April
comes close?
--
steg
 
Old Dec 14th 2002, 6:43 am
  #11  
Steggy
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

Matthew Udall wrote:
    >
    > Originally posted by Steggy
    > > In Holland you can deduct that kind of child support from
    > > your income, so that lowers your taxes. My guess is it is
    > > the same in the US. But also when the kids live abroad? I am
    > > a Dutch citizen, Conditional Permanent US Resident.
    > > --
    > > steg
    > OT Reply to Steg:
    > Hi Steg,
    > This is interesting, what you say they do in Holland. Please note that
    > I'm not a tax attorney (I have someone else prepare my tax returns each
    > year), nor do I practice family law in Cal. (or any other state for that
    > matter), and I don't know anything about child support.
    >
    > But I am curious about what they do in Holland. If you did not divorce
    > your spouse and instead continued to live with your spouse and support
    > your children, would those expenses (in supporting your kids) be
    > deductible from your taxable income? If not, doesn’t it seem like an
    > incentive to divorce one's spouse (to be able to claim the deduction)?
    > I guess I don't see why child support should be a deduction when
    > divorced, and not a deduction when married (assuming that is the way it
    > works in Holland).
    >
No flames here)

When you are married both parents are supposed to take care
of the children of course. No deductions.

Now when you divorce another situation is there.

When for instance the ex wife is not working, but just
raising the kids, you are bad off. You have to pay a lot of
money to her and the kids, because she does not have any
income. And vica versa. Big debate about that.

But when both partners have regular jobs another situation occurs.

A decision is made which of the ex partners will be raising
the kids. Being responsible for them and in that way paying
for clothing, school what have you. The other person is in
that case obligated to give child support, depending on
income of both ex partners, but with a minimum, in my case
around 200 dollars a month for two kids. The paying part can
deduct that as costs from his fiscal income, the receiving
part has to pay taxes on that, as regular income. That is
more or less the situation in Holland.

I think that is a fair deal. I am still the father. Nobody
is going to divorce for that, because you are paying 200 a
month, but get just a fraction of that back at the end of
the year through this tax deal. I thought that system was
normal in the USA too. Hence my question.

The difference is I live and work in the US, my kids and ex
live in Holland.
--
steg
 
Old Dec 14th 2002, 6:51 am
  #12  
Steggy
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

gracejilly wrote:
    >
    > as a Us Citizen if I had children, I could take a child deduction for
    > each child that has a SSN . I think it is something like $500 per
    > child. Why wouldn't I be able to do the same if I were paying child
    > support to my spouses ex wife? The only issue seems to be that they do
    > not have SSN. It is a fact that in the US every parent can take a
    > deduction, "because they decided to have children". I Would really
    > like to hear from a tax accountant out there who might specialize in
    > immigration related tax returns. My personal accountant tells me no
    > social security number for the dependants, no deduction. Really doesnt
    > seem fair, but thats life.
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Yes. It all has to do of course with the routing the money
has in a specific economy, in this case the US economy. I
understand part of that. But kids of 10 and 3 (not my case,
but still) have no SSN do they???

The deduction you are speaking about (having kids) exists in
Holland too by the way. More even, besides that every couple
receives a few hundred every quarter per child) That is
something funny I never understood, but well you cannot just
take it away of course.
--
steg
 
Old Dec 14th 2002, 6:54 am
  #13  
Steggy
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

Well what I am talking about is alimony, forced by law and court.
My ex wife (mind you we still have a great relationship)
is paying taxes for that as being regular income. Of course
in Holland.

This is the basic question: can I deduct those payments in America.

steg

Richard III wrote:
    >
    > In the US, maintenance (alimony) is deductable but child support is
    > not - also your divorce decree will, in most cases, specify who gets
    > the deduction for the child(ren) - ask me how I know ;^) -
    >
    > Richard III
    >
    > On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:58:31 -0700, steggy wrote:
    >
    > >I asked this before long time ago, I don't think I got an
    > >answer so why not try again)
    > >
    > >Child support, small explanation. I am divorced from my ex
    > >in Holland. I have two kids over there. Since my divorce I
    > >pay the support that is mandatory for the kids. After my
    > >move to and marriage in the US I continued to do so.
    > >
    > >In Holland you can deduct that kind of child support from
    > >your income, so that lowers your taxes. My guess is it is
    > >the same in the US. But also when the kids live abroad? I am
    > >a Dutch citizen, Conditional Permanent US Resident.
    > >--
    > >steg
 
Old Dec 14th 2002, 7:18 am
  #14  
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

Originally posted by Steggy
Well what I am talking about is alimony, forced by law and court.
My ex wife (mind you we still have a great relationship)
is paying taxes for that as being regular income. Of course
in Holland.

This is the basic question: can I deduct those payments in America.

steg

Ah, the old "this is a simple (or basic) question" qualification. My typical comment before even thinking about answering the question is that sometimes simple questions require complicated and long answers. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've answered the phone to hear, "I have just one simple question" :-).

M.U.
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Old Dec 14th 2002, 7:30 am
  #15  
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Default Re: Coming to think of it: child support.

Originally posted by Steggy
Well what I am talking about is alimony, forced by law and court. My ex wife (mind you we still have a great relationship) is paying taxes for that as being regular income. Of course in Holland.

This is the basic question: can I deduct those payments in America.

steg
Ok, now I'm confused. First you said it was child support, now you say it's alimony.

In any case, regarding child support...

I did a search online and found a multitude of sites stating that child support is not tax deductible. One of those sites was the IRS's site -- http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/page/0,,id%3D16223,00.html.

The IRS says, "Child support is never deductible."

Since this is the case for USC couples with American children, I would *assume* it would also apply (maybe even more so) to CPRs with non-American children who live in a foreign country. That's my educated guess, but perhaps it is best to consult a tax attorney or accountant to be sure.

~ Jenney
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