Ray

Lifted directly from
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/mexican_war.htm
without crediting it too them.. Hopefully you will pay them for reproducing it without permission..

lairdside

Personally I prefer the site of Yale University's Avalon Project.

All sorts of interesting American History info there.

And for someone so "knowledgeable" GQ spelt the name of the treaty wrong.

It's the "Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo" not Hildago.

lairdside

Actually, yes you did (post the facts). It's just usual courtesy to credit the author when quoting someone else.

That aside you posted something informative and showing reasonable, justifiable argument, which I respect.

American history is an interest of mine and seemingly your own. Most Americans in my experience are startlingly ignorant of their own history.

Instead of merely insulting people perhaps you would care to educate them, as it seems you are capable of doing so when you choose to.

IMHO it would give your argument far more validity as a tangible approach. Not all immigrants are hopeless, parasitic losers who came here for a "free ride".

I for one would put my life on the line to defend the U.S. - I love this country and it's people and history.

Your generalizations make you appear to be ignorant which may infact be an injustice. Whereas an educated argument, respectful of others, would hopefully be given the same respect in return by others reasonable enough to do so - even if they disagreed with it.

Just my 2 cents.

Graphic Queen

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:10:42 +0000, lairdside
<member5824@british_expats.com> wrote:

    >Originally posted by ray6
    >> Lifted directly from
    >> ]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-
    >101/ops/mexican_war.htm[/url]
    >> without crediting it too them..
    >Hopefully you will pay them for reproducing it without permission..
    >
    >Personally I prefer the site of Yale University's Avalon
    >Project.
    >All sorts of interesting American History info there.
    >And for
    >someone so "knowledgeable" GQ spelt the name of the treaty wrong.
    >It's
    >the "Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo" not Hildago.

Hey dufus...I didn't write it...just posted to show miss know it all
that she knew nothing at all about the Mexican American war. But I see
that all you people are able to do is worry about where the post was
copied from. This would be because you all got caught with believing
your friend who tried saying it was the Louisiana Purchase. Got caught
and all you can do is bitch about something else. Proves that you
can't stand being proven wrong. I live in New Mexico and I know all
about this war but more because I have a Masters in American History.

Thanks for playing and I am sorry that you all got proven wrong.

BTW, it was not taken from where you all think it was. It was another
website but you all are too much of simple minded dolts to even think
that there could be other places that would post the truth.

GQ

Graphic Queen

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:25:53 +0000, lairdside
<member5824@british_expats.com> wrote:

    >Originally posted by Graphic Queen
    >> On Thu, 18 Mar 2004
    >03:02:22 GMT, "Anonymous" <[email protected]>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>"Graphic Queen" <[email protected]> wrote in
    >message
    >> >news:[email protected]
    >omnews:[email protected] ...
    >>....
    >> >> Santa Ana stepped down as president, and Manuel
    >de la Pena y Pena --
    >> >> president of the supreme court --
    >became acting president. Only after
    >> >> the resignation of
    >Santa Anna was the United States was able to
    >> >> negotiate the
    >Treaty of Guadalupe Hildago, which was signed on 02
    >> >>
    >February 1848. The United States purchased New Mexico and
    >California
    >> >........
    >> >> GQ
    >> >Give credit
    >where credit is due - you didn't really write the above. It
    >>appears to be from the:
    >> >National Archives and Records
    >Administration - USA
    >> >Derk
    >> I never said I wrote it.
    >That comes from your keyboard. I merely
    >> posted the facts that she was
    >saying were lies. Sorry to pop your
    >> bubble but I don't take credit for
    >things I didn't write. I do however
    >> post proof when someone has told
    >me that I don't know what I am
    >> talking about when it comes to history
    >of this country, especially
    >> when she herself couldn't even get her time-
    >line correct about the
    >> Mexican American war and telling people it was
    >the Louisiana Purchase.
    >> How much of a dolt is that?
    >>
    >> GQ
    >Actually, yes you did (post the facts). It's just usual courtesy to
    >credit the author when quoting someone else.

I was in a hurry and that is all. But it was just to prove a point.
    >That aside you posted
    >something informative and showing reasonable, justifiable argument,
    >which I respect.

Thank you.
    >American history is an interest of mine and seemingly
    >your own. Most Americans in my experience are startlingly ignorant of
    >their own history.

yes, I totally agree. I have a Masters in American History and have
always been interested in our history of this country.
    >Instead of merely insulting people perhaps you
    >would care to educate them, as it seems you are capable of doing so when
    >you choose to.
    >IMHO it would give your argument far more validity as a
    >tangible approach. Not all immigrants are hopeless, parasitic losers who
    >came here for a "free ride".

I never said that all immigrants. I did say that most illegals and
many legal immigrants do though.
    >I for one would put my life on the line to
    >defend the U.S. - I love this country and it's people and history.

I love what my country used to be and what it stands for...but not
what it has become. I would still fight for my country though. I
believe in the Constitution which most do not anymore.
    >Your generalizations make you appear to be ignorant which may infact
    >be an injustice. Whereas an educated argument, respectful of others,
    >would hopefully be given the same respect in return by others reasonable
    >enough to do so - even if they disagreed with it.

Kind of the generalizations that mexicans make about us. Touche and I
don't care.

GQ
    >Just my 2 cents.

jeni

Graphic said:
    > Why in the hell do you think they are trying to make the US into
    > Mexico? Of course they love their government. None of the Mexicans in
    > this country are truthful or honest or have good family values. No
    > different than Mexicans in Mexico.

Doesn't appear you have any type of morality or ethical merit yourself.

--
Jennifer

jeni

copy paste copy paste copy paste. you know how!!!

Graphic said:
    > On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:30:36 +0000, Lion in Winter
    > <member14008@british_expats.com> wrote:

    > <snipped>

    >>Please show me where I'm wrong.
    >>The Louisiana Purchase of 1803 was the occasion when 15 million was paid
    >>for land, the Louisiana Territory, and it was paid to France. Of course
    >>it's separate from the Mexican American war. You said that California,
    >>Texas, etc. etc. and the rest were bought with 15 million after a
    >>military defeat of Mexico. I told you that this was not the case, that
    >>the 15 million you referred to was the Louisiana Purchase. Texas, Cal.
    >>Utah, etc. etc. were not "bought" and the 15 million had nothing to do
    >>with it. They were conquered and taken militarily from Mexico.
    >>Lousiana Purchase, one thing. Mexican-American War another. You can't
    >>change history to suit your viewpoint, and screaming abuse at people
    >>won't make you right and won't make people sign up for your racist,
    >>ignorant agenda. Nighty-night and end of troll-feeding for you,
    >>sweetheart.

    > OK, since you need some history about the war and the outcome...here
    > ya go miss know it all.

    > Santa Ana stepped down as president, and Manuel de la Pena y Pena --
    > president of the supreme court -- became acting president. Only after
    > the resignation of Santa Anna was the United States was able to
    > negotiate the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildago, which was signed on 02
    > February 1848. The United States purchased New Mexico and California
    > for $15 million, and paid more $3 million in damage claims that Mexico
    > owed American citizens. In addition to Mexican recognition of the US
    > annexation of Texas, it also recognized the Rio Grande river as the
    > southern border of Texas.

    > Here is the basic history of the damn war for people like you who
    > don't happen to know your history.

    > were multiple reasons for the Mexican War. One immediate cause was the
    > American annexation of Texas; the Mexican government regarded this a
    > declaration of war, and removed the Mexican minister from Washington.
    > Another cause was American claims against Mexico arising from the
    > Mexican revolutions. Following Mexico's independence from Spain,
    > American and European cartographers fixed the Texas border at the
    > Neuces River. Prior to Texas's independence, the Neuces River was
    > recognized as the northern boundary of Mexico. Spain had fixed the
    > Neuces as a border in 1816, and the United States ratified it in the
    > 1819 treaty by which the United States had purchased Florida and
    > renounced claims to Texas.
    > Throughout the 1820s, Americans settled in the vast territory of
    > Texas, often with land grants from the Mexican government. Their
    > numbers soon alarmed the authorities, however, who prohibited further
    > immigration in 1830. In 1834 General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna
    > established a dictatorship in Mexico, and the following year Texans
    > revolted.


    > Santa Anna defeated the American rebels at the celebrated siege of the
    > Alamo in early 1836. On 21 April 1836 General Sam Houston with some
    > 1,000 Texans under his command annihilated the 1,400-man army of Santa
    > Anna. The Battle of San Jacinto lasted 18 minutes, and won Texas its
    > independence from Mexico. When Texas declared its independence, it
    > claimed as its territory an additional 150 miles of land, to the Rio
    > Grande River. For almost a decade, Texas remained an independent
    > republic.
    > At first, the American government strove to preserve peace with the
    > goal to purchase New Mexico and California. The Jackson and Van Buren
    > administrations feared both diplomatic trouble and the political
    > consequences of admission of a new slave state; they therefore did not
    > press the issue. The frontrunners in the 1844 presidential
    > nominations, Democrat Martin Van Buren and Whig Henry Clay, announced
    > they were against immediate annexation of Texas. In response, Southern
    > democrats managed to block Van Buren's nomination, allowing dark horse
    > James K. Polk to come to the forefront. He campaigned for the
    > acquisition of both Texas and Oregon. Clay, seeing the popularity of
    > Polk's stand, began hedging on the question of annexation, thus
    > causing a defection of anti-slavery Whigs from the party, a defection
    > which probably cost him the election.

    > After Texas gained its independence from Mexico, its voters
    > overwhelmingly supported annexation into the United States. Although
    > Mexico broke relations with the United States over the issue of Texas
    > statehood, the most contentious issue was the new state's border:
    > Texas claimed the Rio Grande River; Mexico argued that the border
    > stood far to the north along the Nueces River. Meanwhile, settlers
    > were flooding into the territories of New Mexico and California at a
    > time when many Americans claimed that the United States had a
    > "manifest destiny" to expand westward to the Pacific Ocean.

    > In early 1845 Congress employed its power to admit new states, and
    > annexed Texas by a majority vote. The annexation of Texas brought into
    > the Union all or parts of Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and
    > Wyoming. The admission of Texas into the Union helped to speed the
    > disintegration of the national political parties. Many Van Buren
    > Democrats, convinced that southerners had trampled over their rights,
    > left the party for the Free-Soil or Republican parties. Political
    > ideologies and political parties were thus becoming sectional, making
    > the Civil War almost unavoidable. The United States also adopted
    > Texas's position and claimed the Rio Grande as the border, helping to
    > provoke war with Mexico.

    > The "Army of Observation" commanded bv General Zachary Taylor was
    > deployed to Corpus Christi, at the mouth of the Nueces River, to
    > protect newly annexed Texas in the summer of 1845. The force consisted
    > of 5 regiments of infantry, 1 regiment of dragoons, and 16 companies
    > of artillery.

    > Mexico broke diplomatic relations with the United States and refused
    > to recognize either the Texas annexation or the Rio Grande border.
    > President James Polk sent a special envoy, John L. Slidell, to propose
    > cancellation of Mexico's debt to United States citizens who had
    > incurred damages during the Mexican Revolution, provided Mexico would
    > formally recognize the Rio Grande boundary. Slidell was also
    > authorized to offer the Mexican government up to $30 million for
    > California and New Mexico. At that time, New Mexico embraced much of
    > what is now the southwestern United States, not just the present state
    > of New Mexico.

    > Between Slidell's arrival on December 6, 1845, and his departure in
    > March 1846, the regime of President Jose Herrara was overthrown and a
    > fervently nationalistic government under General Mariano Paredes
    > seized power. Neither leader would speak to Slidell. When Paredes
    > publicly reaffirmed Mexico's claim to all of Texas, Slidell left in a
    > temper, convinced that Mexico should be "chastised."

    > The agent for chastisement was already in place. In mid-January 1846,
    > more than 3,500 troops commanded bv General Taylor moved south under
    > President Polk's order from Corpus Christi to a location on the north
    > bank of the Rio Grande. Advancing on March 8 to Point Isabel, the US
    > troops found that the settlement had been burned by fleeing Mexicans.
    > By March 28, the troops were near the mouth of the Rio Grande across
    > from the Mexican town of Matamoros. The Rio Grande formed part of the
    > border between the United States and Mexico.

    > Polk claimed the move was a defensive measure, and expansionists and
    > Democratic newspapers in the United States applauded his action. Whig
    > newspapers said that the movement was an invasion of Mexico rather
    > than a defense of Texas. General Taylor sent one of his officers
    > across the river to meet with Mexican officials. The Mexicans
    > protested the movement of the American troops to the Rio Grande. They
    > said the area was Mexican territory. The movement of American troops
    > there, they said, was an act of war. For almost a month, the Americans
    > and the Mexicans kept their positions. While newspapers in Mexico
    > called for war, General Pedro de Ampudia warned, "If you insist in
    > remaining upon the soil of the department of Tamaulipas, it will
    > clearly result that arms, and arms alone, must decide the question."

    > General Ampudia's prediction came true on 25 April 1846, when General
    > Taylor received word that a large Mexican force had crossed the border
    > a few kilometers up the river. A small force of American soldiers went
    > to investigate. The Mexican cavalry attacked the mounted American
    > patrol, killing five, wounding eleven, and capturing forty-seven.
    > General Taylor quickly sent a message to President Polk in Washington.
    > It said war had begun.


    > President Polk sent his war message to Congress on May 11 asserting,
    > "Mexico has passed the boundary of the United States, has invaded our
    > territory and shed American blood upon America's soil." He asked
    > congress to give him everything he needed to win the war and bring
    > peace to the area. On May 13, Congress declared war, with a vote of
    > 40-2 in the Senate and 174-14 in the House. President Polk signed the
    > war bill. Later, Polk wrote: "we had not gone to war for conquest. But
    > it was clear that in making peace we would, if possible, get
    > California and other parts of Mexico."
    > A few members of congress did not want to declare war against Mexico.
    > They believed the United States was responsible for the situation
    > along the Rio Grande. Ohio Senator Tom Corwin accused Polk of
    > involving the United States in a war of aggression. Senator John C.
    > Calhoun of South Carolina abstained from voting, correctly foreseeing
    > that the war would aggravate sectional strife. A freshman Whig
    > Congressman from Illinois, Abraham Lincoln, questioned whether the
    > "spot" where blood had been shed was really US soil. Other citizens
    > shared their legislators' concern, particularly those in the Northeast
    > who saw the war as a ploy to extend slavery. The most celebrated was
    > Henry David Thoreau, who refused to pay his $1 Massachusetts poll tax
    > because he believed the war an immoral advancement of slavery.

    > Many Americans opposed what they called "Mister Polk's War." Whig
    > Party members and abolitionists in the North believed that
    > slave-owners and Southerners in Polk's administration had planned the
    > war. They believed the South wanted to win Mexican territory for the
    > purpose of spreading and strengthening slavery. President Polk was
    > troubled by this opposition. But he did not think the war would last
    > long. He thought the US could quickly force Mexico to sell him the
    > territory he wanted.

    > Polk secretly sent a representative to former Mexican dictator Santa
    > Ana, who was living in exile in Cuba. Polk's representative said the
    > United States wanted to buy California and some other Mexican
    > territory. Santa Ana said he would agree to the sale, if the united
    > states would help him return to power. President Polk ordered the US
    > Navy to let Santa Ana return to Mexico. American ships that blocked
    > the port of Vera Cruz permitted the Mexican dictator to land there.
    > Once Santa Ana returned, he failed to honor his promises to Polk. He
    > refused to end the war and sell California. Instead, Santa Ana
    > organized an army to fight the United States.

    > The American Army that undertook the task of subduing Mexico was
    > inconceivably small by modern standards. When the fighting started in
    > May 1846, the regular Army had 6,562 soldiers, including 637 officers
    > and 5,925 enlisted personnel. More than one-half of this strength
    > (3,922 men organized in three brigades) was assembled in Texas under
    > Taylor (who later was elected President), the largest force assembled
    > by the United States since the War of 1812. During the course of the
    > war, 1,016 officers and 35,009 enlisted soldiers joined the regular
    > Army, so the total of regular troops engaged was 42,587. Another
    > 73,532 men served in volunteer units, though not all of them reached
    > the theaters of operations.

    > The initial clashes, at Palo Alto and Resaca de la Palma (near
    > present-day Brownsville, Texas) in May 1846, were decisive American
    > victories that threw the Mexican force back across the Rio Grande.
    > Those battles determined that the war would be fought on Mexican soil,
    > with the Mexican Army almost always on the defensive.

    > Denied the right to own land or hold office, on 14 June 1846 a band of
    > American settlers in California arrested the Mexican govenor, and
    > declared California an independent republic. The newly independent
    > California Republic survived only 25 days. On 07 July 1846, an
    > American naval vessel captured the Mexican capital at Monterey and
    > claimed all of California for the United States.

    > General Taylor moved against the Mexicans. In September 1846 he
    > crossed the Rio Grande river and marched toward Monterrey, the major
    > trading and transportation center of northeast Mexico. The battle for
    > Monterrey lasted three days, and the Mexicans surrendered. After
    > capturing the city, Taylor negotiated an armistice with his opponent.
    > Taylor needed a pause to replenish his ammunition stocks. However, the
    > armistice was rejected by his superiors in Washington, and as soon as
    > the slow communications of the day permitted, Taylor received orders
    > to end the armistice and resume offensive operations. Taylor's victory
    > at Buena Vista on 22 and 23 February 1847 was the first major battle
    > in history in which both sides were armed for the most part with
    > percussion weapons rather than flintlocks.

    > By October 1846, President Polk had decided to change strategy,
    > holding Taylor on the defensive in the north and concentrating
    > offensive efforts on seizing Vera Cruz and then moving inland to
    > assault the capital, Mexico City. General Taylor was ordered to send
    > most of his forces back to the coast. They were to join other American
    > forces for the invasion of Vera Cruz, which would make marching to
    > Mexico City easy. While this was happening, Santa Ana was moving his
    > army north. In four months, he had built an army of 25,000 men. When
    > general Taylor learned that Santa Ana was preparing to attack, he left
    > Vera Cruz. He moved his forces into a position to fight Santa Ana, who
    > sent a representative to meet with General Taylor. The representative
    > said the American force had one hour to surrender. Taylor's answer was
    > short: "tell Santa Ana to go to hell." the battle between the American
    > and Mexican forces lasted two days. Losses were heavy on both sides.
    > On the night of 29 March 1847, Santa Ana's army withdrew from the
    > battlefield. Taylor had won another victory.

    > Other American forces were victorious, too. Commodore Robert Stockton
    > had invaded California and had raised the American flag over the
    > territory. Stephen Kearny had seized Santa Fe, the capital of New
    > Mexico, without firing a shot.

    > The decisive campaign of the Mexican War was Winfield Scott's overland
    > offensive designed to capture Mexico City and end Mexican resistance.
    > In one of the great achievements in US military history, Winfield
    > Scott's forces staged an amphibious landing at Vera Cruz that captured
    > the port on 9 March 1847. The Mexican commander chose not to oppose
    > the landing, so over 8,600 men were landed without a single loss in
    > just over 4 hours. This was an unprecedented military achievement for
    > the time. Following a brief siege, Vera Cruz surrendered on 29 March
    > 1847.

    > Still, the war was not over. President Polk's "short" war already had
    > lasted for more than a year. Polk decided to send a special diplomatic
    > representative to Mexico. He gave the diplomat the power to negotiate
    > a peace treaty whenever Mexico wanted to stop fighting. A ceasefire
    > was declared, but attempts to negotiate a peace treaty failed. Santa
    > Ana tried to use the ceasefire to prepare for more fighting.

    > When the war began President Polk had three strategic objectives:
    > defend the boundary of Texas claimed by the United States, which was
    > the Rio Grande River; seize New Mexico and California; and achieve
    > sufficient military success in Mexico to force it to make peace on
    > terms favoring the United States. These were ambitious goals, but they
    > also were limited and did not envision a conquest of Mexico. Polk
    > thought they could be achieved in 6 to 12 months by operations
    > confined to what was then the northern portion of Mexico. When
    > American successes in the north, including the conquest of New Mexico
    > and California, did not lead to Mexican surrender, Polk and his
    > advisers turned to a more ambitious campaign against the Mexican
    > heartland aimed at capturing the capital, Mexico City.

    > After the capture of Vera Cruz, General Winfield Scott led the army
    > westward via Jalapa to Pueblo, where he prepared to attack Mexico
    > City. Scott adopted a daring strategy, cuttin his supply lines from
    > Vera Cruz, he relied on his support trains supplemented by what could
    > be obtained along the way. This risked isolating his army in the midst
    > of a hostile countryside. But the gamble proved successful, and the
    > army reached the outskirts of Mexico City on 18 August 1847.

    > General Scott ended the ceasefire, and began the attack on Mexico City
    > which lasted one week. The government of Mexico surrendered on
    > September 14, 1847, which ended the fighting. Marines participated in
    > the capture and occupation of Mexico City and the Castle of
    > Chapultepec, otherwise known as the "Halls of Montezuma." Following
    > the close of the Mexican War came the first verse of the Marines'
    > Hymn, written, according to tradition, by a Marine on duty in Mexico:
    > "From the Halls of Montezuma, To the Shores of Tripoli."

    > Santa Ana stepped down as president, and Manuel de la Pena y Pena --
    > president of the supreme court -- became acting president. Only after
    > the resignation of Santa Anna was the United States was able to
    > negotiate the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildago, which was signed on 02
    > February 1848. The United States purchased New Mexico and California
    > for $15 million, and paid more $3 million in damage claims that Mexico
    > owed American citizens. In addition to Mexican recognition of the US
    > annexation of Texas, it also recognized the Rio Grande river as the
    > southern border of Texas.

    > The terms of the treaty were those set by president Polk. Yet he was
    > not satisfied with just California and New Mexico -- he wanted even
    > more territory. But he realized he probably would have to fight for
    > it. And he did not think Congress would agree to extend the war. So
    > Polk sent the peace treaty to the senate. It was approved. The Mexican
    > congress also approved it. The war was officially over by May 1848.

    > The Mexican War saw the first major use of steamboats in war [though
    > the Army made limited use of steamboats in the Second Seminole War in
    > Florida from 1835 to 1842]. Steamboats were used to transport men and
    > supplies down the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers to New Orleans for
    > subsequent overseas movement. Steamboats also were used to establish a
    > line of communication for Taylor's army along the Rio Grande when,
    > after Resaca de la Palma, Taylor moved his army up the river in the
    > first stage of an offensive against Monterrey.

    > The war proved to be a training ground for American officers who would
    > later fight on both sides in the Civil War. Grant, Lee, Meade, Bragg,
    > Davis, McClellan, and many others gained experience and learned
    > lessons at Buena Vista and Cerro Gordo that later served them well at
    > Antietam and Gettysburg. It was also a politically divisive war in
    > which antislavery Whigs criticized the Democratic administration of
    > James K. Polk for expansionism.

    > With the conclusion of the Mexican War, the United States gained a
    > vast new territory of 1.36 million square kilometers encompassing the
    > present-day states of Arizona, Nevada, California, Utah and parts of
    > New Mexico, Colorado and Wyoming. But it was also a poisoned
    > acquisition because it revived the most explosive question in American
    > politics of the time: would the new territories be slave or free?

    > The United States now faced the problem of what to do with the new
    > lands. President Polk wanted to form territorial governments in
    > California and New Mexico. He asked Congress for immediate permission
    > to do that. But the question of slavery delayed quick congressional
    > action. Should the new territories be opened or closed to slavery?
    > Southerners argued that they had the right to take slaves into the new
    > territories. Northerners disagreed. They opposed any further spread of
    > slavery.

    > The real question was this: did congress have the power to control or
    > bar slavery in the territories? Until texas became a state, almost all
    > national leaders seemed to accept the idea that congress did have this
    > power. For fifty years, congress had passed resolutions and laws
    > controlling slavery in united states territories. Northerners believed
    > congress received the power from the constitution. Southern slave
    > owners disagreed. They believed the power to control slavery remained
    > with the states.

    > There were some who thought the earlier Missouri compromise could be
    > used to settle the issue of slavery in California, Oregon, and New
    > Mexico. They proposed that the line of the Missouri compromise be
    > pushed west, all the way to the pacific coast. Territory north of the
    > line would be free of slavery. South of the line, slavery would be
    > permitted. Everyone agreed that governments had to be organized in the
    > territories. But there seemed to be no way to settle the issue of
    > slavery. Then a senator from Delaware agreed to be chairman of a
    > special committee on the question of slavery in the new territories.
    > The senate committee included four Whigs and four Democrats. North and
    > South were equally represented. Within six days, the committee had
    > agreed on a compromise bill.

    > GQ


--
Jennifer

jeni

Graphic said:

    > I am Indian asshole. I am half Apache. Got any other idiotic
    > statements?

do you?
--
Jennifer

Graphic Queen

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:18:08 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:

    >copy paste copy paste copy paste. you know how!!!

Yep and proved that you and others know nothing of the true history of
this country and Mexico.
    >Graphic said:
    >> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:30:36 +0000, Lion in Winter
    >> <member14008@british_expats.com> wrote:
    >> <snipped>
    >>>Please show me where I'm wrong.
    >>>The Louisiana Purchase of 1803 was the occasion when 15 million was paid
    >>>for land, the Louisiana Territory, and it was paid to France. Of course
    >>>it's separate from the Mexican American war. You said that California,
    >>>Texas, etc. etc. and the rest were bought with 15 million after a
    >>>military defeat of Mexico. I told you that this was not the case, that
    >>>the 15 million you referred to was the Louisiana Purchase. Texas, Cal.
    >>>Utah, etc. etc. were not "bought" and the 15 million had nothing to do
    >>>with it. They were conquered and taken militarily from Mexico.
    >>>Lousiana Purchase, one thing. Mexican-American War another. You can't
    >>>change history to suit your viewpoint, and screaming abuse at people
    >>>won't make you right and won't make people sign up for your racist,
    >>>ignorant agenda. Nighty-night and end of troll-feeding for you,
    >>>sweetheart.
    >> OK, since you need some history about the war and the outcome...here
    >> ya go miss know it all.
    >> Santa Ana stepped down as president, and Manuel de la Pena y Pena --
    >> president of the supreme court -- became acting president. Only after
    >> the resignation of Santa Anna was the United States was able to
    >> negotiate the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildago, which was signed on 02
    >> February 1848. The United States purchased New Mexico and California
    >> for $15 million, and paid more $3 million in damage claims that Mexico
    >> owed American citizens. In addition to Mexican recognition of the US
    >> annexation of Texas, it also recognized the Rio Grande river as the
    >> southern border of Texas.
    >> Here is the basic history of the damn war for people like you who
    >> don't happen to know your history.
    >> were multiple reasons for the Mexican War. One immediate cause was the
    >> American annexation of Texas; the Mexican government regarded this a
    >> declaration of war, and removed the Mexican minister from Washington.
    >> Another cause was American claims against Mexico arising from the
    >> Mexican revolutions. Following Mexico's independence from Spain,
    >> American and European cartographers fixed the Texas border at the
    >> Neuces River. Prior to Texas's independence, the Neuces River was
    >> recognized as the northern boundary of Mexico. Spain had fixed the
    >> Neuces as a border in 1816, and the United States ratified it in the
    >> 1819 treaty by which the United States had purchased Florida and
    >> renounced claims to Texas.
    >> Throughout the 1820s, Americans settled in the vast territory of
    >> Texas, often with land grants from the Mexican government. Their
    >> numbers soon alarmed the authorities, however, who prohibited further
    >> immigration in 1830. In 1834 General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna
    >> established a dictatorship in Mexico, and the following year Texans
    >> revolted.
    >> Santa Anna defeated the American rebels at the celebrated siege of the
    >> Alamo in early 1836. On 21 April 1836 General Sam Houston with some
    >> 1,000 Texans under his command annihilated the 1,400-man army of Santa
    >> Anna. The Battle of San Jacinto lasted 18 minutes, and won Texas its
    >> independence from Mexico. When Texas declared its independence, it
    >> claimed as its territory an additional 150 miles of land, to the Rio
    >> Grande River. For almost a decade, Texas remained an independent
    >> republic.
    >> At first, the American government strove to preserve peace with the
    >> goal to purchase New Mexico and California. The Jackson and Van Buren
    >> administrations feared both diplomatic trouble and the political
    >> consequences of admission of a new slave state; they therefore did not
    >> press the issue. The frontrunners in the 1844 presidential
    >> nominations, Democrat Martin Van Buren and Whig Henry Clay, announced
    >> they were against immediate annexation of Texas. In response, Southern
    >> democrats managed to block Van Buren's nomination, allowing dark horse
    >> James K. Polk to come to the forefront. He campaigned for the
    >> acquisition of both Texas and Oregon. Clay, seeing the popularity of
    >> Polk's stand, began hedging on the question of annexation, thus
    >> causing a defection of anti-slavery Whigs from the party, a defection
    >> which probably cost him the election.
    >> After Texas gained its independence from Mexico, its voters
    >> overwhelmingly supported annexation into the United States. Although
    >> Mexico broke relations with the United States over the issue of Texas
    >> statehood, the most contentious issue was the new state's border:
    >> Texas claimed the Rio Grande River; Mexico argued that the border
    >> stood far to the north along the Nueces River. Meanwhile, settlers
    >> were flooding into the territories of New Mexico and California at a
    >> time when many Americans claimed that the United States had a
    >> "manifest destiny" to expand westward to the Pacific Ocean.
    >> In early 1845 Congress employed its power to admit new states, and
    >> annexed Texas by a majority vote. The annexation of Texas brought into
    >> the Union all or parts of Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and
    >> Wyoming. The admission of Texas into the Union helped to speed the
    >> disintegration of the national political parties. Many Van Buren
    >> Democrats, convinced that southerners had trampled over their rights,
    >> left the party for the Free-Soil or Republican parties. Political
    >> ideologies and political parties were thus becoming sectional, making
    >> the Civil War almost unavoidable. The United States also adopted
    >> Texas's position and claimed the Rio Grande as the border, helping to
    >> provoke war with Mexico.
    >> The "Army of Observation" commanded bv General Zachary Taylor was
    >> deployed to Corpus Christi, at the mouth of the Nueces River, to
    >> protect newly annexed Texas in the summer of 1845. The force consisted
    >> of 5 regiments of infantry, 1 regiment of dragoons, and 16 companies
    >> of artillery.
    >> Mexico broke diplomatic relations with the United States and refused
    >> to recognize either the Texas annexation or the Rio Grande border.
    >> President James Polk sent a special envoy, John L. Slidell, to propose
    >> cancellation of Mexico's debt to United States citizens who had
    >> incurred damages during the Mexican Revolution, provided Mexico would
    >> formally recognize the Rio Grande boundary. Slidell was also
    >> authorized to offer the Mexican government up to $30 million for
    >> California and New Mexico. At that time, New Mexico embraced much of
    >> what is now the southwestern United States, not just the present state
    >> of New Mexico.
    >> Between Slidell's arrival on December 6, 1845, and his departure in
    >> March 1846, the regime of President Jose Herrara was overthrown and a
    >> fervently nationalistic government under General Mariano Paredes
    >> seized power. Neither leader would speak to Slidell. When Paredes
    >> publicly reaffirmed Mexico's claim to all of Texas, Slidell left in a
    >> temper, convinced that Mexico should be "chastised."
    >> The agent for chastisement was already in place. In mid-January 1846,
    >> more than 3,500 troops commanded bv General Taylor moved south under
    >> President Polk's order from Corpus Christi to a location on the north
    >> bank of the Rio Grande. Advancing on March 8 to Point Isabel, the US
    >> troops found that the settlement had been burned by fleeing Mexicans.
    >> By March 28, the troops were near the mouth of the Rio Grande across
    >> from the Mexican town of Matamoros. The Rio Grande formed part of the
    >> border between the United States and Mexico.
    >> Polk claimed the move was a defensive measure, and expansionists and
    >> Democratic newspapers in the United States applauded his action. Whig
    >> newspapers said that the movement was an invasion of Mexico rather
    >> than a defense of Texas. General Taylor sent one of his officers
    >> across the river to meet with Mexican officials. The Mexicans
    >> protested the movement of the American troops to the Rio Grande. They
    >> said the area was Mexican territory. The movement of American troops
    >> there, they said, was an act of war. For almost a month, the Americans
    >> and the Mexicans kept their positions. While newspapers in Mexico
    >> called for war, General Pedro de Ampudia warned, "If you insist in
    >> remaining upon the soil of the department of Tamaulipas, it will
    >> clearly result that arms, and arms alone, must decide the question."
    >> General Ampudia's prediction came true on 25 April 1846, when General
    >> Taylor received word that a large Mexican force had crossed the border
    >> a few kilometers up the river. A small force of American soldiers went
    >> to investigate. The Mexican cavalry attacked the mounted American
    >> patrol, killing five, wounding eleven, and capturing forty-seven.
    >> General Taylor quickly sent a message to President Polk in Washington.
    >> It said war had begun.
    >> President Polk sent his war message to Congress on May 11 asserting,
    >> "Mexico has passed the boundary of the United States, has invaded our
    >> territory and shed American blood upon America's soil." He asked
    >> congress to give him everything he needed to win the war and bring
    >> peace to the area. On May 13, Congress declared war, with a vote of
    >> 40-2 in the Senate and 174-14 in the House. President Polk signed the
    >> war bill. Later, Polk wrote: "we had not gone to war for conquest. But
    >> it was clear that in making peace we would, if possible, get
    >> California and other parts of Mexico."
    >> A few members of congress did not want to declare war against Mexico.
    >> They believed the United States was responsible for the situation
    >> along the Rio Grande. Ohio Senator Tom Corwin accused Polk of
    >> involving the United States in a war of aggression. Senator John C.
    >> Calhoun of South Carolina abstained from voting, correctly foreseeing
    >> that the war would aggravate sectional strife. A freshman Whig
    >> Congressman from Illinois, Abraham Lincoln, questioned whether the
    >> "spot" where blood had been shed was really US soil. Other citizens
    >> shared their legislators' concern, particularly those in the Northeast
    >> who saw the war as a ploy to extend slavery. The most celebrated was
    >> Henry David Thoreau, who refused to pay his $1 Massachusetts poll tax
    >> because he believed the war an immoral advancement of slavery.
    >> Many Americans opposed what they called "Mister Polk's War." Whig
    >> Party members and abolitionists in the North believed that
    >> slave-owners and Southerners in Polk's administration had planned the
    >> war. They believed the South wanted to win Mexican territory for the
    >> purpose of spreading and strengthening slavery. President Polk was
    >> troubled by this opposition. But he did not think the war would last
    >> long. He thought the US could quickly force Mexico to sell him the
    >> territory he wanted.
    >> Polk secretly sent a representative to former Mexican dictator Santa
    >> Ana, who was living in exile in Cuba. Polk's representative said the
    >> United States wanted to buy California and some other Mexican
    >> territory. Santa Ana said he would agree to the sale, if the united
    >> states would help him return to power. President Polk ordered the US
    >> Navy to let Santa Ana return to Mexico. American ships that blocked
    >> the port of Vera Cruz permitted the Mexican dictator to land there.
    >> Once Santa Ana returned, he failed to honor his promises to Polk. He
    >> refused to end the war and sell California. Instead, Santa Ana
    >> organized an army to fight the United States.
    >> The American Army that undertook the task of subduing Mexico was
    >> inconceivably small by modern standards. When the fighting started in
    >> May 1846, the regular Army had 6,562 soldiers, including 637 officers
    >> and 5,925 enlisted personnel. More than one-half of this strength
    >> (3,922 men organized in three brigades) was assembled in Texas under
    >> Taylor (who later was elected President), the largest force assembled
    >> by the United States since the War of 1812. During the course of the
    >> war, 1,016 officers and 35,009 enlisted soldiers joined the regular
    >> Army, so the total of regular troops engaged was 42,587. Another
    >> 73,532 men served in volunteer units, though not all of them reached
    >> the theaters of operations.
    >> The initial clashes, at Palo Alto and Resaca de la Palma (near
    >> present-day Brownsville, Texas) in May 1846, were decisive American
    >> victories that threw the Mexican force back across the Rio Grande.
    >> Those battles determined that the war would be fought on Mexican soil,
    >> with the Mexican Army almost always on the defensive.
    >> Denied the right to own land or hold office, on 14 June 1846 a band of
    >> American settlers in California arrested the Mexican govenor, and
    >> declared California an independent republic. The newly independent
    >> California Republic survived only 25 days. On 07 July 1846, an
    >> American naval vessel captured the Mexican capital at Monterey and
    >> claimed all of California for the United States.
    >> General Taylor moved against the Mexicans. In September 1846 he
    >> crossed the Rio Grande river and marched toward Monterrey, the major
    >> trading and transportation center of northeast Mexico. The battle for
    >> Monterrey lasted three days, and the Mexicans surrendered. After
    >> capturing the city, Taylor negotiated an armistice with his opponent.
    >> Taylor needed a pause to replenish his ammunition stocks. However, the
    >> armistice was rejected by his superiors in Washington, and as soon as
    >> the slow communications of the day permitted, Taylor received orders
    >> to end the armistice and resume offensive operations. Taylor's victory
    >> at Buena Vista on 22 and 23 February 1847 was the first major battle
    >> in history in which both sides were armed for the most part with
    >> percussion weapons rather than flintlocks.
    >> By October 1846, President Polk had decided to change strategy,
    >> holding Taylor on the defensive in the north and concentrating
    >> offensive efforts on seizing Vera Cruz and then moving inland to
    >> assault the capital, Mexico City. General Taylor was ordered to send
    >> most of his forces back to the coast. They were to join other American
    >> forces for the invasion of Vera Cruz, which would make marching to
    >> Mexico City easy. While this was happening, Santa Ana was moving his
    >> army north. In four months, he had built an army of 25,000 men. When
    >> general Taylor learned that Santa Ana was preparing to attack, he left
    >> Vera Cruz. He moved his forces into a position to fight Santa Ana, who
    >> sent a representative to meet with General Taylor. The representative
    >> said the American force had one hour to surrender. Taylor's answer was
    >> short: "tell Santa Ana to go to hell." the battle between the American
    >> and Mexican forces lasted two days. Losses were heavy on both sides.
    >> On the night of 29 March 1847, Santa Ana's army withdrew from the
    >> battlefield. Taylor had won another victory.
    >> Other American forces were victorious, too. Commodore Robert Stockton
    >> had invaded California and had raised the American flag over the
    >> territory. Stephen Kearny had seized Santa Fe, the capital of New
    >> Mexico, without firing a shot.
    >> The decisive campaign of the Mexican War was Winfield Scott's overland
    >> offensive designed to capture Mexico City and end Mexican resistance.
    >> In one of the great achievements in US military history, Winfield
    >> Scott's forces staged an amphibious landing at Vera Cruz that captured
    >> the port on 9 March 1847. The Mexican commander chose not to oppose
    >> the landing, so over 8,600 men were landed without a single loss in
    >> just over 4 hours. This was an unprecedented military achievement for
    >> the time. Following a brief siege, Vera Cruz surrendered on 29 March
    >> 1847.
    >> Still, the war was not over. President Polk's "short" war already had
    >> lasted for more than a year. Polk decided to send a special diplomatic
    >> representative to Mexico. He gave the diplomat the power to negotiate
    >> a peace treaty whenever Mexico wanted to stop fighting. A ceasefire
    >> was declared, but attempts to negotiate a peace treaty failed. Santa
    >> Ana tried to use the ceasefire to prepare for more fighting.
    >> When the war began President Polk had three strategic objectives:
    >> defend the boundary of Texas claimed by the United States, which was
    >> the Rio Grande River; seize New Mexico and California; and achieve
    >> sufficient military success in Mexico to force it to make peace on
    >> terms favoring the United States. These were ambitious goals, but they
    >> also were limited and did not envision a conquest of Mexico. Polk
    >> thought they could be achieved in 6 to 12 months by operations
    >> confined to what was then the northern portion of Mexico. When
    >> American successes in the north, including the conquest of New Mexico
    >> and California, did not lead to Mexican surrender, Polk and his
    >> advisers turned to a more ambitious campaign against the Mexican
    >> heartland aimed at capturing the capital, Mexico City.
    >> After the capture of Vera Cruz, General Winfield Scott led the army
    >> westward via Jalapa to Pueblo, where he prepared to attack Mexico
    >> City. Scott adopted a daring strategy, cuttin his supply lines from
    >> Vera Cruz, he relied on his support trains supplemented by what could
    >> be obtained along the way. This risked isolating his army in the midst
    >> of a hostile countryside. But the gamble proved successful, and the
    >> army reached the outskirts of Mexico City on 18 August 1847.
    >> General Scott ended the ceasefire, and began the attack on Mexico City
    >> which lasted one week. The government of Mexico surrendered on
    >> September 14, 1847, which ended the fighting. Marines participated in
    >> the capture and occupation of Mexico City and the Castle of
    >> Chapultepec, otherwise known as the "Halls of Montezuma." Following
    >> the close of the Mexican War came the first verse of the Marines'
    >> Hymn, written, according to tradition, by a Marine on duty in Mexico:
    >> "From the Halls of Montezuma, To the Shores of Tripoli."
    >> Santa Ana stepped down as president, and Manuel de la Pena y Pena --
    >> president of the supreme court -- became acting president. Only after
    >> the resignation of Santa Anna was the United States was able to
    >> negotiate the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildago, which was signed on 02
    >> February 1848. The United States purchased New Mexico and California
    >> for $15 million, and paid more $3 million in damage claims that Mexico
    >> owed American citizens. In addition to Mexican recognition of the US
    >> annexation of Texas, it also recognized the Rio Grande river as the
    >> southern border of Texas.
    >> The terms of the treaty were those set by president Polk. Yet he was
    >> not satisfied with just California and New Mexico -- he wanted even
    >> more territory. But he realized he probably would have to fight for
    >> it. And he did not think Congress would agree to extend the war. So
    >> Polk sent the peace treaty to the senate. It was approved. The Mexican
    >> congress also approved it. The war was officially over by May 1848.
    >> The Mexican War saw the first major use of steamboats in war [though
    >> the Army made limited use of steamboats in the Second Seminole War in
    >> Florida from 1835 to 1842]. Steamboats were used to transport men and
    >> supplies down the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers to New Orleans for
    >> subsequent overseas movement. Steamboats also were used to establish a
    >> line of communication for Taylor's army along the Rio Grande when,
    >> after Resaca de la Palma, Taylor moved his army up the river in the
    >> first stage of an offensive against Monterrey.
    >> The war proved to be a training ground for American officers who would
    >> later fight on both sides in the Civil War. Grant, Lee, Meade, Bragg,
    >> Davis, McClellan, and many others gained experience and learned
    >> lessons at Buena Vista and Cerro Gordo that later served them well at
    >> Antietam and Gettysburg. It was also a politically divisive war in
    >> which antislavery Whigs criticized the Democratic administration of
    >> James K. Polk for expansionism.
    >> With the conclusion of the Mexican War, the United States gained a
    >> vast new territory of 1.36 million square kilometers encompassing the
    >> present-day states of Arizona, Nevada, California, Utah and parts of
    >> New Mexico, Colorado and Wyoming. But it was also a poisoned
    >> acquisition because it revived the most explosive question in American
    >> politics of the time: would the new territories be slave or free?
    >> The United States now faced the problem of what to do with the new
    >> lands. President Polk wanted to form territorial governments in
    >> California and New Mexico. He asked Congress for immediate permission
    >> to do that. But the question of slavery delayed quick congressional
    >> action. Should the new territories be opened or closed to slavery?
    >> Southerners argued that they had the right to take slaves into the new
    >> territories. Northerners disagreed. They opposed any further spread of
    >> slavery.
    >> The real question was this: did congress have the power to control or
    >> bar slavery in the territories? Until texas became a state, almost all
    >> national leaders seemed to accept the idea that congress did have this
    >> power. For fifty years, congress had passed resolutions and laws
    >> controlling slavery in united states territories. Northerners believed
    >> congress received the power from the constitution. Southern slave
    >> owners disagreed. They believed the power to control slavery remained
    >> with the states.
    >> There were some who thought the earlier Missouri compromise could be
    >> used to settle the issue of slavery in California, Oregon, and New
    >> Mexico. They proposed that the line of the Missouri compromise be
    >> pushed west, all the way to the pacific coast. Territory north of the
    >> line would be free of slavery. South of the line, slavery would be
    >> permitted. Everyone agreed that governments had to be organized in the
    >> territories. But there seemed to be no way to settle the issue of
    >> slavery. Then a senator from Delaware agreed to be chairman of a
    >> special committee on the question of slavery in the new territories.
    >> The senate committee included four Whigs and four Democrats. North and
    >> South were equally represented. Within six days, the committee had
    >> agreed on a compromise bill.
    >> GQ

Graphic Queen

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:20:06 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:

    >Graphic said:
    >> I am Indian asshole. I am half Apache. Got any other idiotic
    >> statements?
    >do you?

Just when I reply to your idiotic remarkes. Tit for Tat.

Joachim Feise

[email protected] wrote on 3/18/2004 15:20:

    > Graphic said:
    >
    >
    >>I am Indian asshole. I am half Apache. Got any other idiotic
    >>statements?
    >
    >
    > do you?

.:\:/:.
+-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
| PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
| FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
| | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
| Thank you, | ( (_) )
| Management | /`-vvv-'\
+-------------------+ / \
| | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
| | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
@x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
\||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
\||/ | | | jgs (______Y______)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
================================================== ================

Graphic Queen

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:56:36 -0800, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote on 3/18/2004 15:20:
    >> Graphic said:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I am Indian asshole. I am half Apache. Got any other idiotic
    >>>statements?
    >>
    >>
    >> do you?
    > .:\:/:.
    > +-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
    > | PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
    > | FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
    > | | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
    > | Thank you, | ( (_) )
    > | Management | /`-vvv-'\
    > +-------------------+ / \
    > | | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
    > | | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
    > @x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
    > \||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
    > \||/ | | | jgs (______Y______)
    >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    >================================================= =================

Good advice for the troll lovers. But I am not a troll. It seems that
whomever might disagree with any of you people then you label them a
troll. Not very original and in fact dumb since you don't even attempt
to care about the Constitution of this country and the laws for
immigration.

Thank you for playing though.

GQ

lairdside

Fair enough you are enitiled to your opinion - of course.

It was just a suggestion, unfortunately many people do not seem to be interested in debating a rational argument and I suspect you have met many people like this and realized that you were wasting your time?

Just one question. With regard to the ignorance of Mexican stereotyping of non Mexicans believe that I understand. To be frank I notice more than I let on....

But why lower yourself to their level?

lairdside

Successive governments seem to have been hell bent on screwing the people out of their rights.

IMHO the US has something very special. People still seem to be of the opinion that they HAVE rights. They don't seem to be generally aware though of just how much they have been and are being erroded.

If they don't watch out they'll end up like the UK

Perhaps as an immigrant raised without these rights I appeciate them more rather than taking them for granted.

I didn't see your distinction between immigrants. I must have missed it. I only saw the generalizations.

People need to be made aware IMHO and to stand up and be counted before it's too late. I pray that they do. I am also personally willing to do whatever I can, one of the main reasons I wish to become a Citizen.

The US is worth fighting for in more ways than one.

Graphic Queen

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 02:48:48 +0000, lairdside
<member5824@british_expats.com> wrote:

    >Originally posted by Graphic Queen
    >> On Thu, 18 Mar 2004
    >15:56:36 -0800, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>[email protected] wrote on 3/18/2004 15:20:
    >> >> Graphic
    >said:
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >>>I am Indian asshole.
    >I am half Apache. Got any other idiotic
    >> >>>statements?
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >> do you?
    >> >
    >:\:/:.
    >> > +-------------------+
    >:\:\:/:/:.
    >> > | PLEASE DO NOT |
    >:.:\:\:/:/:.:
    >> > | FEED THE TROLLS | :=.'
    >- - '.=:
    >> > | | '=(\ 9
    >9 /)='
    >> > | Thank you, | ( (_)
    >)
    >> > | Management | /`-vvv-
    >'\
    >> > +-------------------+ /
    >\
    >> > | | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\
    >\
    >> > | | @@@ /_// /^\
    >\\_\
    >> > @x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( )
    >)WW
    >> > \||||/ | | \| __\,,\
    >/,,/__
    >> > \||/ | | | jgs
    >(______Y______)
    >> >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\-
    >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    >> >=================================-
    >=================================
    >>
    >> Good advice for the troll
    >lovers. But I am not a troll. It seems that
    >> whomever might disagree
    >with any of you people then you label them a
    >> troll. Not very original
    >and in fact dumb since you don't even attempt
    >> to care about the
    >Constitution of this country and the laws for
    >> immigration.
    >>
    >> Thank
    >you for playing though.
    >>
    >> GQ
    >Successive governments seem
    >to have been hell bent on screwing the people out of their rights.
    >IMHO the US has something very special. People still seem to be of
    >the opinion that they HAVE rights. They don't seem to be generally
    >aware though of just how much they have been and are being erroded.

Couldn't agree more!!
    >If
    >they don't watch out they'll end up like the UK

Oh yes and very much sooner than later.
    >Perhaps as an
    >immigrant raised without these rights I appeciate them more rather than
    >taking them for granted.
    >I didn't see your distinction between
    >immigrants. I must have missed it. I only saw the generalizations.

Illegals are definitely different than LEGAL immigrants.
    >People need to be made aware IMHO and to stand up and be counted
    >before it's too late. I pray that they do. I am also personally willing
    >to do whatever I can, one of the main reasons I wish to become a
    >Citizen.
    >The US is worth fighting for in more ways than one.

Many of us belive that also. Welcome to the fight.

GQ