Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Jan 30th 2005, 8:55 am
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Hello everone
This is an interesting question, I suppose. I received great help from
the group when I married Anka in 1999. Yet, over time, it seems that
many of us live fairly "interesting," lives...lol
Things happen.
Here's the story. After about 2 years of marriage, just after we filed
our I-751 for permanent adjustment of status...we had a late mid-term
baby die on us. I understand that miscarriages happen, and usually
happen for good and sufficient reasons...but Anka could not see it
this way. She developed an idea that the D&C that was absolutely
medically necessary was in fact an abortion that I forced her to have.
Anka is really a small town girl from Romania and all this medical
stuff was really beyond her experiece...beyond her reality. She also
maybe came to believe that some kind of curse was involved in all of
this instead of normal biology.
Because of this and things being said that shouldn't be said, Anka
returned to Romania to heal, be with family and think this through.
Because I was hurting also, a divorce was filed though never
finalized. It is just sitting there.
Somehow the I-751 which was sent to the Calif Service Center got lost.
I was presuming that eventually it would arrive and, if we so decided,
we could reunite with her having and traveling on her permanent Green
Card that I somewhat naively thought would just magically arrive in
the mail.
It has taken me a number of months of calling CIS to finally get an
honest reply that there is no longer in the Cal Service Center our
I-751, and that regardless...Anka has been out of the country for
almost 2 years now, so any pending application is considered "Lapsed,"
or abandoned. Their advice is for me to just start over.
Which is not necessarily a bad option. But here is the problem.
I can finish up the divorce in less than a month, fly to Romania
sometime thereafter, marry Anka in a proper Romanian Wedding and I
should thereafter simply be able to insert the new marriage license in
an I-130 petition, do a direct consular filing in Bucharest, and in
about 3 days...we'll be back on the road to home.
But will it look odd having in the I-130 package our divorce decrees
be dated just before the new marriage? I have no problem with this,
nor does Anka, a proper Romanian wedding is something she has always
wanted.
But maybe there is some weird CIS rule that I am unaware of...like you
have to be divorced for a year or something before you re-marry.
In the alternative, she is still my wife, legally, and I suppose I
could just fly over and do a Direct Consular Filing of an I-130.
I suppose, for various and odd reasons, we would prefer the first
option.
But I thought it wise to get some good advice here first before taking
any concrete steps.
Anyone have any ideas on this?
Thanks a Lot,
Traveller
This is an interesting question, I suppose. I received great help from
the group when I married Anka in 1999. Yet, over time, it seems that
many of us live fairly "interesting," lives...lol
Things happen.
Here's the story. After about 2 years of marriage, just after we filed
our I-751 for permanent adjustment of status...we had a late mid-term
baby die on us. I understand that miscarriages happen, and usually
happen for good and sufficient reasons...but Anka could not see it
this way. She developed an idea that the D&C that was absolutely
medically necessary was in fact an abortion that I forced her to have.
Anka is really a small town girl from Romania and all this medical
stuff was really beyond her experiece...beyond her reality. She also
maybe came to believe that some kind of curse was involved in all of
this instead of normal biology.
Because of this and things being said that shouldn't be said, Anka
returned to Romania to heal, be with family and think this through.
Because I was hurting also, a divorce was filed though never
finalized. It is just sitting there.
Somehow the I-751 which was sent to the Calif Service Center got lost.
I was presuming that eventually it would arrive and, if we so decided,
we could reunite with her having and traveling on her permanent Green
Card that I somewhat naively thought would just magically arrive in
the mail.
It has taken me a number of months of calling CIS to finally get an
honest reply that there is no longer in the Cal Service Center our
I-751, and that regardless...Anka has been out of the country for
almost 2 years now, so any pending application is considered "Lapsed,"
or abandoned. Their advice is for me to just start over.
Which is not necessarily a bad option. But here is the problem.
I can finish up the divorce in less than a month, fly to Romania
sometime thereafter, marry Anka in a proper Romanian Wedding and I
should thereafter simply be able to insert the new marriage license in
an I-130 petition, do a direct consular filing in Bucharest, and in
about 3 days...we'll be back on the road to home.
But will it look odd having in the I-130 package our divorce decrees
be dated just before the new marriage? I have no problem with this,
nor does Anka, a proper Romanian wedding is something she has always
wanted.
But maybe there is some weird CIS rule that I am unaware of...like you
have to be divorced for a year or something before you re-marry.
In the alternative, she is still my wife, legally, and I suppose I
could just fly over and do a Direct Consular Filing of an I-130.
I suppose, for various and odd reasons, we would prefer the first
option.
But I thought it wise to get some good advice here first before taking
any concrete steps.
Anyone have any ideas on this?
Thanks a Lot,
Traveller
Jan 30th 2005, 3:45 pm
#2
Account Closed
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 16,266
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Originally Posted by Traveller
Hello everone
This is an interesting question, I suppose. I received great help from
the group when I married Anka in 1999. Yet, over time, it seems that
many of us live fairly "interesting," lives...lol
Things happen.
Here's the story. After about 2 years of marriage, just after we filed
our I-751 for permanent adjustment of status...we had a late mid-term
baby die on us. I understand that miscarriages happen, and usually
happen for good and sufficient reasons...but Anka could not see it
this way. She developed an idea that the D&C that was absolutely
medically necessary was in fact an abortion that I forced her to have.
Anka is really a small town girl from Romania and all this medical
stuff was really beyond her experiece...beyond her reality. She also
maybe came to believe that some kind of curse was involved in all of
this instead of normal biology.
Because of this and things being said that shouldn't be said, Anka
returned to Romania to heal, be with family and think this through.
Because I was hurting also, a divorce was filed though never
finalized. It is just sitting there.
Somehow the I-751 which was sent to the Calif Service Center got lost.
I was presuming that eventually it would arrive and, if we so decided,
we could reunite with her having and traveling on her permanent Green
Card that I somewhat naively thought would just magically arrive in
the mail.
It has taken me a number of months of calling CIS to finally get an
honest reply that there is no longer in the Cal Service Center our
I-751, and that regardless...Anka has been out of the country for
almost 2 years now, so any pending application is considered "Lapsed,"
or abandoned. Their advice is for me to just start over.
Which is not necessarily a bad option. But here is the problem.
I can finish up the divorce in less than a month, fly to Romania
sometime thereafter, marry Anka in a proper Romanian Wedding and I
should thereafter simply be able to insert the new marriage license in
an I-130 petition, do a direct consular filing in Bucharest, and in
about 3 days...we'll be back on the road to home.
But will it look odd having in the I-130 package our divorce decrees
be dated just before the new marriage? I have no problem with this,
nor does Anka, a proper Romanian wedding is something she has always
wanted.
But maybe there is some weird CIS rule that I am unaware of...like you
have to be divorced for a year or something before you re-marry.
In the alternative, she is still my wife, legally, and I suppose I
could just fly over and do a Direct Consular Filing of an I-130.
I suppose, for various and odd reasons, we would prefer the first
option.
But I thought it wise to get some good advice here first before taking
any concrete steps.
Anyone have any ideas on this?
Thanks a Lot,
Traveller
This is an interesting question, I suppose. I received great help from
the group when I married Anka in 1999. Yet, over time, it seems that
many of us live fairly "interesting," lives...lol
Things happen.
Here's the story. After about 2 years of marriage, just after we filed
our I-751 for permanent adjustment of status...we had a late mid-term
baby die on us. I understand that miscarriages happen, and usually
happen for good and sufficient reasons...but Anka could not see it
this way. She developed an idea that the D&C that was absolutely
medically necessary was in fact an abortion that I forced her to have.
Anka is really a small town girl from Romania and all this medical
stuff was really beyond her experiece...beyond her reality. She also
maybe came to believe that some kind of curse was involved in all of
this instead of normal biology.
Because of this and things being said that shouldn't be said, Anka
returned to Romania to heal, be with family and think this through.
Because I was hurting also, a divorce was filed though never
finalized. It is just sitting there.
Somehow the I-751 which was sent to the Calif Service Center got lost.
I was presuming that eventually it would arrive and, if we so decided,
we could reunite with her having and traveling on her permanent Green
Card that I somewhat naively thought would just magically arrive in
the mail.
It has taken me a number of months of calling CIS to finally get an
honest reply that there is no longer in the Cal Service Center our
I-751, and that regardless...Anka has been out of the country for
almost 2 years now, so any pending application is considered "Lapsed,"
or abandoned. Their advice is for me to just start over.
Which is not necessarily a bad option. But here is the problem.
I can finish up the divorce in less than a month, fly to Romania
sometime thereafter, marry Anka in a proper Romanian Wedding and I
should thereafter simply be able to insert the new marriage license in
an I-130 petition, do a direct consular filing in Bucharest, and in
about 3 days...we'll be back on the road to home.
But will it look odd having in the I-130 package our divorce decrees
be dated just before the new marriage? I have no problem with this,
nor does Anka, a proper Romanian wedding is something she has always
wanted.
But maybe there is some weird CIS rule that I am unaware of...like you
have to be divorced for a year or something before you re-marry.
In the alternative, she is still my wife, legally, and I suppose I
could just fly over and do a Direct Consular Filing of an I-130.
I suppose, for various and odd reasons, we would prefer the first
option.
But I thought it wise to get some good advice here first before taking
any concrete steps.
Anyone have any ideas on this?
Thanks a Lot,
Traveller
Why not? The words that come to mind are "Liz and Dick." It happens more often than you might realize.
Jan 30th 2005, 6:22 pm
#3
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 771
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Originally Posted by Folinskyinla
Hi:
Why not? The words that come to mind are "Liz and Dick." It happens more often than you might realize.
Why not? The words that come to mind are "Liz and Dick." It happens more often than you might realize.
I'd say - do not divorce, do DCF and this time she will get a permanent GC without the conditions.
Who knows -- if you divorce and remarry, she will then get a conditional card again and removal of conditions papers may get lost in the mail again - will you then have to do the filing over again?
Jan 30th 2005, 7:11 pm
#4
Concierge
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,391
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Why divorce and then remarry when you are still legally married? You can still do the DCF in Romania with the current marriage certificate. Don't understand if there is an emotional reason why you and might prefer the divorce and remarriage.
Originally Posted by Traveller
Hello everone
This is an interesting question, I suppose. I received great help from
the group when I married Anka in 1999. Yet, over time, it seems that
many of us live fairly "interesting," lives...lol
Things happen.
Here's the story. After about 2 years of marriage, just after we filed
our I-751 for permanent adjustment of status...we had a late mid-term
baby die on us. I understand that miscarriages happen, and usually
happen for good and sufficient reasons...but Anka could not see it
this way. She developed an idea that the D&C that was absolutely
medically necessary was in fact an abortion that I forced her to have.
Anka is really a small town girl from Romania and all this medical
stuff was really beyond her experiece...beyond her reality. She also
maybe came to believe that some kind of curse was involved in all of
this instead of normal biology.
Because of this and things being said that shouldn't be said, Anka
returned to Romania to heal, be with family and think this through.
Because I was hurting also, a divorce was filed though never
finalized. It is just sitting there.
Somehow the I-751 which was sent to the Calif Service Center got lost.
I was presuming that eventually it would arrive and, if we so decided,
we could reunite with her having and traveling on her permanent Green
Card that I somewhat naively thought would just magically arrive in
the mail.
It has taken me a number of months of calling CIS to finally get an
honest reply that there is no longer in the Cal Service Center our
I-751, and that regardless...Anka has been out of the country for
almost 2 years now, so any pending application is considered "Lapsed,"
or abandoned. Their advice is for me to just start over.
Which is not necessarily a bad option. But here is the problem.
I can finish up the divorce in less than a month, fly to Romania
sometime thereafter, marry Anka in a proper Romanian Wedding and I
should thereafter simply be able to insert the new marriage license in
an I-130 petition, do a direct consular filing in Bucharest, and in
about 3 days...we'll be back on the road to home.
But will it look odd having in the I-130 package our divorce decrees
be dated just before the new marriage? I have no problem with this,
nor does Anka, a proper Romanian wedding is something she has always
wanted.
But maybe there is some weird CIS rule that I am unaware of...like you
have to be divorced for a year or something before you re-marry.
In the alternative, she is still my wife, legally, and I suppose I
could just fly over and do a Direct Consular Filing of an I-130.
I suppose, for various and odd reasons, we would prefer the first
option.
But I thought it wise to get some good advice here first before taking
any concrete steps.
Anyone have any ideas on this?
Thanks a Lot,
Traveller
This is an interesting question, I suppose. I received great help from
the group when I married Anka in 1999. Yet, over time, it seems that
many of us live fairly "interesting," lives...lol
Things happen.
Here's the story. After about 2 years of marriage, just after we filed
our I-751 for permanent adjustment of status...we had a late mid-term
baby die on us. I understand that miscarriages happen, and usually
happen for good and sufficient reasons...but Anka could not see it
this way. She developed an idea that the D&C that was absolutely
medically necessary was in fact an abortion that I forced her to have.
Anka is really a small town girl from Romania and all this medical
stuff was really beyond her experiece...beyond her reality. She also
maybe came to believe that some kind of curse was involved in all of
this instead of normal biology.
Because of this and things being said that shouldn't be said, Anka
returned to Romania to heal, be with family and think this through.
Because I was hurting also, a divorce was filed though never
finalized. It is just sitting there.
Somehow the I-751 which was sent to the Calif Service Center got lost.
I was presuming that eventually it would arrive and, if we so decided,
we could reunite with her having and traveling on her permanent Green
Card that I somewhat naively thought would just magically arrive in
the mail.
It has taken me a number of months of calling CIS to finally get an
honest reply that there is no longer in the Cal Service Center our
I-751, and that regardless...Anka has been out of the country for
almost 2 years now, so any pending application is considered "Lapsed,"
or abandoned. Their advice is for me to just start over.
Which is not necessarily a bad option. But here is the problem.
I can finish up the divorce in less than a month, fly to Romania
sometime thereafter, marry Anka in a proper Romanian Wedding and I
should thereafter simply be able to insert the new marriage license in
an I-130 petition, do a direct consular filing in Bucharest, and in
about 3 days...we'll be back on the road to home.
But will it look odd having in the I-130 package our divorce decrees
be dated just before the new marriage? I have no problem with this,
nor does Anka, a proper Romanian wedding is something she has always
wanted.
But maybe there is some weird CIS rule that I am unaware of...like you
have to be divorced for a year or something before you re-marry.
In the alternative, she is still my wife, legally, and I suppose I
could just fly over and do a Direct Consular Filing of an I-130.
I suppose, for various and odd reasons, we would prefer the first
option.
But I thought it wise to get some good advice here first before taking
any concrete steps.
Anyone have any ideas on this?
Thanks a Lot,
Traveller
Jan 30th 2005, 8:56 pm
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Gosh, I really, Really appreciate the responses.
Alt. visa can really be fabulous, but I think I also owe a duty back
to the group...to be as honest as possible, or at least offer enough
data that people at least have a sense of what is going on.
This was a volatile marriage. Maybe the needs and desires and wants
were too great on each of our parts....that was lots of passion, in
feelings, and this is both good and bad. I suppose the idea is that
when you love a lot, you also and maybe almost automatically, you can
hate the other party a lot also.
This is in my mind a high risk venture. We tried it once and it
failed. I don't mind trying again. When people ask me why do this
again, I say, I miss her laughter, and I think that's true, that's my
reason.
But, I recognize that this may fail....again. There are no guarantees
in life and I don't expect any. When Anka went back home to Romania in
late 2002, she honestly, I think, expected me to leave my career and
the United States and live with her in Romania. This is what she
wanted...this I couldn't do.
Because this is a high risk marriage, I think I want my legal
liability to be as small as possible. This may seem churlish to many
of you...but I'm trying to be smart. Anka and I are approaching, in
legal terms, a moderate to long term marriage. This significantly
increases my potential liability for spousal support, long term.
If the marriage were to fail again, and we just went our separate
ways, this would be unhappy but not the end of the world...but were I
forced to support Anka for a significant period of time....I would be
more than unhappy, this would be unjust.
Were we to divorce and re-marry, this starts the clock for the term of
the marriage all over again. Anka understands this and the idea that
it would be best for the marriage that I'm not, even subconsciously,
looking back over my shoulder.
I can see people raising their eyebrows over this. But I'm just being
straight with you. I have no concern over my I-864 obligation but the
idea of long term spousal support does make me a little crazy. Even
reading these past few paragraphs, I know I look bad, even to myself
by thinking this way...but again, I'm just being honest with all of
you.
So the question remains:
How odd does this look to Consular Officer reviewing our new I-130
application?
There certainly can't be any question that we know one another and
know each other very well. My excuse would be that I was told by CIS,
and I was, to just start all over again. Which is what I am
doing...lol
However, if the fine people in this group were to feel that a divorce
and then shortly thereafter a re-marraige to the same woman would in
some way cause the new I-130 to be rejected...then I would take my
chances and forego finalizing the divorce.
You see, there are two roads...(smile)
I would again appreciate greatly any thoughts anyone might have on
this situation. (I should add that I have no problem with re-doing all
the paperwork and eventually the I-751 again. It's just paperwork.).
Best Wishes to Everyone,
Traveller
Alt. visa can really be fabulous, but I think I also owe a duty back
to the group...to be as honest as possible, or at least offer enough
data that people at least have a sense of what is going on.
This was a volatile marriage. Maybe the needs and desires and wants
were too great on each of our parts....that was lots of passion, in
feelings, and this is both good and bad. I suppose the idea is that
when you love a lot, you also and maybe almost automatically, you can
hate the other party a lot also.
This is in my mind a high risk venture. We tried it once and it
failed. I don't mind trying again. When people ask me why do this
again, I say, I miss her laughter, and I think that's true, that's my
reason.
But, I recognize that this may fail....again. There are no guarantees
in life and I don't expect any. When Anka went back home to Romania in
late 2002, she honestly, I think, expected me to leave my career and
the United States and live with her in Romania. This is what she
wanted...this I couldn't do.
Because this is a high risk marriage, I think I want my legal
liability to be as small as possible. This may seem churlish to many
of you...but I'm trying to be smart. Anka and I are approaching, in
legal terms, a moderate to long term marriage. This significantly
increases my potential liability for spousal support, long term.
If the marriage were to fail again, and we just went our separate
ways, this would be unhappy but not the end of the world...but were I
forced to support Anka for a significant period of time....I would be
more than unhappy, this would be unjust.
Were we to divorce and re-marry, this starts the clock for the term of
the marriage all over again. Anka understands this and the idea that
it would be best for the marriage that I'm not, even subconsciously,
looking back over my shoulder.
I can see people raising their eyebrows over this. But I'm just being
straight with you. I have no concern over my I-864 obligation but the
idea of long term spousal support does make me a little crazy. Even
reading these past few paragraphs, I know I look bad, even to myself
by thinking this way...but again, I'm just being honest with all of
you.
So the question remains:
How odd does this look to Consular Officer reviewing our new I-130
application?
There certainly can't be any question that we know one another and
know each other very well. My excuse would be that I was told by CIS,
and I was, to just start all over again. Which is what I am
doing...lol
However, if the fine people in this group were to feel that a divorce
and then shortly thereafter a re-marraige to the same woman would in
some way cause the new I-130 to be rejected...then I would take my
chances and forego finalizing the divorce.
You see, there are two roads...(smile)
I would again appreciate greatly any thoughts anyone might have on
this situation. (I should add that I have no problem with re-doing all
the paperwork and eventually the I-751 again. It's just paperwork.).
Best Wishes to Everyone,
Traveller
Jan 30th 2005, 9:18 pm
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Traveller wrote:
> This was a volatile marriage. Maybe the needs and desires and wants
> were too great on each of our parts....that was lots of passion, in
> feelings, and this is both good and bad. I suppose the idea is that
> when you love a lot, you also and maybe almost automatically, you can
> hate the other party a lot also.
Bull! When you love a lot you love a lot and get loved a lot. Where did
you get the idea that a relationship with a lot of love has to somehow
have some corresponding lot of hate? Ridiculous!
> This is in my mind a high risk venture. We tried it once and it
> failed. I don't mind trying again. When people ask me why do this
> again, I say, I miss her laughter, and I think that's true, that's my
> reason.
Tell her to record her laughter and send you a tape!
> But, I recognize that this may fail....again. There are no guarantees
> in life and I don't expect any.
I'll give you a guarantee - if you do remarry her and bring her here
again I guarantee you it will fail again.
> When Anka went back home to Romania in late 2002, she honestly, I
> think, expected me to leave my career and
> the United States and live with her in Romania. This is what she
> wanted...this I couldn't do.
How do you know? Did she ask you to move to Romania? If see really did
want you to move to Romania and you refused then don't you think she'd
be a little bit resentful?
> Because this is a high risk marriage, I think I want my legal
> liability to be as small as possible. This may seem churlish to many
> of you...but I'm trying to be smart. Anka and I are approaching, in
> legal terms, a moderate to long term marriage. This significantly
> increases my potential liability for spousal support, long term.
You should divorce her and if you wish to be foolish and get involved
with her again you should have a huge prenup.
> If the marriage were to fail again, and we just went our separate
> ways, this would be unhappy but not the end of the world...but were I
> forced to support Anka for a significant period of time....I would be
> more than unhappy, this would be unjust.
Really? How so? Right now you can simply divorce and walk away from it.
She's in Romania and won't be collecting any spousal support from you.
If you were foolish enough to get married to her again or just brought
her over here then you would stand a huge risk of having to pay spousal
support.
> Were we to divorce and re-marry, this starts the clock for the term of
> the marriage all over again. Anka understands this and the idea that
> it would be best for the marriage that I'm not, even subconsciously,
> looking back over my shoulder.
That would be a good reason to divorce and get a prenup before entering
into a marriage where you stand to lose financially with somebody who
has already proven that she's not good marriage material. Of course you
would be a fool to consider marrying somebody like that anyway.
> I can see people raising their eyebrows over this. But I'm just being
> straight with you. I have no concern over my I-864 obligation but the
> idea of long term spousal support does make me a little crazy. Even
> reading these past few paragraphs, I know I look bad, even to myself
> by thinking this way...but again, I'm just being honest with all of you.
In most states, in order to be indebted to long term spousal support
you'll have to be married for a long time - like 10 years. You haven't
been married 10 years so the chances on having to pay long term spousal
support are slim. Plus this lady has already ditched you and returned to
another country. If your 2nd marriage failed again (and it will) she
would probably likewise return and I doubt you'd be forced into paying
any more spousal support (but I wouldn't bank on her returning).
Contrastedly, I-864 can easily last for 10 or more years.
> So the question remains:
> How odd does this look to Consular Officer reviewing our new I-130
> application?
Any time you remarry the same person it looks odd to just about anybody.
> There certainly can't be any question that we know one another and
> know each other very well.
I'd vote for the case that you don't even know each other fairly well
right now.
> My excuse would be that I was told by CIS, and I was, to just start
> all over again. Which is what I am doing...lol
Whenever you are looking for excuses as you are here you are doing bad
things (IMHO).
> However, if the fine people in this group were to feel that a divorce
> and then shortly thereafter a re-marraige to the same woman would in
> some way cause the new I-130 to be rejected...then I would take my
> chances and forego finalizing the divorce.
> You see, there are two roads...(smile)
There are more roads than that but I think your mind is already closed
to any other courses...
> I would again appreciate greatly any thoughts anyone might have on
> this situation.
Remember, you did say anyone...
> (I should add that I have no problem with re-doing all the paperwork
> and eventually the I-751 again. It's just paperwork.).
--
The cost of living hasn't affected its popularity.
> This was a volatile marriage. Maybe the needs and desires and wants
> were too great on each of our parts....that was lots of passion, in
> feelings, and this is both good and bad. I suppose the idea is that
> when you love a lot, you also and maybe almost automatically, you can
> hate the other party a lot also.
Bull! When you love a lot you love a lot and get loved a lot. Where did
you get the idea that a relationship with a lot of love has to somehow
have some corresponding lot of hate? Ridiculous!
> This is in my mind a high risk venture. We tried it once and it
> failed. I don't mind trying again. When people ask me why do this
> again, I say, I miss her laughter, and I think that's true, that's my
> reason.
Tell her to record her laughter and send you a tape!
> But, I recognize that this may fail....again. There are no guarantees
> in life and I don't expect any.
I'll give you a guarantee - if you do remarry her and bring her here
again I guarantee you it will fail again.
> When Anka went back home to Romania in late 2002, she honestly, I
> think, expected me to leave my career and
> the United States and live with her in Romania. This is what she
> wanted...this I couldn't do.
How do you know? Did she ask you to move to Romania? If see really did
want you to move to Romania and you refused then don't you think she'd
be a little bit resentful?
> Because this is a high risk marriage, I think I want my legal
> liability to be as small as possible. This may seem churlish to many
> of you...but I'm trying to be smart. Anka and I are approaching, in
> legal terms, a moderate to long term marriage. This significantly
> increases my potential liability for spousal support, long term.
You should divorce her and if you wish to be foolish and get involved
with her again you should have a huge prenup.
> If the marriage were to fail again, and we just went our separate
> ways, this would be unhappy but not the end of the world...but were I
> forced to support Anka for a significant period of time....I would be
> more than unhappy, this would be unjust.
Really? How so? Right now you can simply divorce and walk away from it.
She's in Romania and won't be collecting any spousal support from you.
If you were foolish enough to get married to her again or just brought
her over here then you would stand a huge risk of having to pay spousal
support.
> Were we to divorce and re-marry, this starts the clock for the term of
> the marriage all over again. Anka understands this and the idea that
> it would be best for the marriage that I'm not, even subconsciously,
> looking back over my shoulder.
That would be a good reason to divorce and get a prenup before entering
into a marriage where you stand to lose financially with somebody who
has already proven that she's not good marriage material. Of course you
would be a fool to consider marrying somebody like that anyway.
> I can see people raising their eyebrows over this. But I'm just being
> straight with you. I have no concern over my I-864 obligation but the
> idea of long term spousal support does make me a little crazy. Even
> reading these past few paragraphs, I know I look bad, even to myself
> by thinking this way...but again, I'm just being honest with all of you.
In most states, in order to be indebted to long term spousal support
you'll have to be married for a long time - like 10 years. You haven't
been married 10 years so the chances on having to pay long term spousal
support are slim. Plus this lady has already ditched you and returned to
another country. If your 2nd marriage failed again (and it will) she
would probably likewise return and I doubt you'd be forced into paying
any more spousal support (but I wouldn't bank on her returning).
Contrastedly, I-864 can easily last for 10 or more years.
> So the question remains:
> How odd does this look to Consular Officer reviewing our new I-130
> application?
Any time you remarry the same person it looks odd to just about anybody.
> There certainly can't be any question that we know one another and
> know each other very well.
I'd vote for the case that you don't even know each other fairly well
right now.
> My excuse would be that I was told by CIS, and I was, to just start
> all over again. Which is what I am doing...lol
Whenever you are looking for excuses as you are here you are doing bad
things (IMHO).
> However, if the fine people in this group were to feel that a divorce
> and then shortly thereafter a re-marraige to the same woman would in
> some way cause the new I-130 to be rejected...then I would take my
> chances and forego finalizing the divorce.
> You see, there are two roads...(smile)
There are more roads than that but I think your mind is already closed
to any other courses...
> I would again appreciate greatly any thoughts anyone might have on
> this situation.
Remember, you did say anyone...
> (I should add that I have no problem with re-doing all the paperwork
> and eventually the I-751 again. It's just paperwork.).
--
The cost of living hasn't affected its popularity.
Jan 30th 2005, 10:16 pm
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:18:14 GMT, Andrew DeFaria <[email protected]>
wrote:
Well, this was a little tough on your part, Andrew, but conversations
can go this way. That's life.
>Bull! When you love a lot you love a lot and get loved a lot. Where did
>you get the idea that a relationship with a lot of love has to somehow
>have some corresponding lot of hate? Ridiculous!
The ways of the human heart are complex. Feelings ebb and flow...and
there are things that are just inexplicable. Stong feelings
are...stong feelings, they can go either way, IMHO.
>I'll give you a guarantee - if you do remarry her and bring her here
>again I guarantee you it will fail again.
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I give no one, unlike
you, guarentees on anything under our fair sun.
>> When Anka went back home to Romania in late 2002, she honestly, I
>> think, expected me to leave my career and
>> the United States and live with her in Romania. This is what she
>> wanted...this I couldn't do.
>How do you know? Did she ask you to move to Romania? If see really did
>want you to move to Romania and you refused then don't you think she'd
>be a little bit resentful?
Of course she asked me, and has asked me repeated. She didn't like the
United States, the adjustment was very difficult for her. Romania, by
contrast, is not difficult for me. Some people are good at this, some
people are not. Just the way it is.
>You should divorce her and if you wish to be foolish and get involved
>with her again you should have a huge prenup.
Nope, don't need no pre-nup. I don't like pre-nups. First, in
California you CAN NOT pre-nup away spousal support obligations.
Second, seperate property in CA remains seperate unless badly
comingled.
In my situation a pre-nup doesn't work and isn't helpful.
>If you were foolish enough to get married to her again or just brought
>her over here then you would stand a huge risk of having to pay spousal
>support.
No, not actually. I comment only because the purpose of the group is
to share information, good information. The general rule in CA is half
the term of the marriage. Were we to remain married for an additional
two years, then we'd be at the 8 year mark with approximately 4 years
of liability.
On a new marraige of 2 years duration, this would be a short term
marraige with little, if any, liability. (Though maybe some).
>In most states, in order to be indebted to long term spousal support
>you'll have to be married for a long time - like 10 years.
Please see above.
>Contrastedly, I-864 can easily last for 10 or more years.
No one, ever, to my knowledge has ever had to pay a dime under their
I-864 obligation. It's been a while since I've looked into this and
I'm willing to stand corrected....but I think that this is still the
case.
>Whenever you are looking for excuses as you are here you are doing bad
>things (IMHO).
All of human life is just one huge excuse...for this or that. This is
the way human beings are, seeking a way through, what is for all of
us, a terminable existence.
>Remember, you did say anyone...
No, I don't mind your opinion, Andrew. However, you've given only an
opinion. In the larger context that I posited the question, I'm not
sure how helpful it was.
But I do, of course, wish you well.
Be Good
Traveller
wrote:
Well, this was a little tough on your part, Andrew, but conversations
can go this way. That's life.
>Bull! When you love a lot you love a lot and get loved a lot. Where did
>you get the idea that a relationship with a lot of love has to somehow
>have some corresponding lot of hate? Ridiculous!
The ways of the human heart are complex. Feelings ebb and flow...and
there are things that are just inexplicable. Stong feelings
are...stong feelings, they can go either way, IMHO.
>I'll give you a guarantee - if you do remarry her and bring her here
>again I guarantee you it will fail again.
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I give no one, unlike
you, guarentees on anything under our fair sun.
>> When Anka went back home to Romania in late 2002, she honestly, I
>> think, expected me to leave my career and
>> the United States and live with her in Romania. This is what she
>> wanted...this I couldn't do.
>How do you know? Did she ask you to move to Romania? If see really did
>want you to move to Romania and you refused then don't you think she'd
>be a little bit resentful?
Of course she asked me, and has asked me repeated. She didn't like the
United States, the adjustment was very difficult for her. Romania, by
contrast, is not difficult for me. Some people are good at this, some
people are not. Just the way it is.
>You should divorce her and if you wish to be foolish and get involved
>with her again you should have a huge prenup.
Nope, don't need no pre-nup. I don't like pre-nups. First, in
California you CAN NOT pre-nup away spousal support obligations.
Second, seperate property in CA remains seperate unless badly
comingled.
In my situation a pre-nup doesn't work and isn't helpful.
>If you were foolish enough to get married to her again or just brought
>her over here then you would stand a huge risk of having to pay spousal
>support.
No, not actually. I comment only because the purpose of the group is
to share information, good information. The general rule in CA is half
the term of the marriage. Were we to remain married for an additional
two years, then we'd be at the 8 year mark with approximately 4 years
of liability.
On a new marraige of 2 years duration, this would be a short term
marraige with little, if any, liability. (Though maybe some).
>In most states, in order to be indebted to long term spousal support
>you'll have to be married for a long time - like 10 years.
Please see above.
>Contrastedly, I-864 can easily last for 10 or more years.
No one, ever, to my knowledge has ever had to pay a dime under their
I-864 obligation. It's been a while since I've looked into this and
I'm willing to stand corrected....but I think that this is still the
case.
>Whenever you are looking for excuses as you are here you are doing bad
>things (IMHO).
All of human life is just one huge excuse...for this or that. This is
the way human beings are, seeking a way through, what is for all of
us, a terminable existence.
>Remember, you did say anyone...
No, I don't mind your opinion, Andrew. However, you've given only an
opinion. In the larger context that I posited the question, I'm not
sure how helpful it was.
But I do, of course, wish you well.
Be Good
Traveller
Jan 31st 2005, 2:51 am
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Folinskyinla wrote:
>>Hello everone
>>This is an interesting question, I suppose. I received great help from
>>the group when I married Anka in 1999. Yet, over time, it seems that
>>many of us live fairly "interesting," lives...lol
>>Things happen.
>>Here's the story. After about 2 years of marriage, just after we filed
>>our I-751 for permanent adjustment of status...we had a late mid-term
>>baby die on us. I understand that miscarriages happen, and usually
>>happen for good and sufficient reasons...but Anka could not see it
>>this way. She developed an idea that the D&C that was absolutely
>>medically necessary was in fact an abortion that I forced her to have.
>>Anka is really a small town girl from Romania and all this medical
>>stuff was really beyond her experiece...beyond her reality. She also
>>maybe came to believe that some kind of curse was involved in all of
>>this instead of normal biology.
>>Because of this and things being said that shouldn't be said, Anka
>>returned to Romania to heal, be with family and think this through.
>>Because I was hurting also, a divorce was filed though never
>>finalized. It is just sitting there.
>>Somehow the I-751 which was sent to the Calif Service Center got lost.
>>I was presuming that eventually it would arrive and, if we so decided,
>>we could reunite with her having and traveling on her permanent Green
>>Card that I somewhat naively thought would just magically arrive in
>>the mail.
>>It has taken me a number of months of calling CIS to finally get an
>>honest reply that there is no longer in the Cal Service Center our
>>I-751, and that regardless...Anka has been out of the country for
>>almost 2 years now, so any pending application is considered "Lapsed,"
>>or abandoned. Their advice is for me to just start over.
>>Which is not necessarily a bad option. But here is the problem.
>>I can finish up the divorce in less than a month, fly to Romania
>>sometime thereafter, marry Anka in a proper Romanian Wedding and I
>>should thereafter simply be able to insert the new marriage license in
>>an I-130 petition, do a direct consular filing in Bucharest, and in
>>about 3 days...we'll be back on the road to home.
>>But will it look odd having in the I-130 package our divorce decrees
>>be dated just before the new marriage? I have no problem with this,
>>nor does Anka, a proper Romanian wedding is something she has always
>>wanted.
>>But maybe there is some weird CIS rule that I am unaware of...like you
>>have to be divorced for a year or something before you re-marry.
>>In the alternative, she is still my wife, legally, and I suppose I
>>could just fly over and do a Direct Consular Filing of an I-130.
>>I suppose, for various and odd reasons, we would prefer the first
>>option.
>>But I thought it wise to get some good advice here first before taking
>>any concrete steps.
>>Anyone have any ideas on this?
>>Thanks a Lot,
>>Traveller
>
>
> Hi:
>
> Why not? The words that come to mind are "Liz and Dick." It happens
> more often than you might realize.
>
Before I read the second post, I would have agreed with Rete -- why
divorce since you're already married.
Now I think the answer is more complicated, and as the OP recognizes,
involves many personal factors apart from the immigration issues.
Speaking strictly on the legal side, I do think that the divorce and the
remarriage potentially raises sham marriage issues. And I do not think
that the consul will look kindly on what would be characterized as a
"strategic divorce" to protect you on the spousal support side. (There
is actually a note in the FAM about sham divorces, where people divorce
to improve their immigration status -- this probably won't apply in your
case because I can't see any immigration benefit to the divorce. But I
do see a potential that the consul thinks you really did intend to
divorce but are now remarrying to do someone a favor, which starts to
raise sham marriage flags.)
There is no one right answer in this circumstance; I think you must
assess the personal side of things. But I do think that there may be
immigration consequences to the divorce and remarriage option, and you
should be aware of these possibilities in making your decisions.
--
Above intended as general commentary, not specific legal
advice. Your mileage may vary.
================================================== =============
Jonathan McNeil Wong Voice: 510-451-0544
Donahue, Gallagher Woods LLP Facsimile: 510-832-1486
P.O. Box 12979 http://www.donahue.com
Oakland, CA 94604-2979 E-mail: [email protected]
================================================== =============
>>Hello everone
>>This is an interesting question, I suppose. I received great help from
>>the group when I married Anka in 1999. Yet, over time, it seems that
>>many of us live fairly "interesting," lives...lol
>>Things happen.
>>Here's the story. After about 2 years of marriage, just after we filed
>>our I-751 for permanent adjustment of status...we had a late mid-term
>>baby die on us. I understand that miscarriages happen, and usually
>>happen for good and sufficient reasons...but Anka could not see it
>>this way. She developed an idea that the D&C that was absolutely
>>medically necessary was in fact an abortion that I forced her to have.
>>Anka is really a small town girl from Romania and all this medical
>>stuff was really beyond her experiece...beyond her reality. She also
>>maybe came to believe that some kind of curse was involved in all of
>>this instead of normal biology.
>>Because of this and things being said that shouldn't be said, Anka
>>returned to Romania to heal, be with family and think this through.
>>Because I was hurting also, a divorce was filed though never
>>finalized. It is just sitting there.
>>Somehow the I-751 which was sent to the Calif Service Center got lost.
>>I was presuming that eventually it would arrive and, if we so decided,
>>we could reunite with her having and traveling on her permanent Green
>>Card that I somewhat naively thought would just magically arrive in
>>the mail.
>>It has taken me a number of months of calling CIS to finally get an
>>honest reply that there is no longer in the Cal Service Center our
>>I-751, and that regardless...Anka has been out of the country for
>>almost 2 years now, so any pending application is considered "Lapsed,"
>>or abandoned. Their advice is for me to just start over.
>>Which is not necessarily a bad option. But here is the problem.
>>I can finish up the divorce in less than a month, fly to Romania
>>sometime thereafter, marry Anka in a proper Romanian Wedding and I
>>should thereafter simply be able to insert the new marriage license in
>>an I-130 petition, do a direct consular filing in Bucharest, and in
>>about 3 days...we'll be back on the road to home.
>>But will it look odd having in the I-130 package our divorce decrees
>>be dated just before the new marriage? I have no problem with this,
>>nor does Anka, a proper Romanian wedding is something she has always
>>wanted.
>>But maybe there is some weird CIS rule that I am unaware of...like you
>>have to be divorced for a year or something before you re-marry.
>>In the alternative, she is still my wife, legally, and I suppose I
>>could just fly over and do a Direct Consular Filing of an I-130.
>>I suppose, for various and odd reasons, we would prefer the first
>>option.
>>But I thought it wise to get some good advice here first before taking
>>any concrete steps.
>>Anyone have any ideas on this?
>>Thanks a Lot,
>>Traveller
>
>
> Hi:
>
> Why not? The words that come to mind are "Liz and Dick." It happens
> more often than you might realize.
>
Before I read the second post, I would have agreed with Rete -- why
divorce since you're already married.
Now I think the answer is more complicated, and as the OP recognizes,
involves many personal factors apart from the immigration issues.
Speaking strictly on the legal side, I do think that the divorce and the
remarriage potentially raises sham marriage issues. And I do not think
that the consul will look kindly on what would be characterized as a
"strategic divorce" to protect you on the spousal support side. (There
is actually a note in the FAM about sham divorces, where people divorce
to improve their immigration status -- this probably won't apply in your
case because I can't see any immigration benefit to the divorce. But I
do see a potential that the consul thinks you really did intend to
divorce but are now remarrying to do someone a favor, which starts to
raise sham marriage flags.)
There is no one right answer in this circumstance; I think you must
assess the personal side of things. But I do think that there may be
immigration consequences to the divorce and remarriage option, and you
should be aware of these possibilities in making your decisions.
--
Above intended as general commentary, not specific legal
advice. Your mileage may vary.
================================================== =============
Jonathan McNeil Wong Voice: 510-451-0544
Donahue, Gallagher Woods LLP Facsimile: 510-832-1486
P.O. Box 12979 http://www.donahue.com
Oakland, CA 94604-2979 E-mail: [email protected]
================================================== =============
Jan 31st 2005, 5:04 am
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Dearest Jonathan:
Thank you for the interesting response. I really appreciate this.
Sometimes issues lurk in the back of your mind and it is necessary to
have these things pointed out.
After the Andrew carousel below, my head is spinning a bit, but I will
try shake myself clear of that and...well, of course for the benefit
of myself, but also for everyone in the group, let us try to
deconstruct this a little. I'm not being argumentive, I'm trying to
understand.
>Speaking strictly on the legal side, I do think that the divorce and the
>remarriage potentially raises sham marriage issues.
It is maybe this potentiality that concerns me. Personally, I don't
see it because neither the first nor the second proposed marriage
would be a sham in the sense that I understand the word. Even as used
by the CIS.
It is a real marriage by two people who will live together, share the
joys and difficulties of building a life together. But there are
problems, as there are in everyone's life, (the baby issue is very
important to Anka, while I'm ok with it either way. Medically, I just
happen to know much better than her that this is going to be very
difficult and problematic. I've come to grips with this, I am not sure
that she, or any woman for that matter, can just give up on the issue
of motherhood without....major complications and stresses on any
marriage. Maybe you'd have to have been there to completely
understand. I've been there and not even I, as smart as I am, can
fathom the deepness of this...need (?) in the feminine psyche. I
simply don't know how this will play out over time. I don't think
anyone can. If I could have some reasonable assurance of a child being
born, I would't worry. But that is not the case, and this remains the
wild card. Sometimes you can know too much {raised eyebrows}).
> And I do not think
>that the consul will look kindly on what would be characterized as a
>"strategic divorce" to protect you on the spousal support side.
Not that I would ever cop to this...lol...under any circumstances. How
would the CO ever come to see the situation in this light?
>But I
>do see a potential that the consul thinks you really did intend to
>divorce but are now remarrying to do someone a favor, which starts to
>raise sham marriage flags.)
Hummmm...that's interesting. It is something that I would never have
thought of, thanks for pointing this out. Because the marriage is
Real, I suppose that this idea was beyond my field of view.
My counter argument would be simply that I did what the CIS
recommended and started over...completely. This is without a doubt a
bona fide marriage.
But the fact that a divorce was filed in late 2002 and completed just
before a new marriage and filing of a new I-130, seen in this light,
would be a risk.
I just don't know how significant a risk this would be in the face of
us being together and...validly married.
A curious thought...if an I-130 is turned down, can you refile in say
6 months or maybe a year? Just a thought and maybe you know the
answer.
>There is no one right answer in this circumstance;
On this we agree. I have a sincere appreciation of the complexity of
human interaction, or, as I like to phrase it, humans just being
human, that's what they are.
>I think you must
>assess the personal side of things.
There are duties and obligations. We do seem to love one another, the
years come and the years go, but we remain essentially tied
together...maybe forever, who knows.
I'm happy enough without her and happy enough with her, but then maybe
I just tend to be a happy person. After all the years that we've been
doing this in one fashion or another, I don't expect ecstasy
anymore...but a gentle sense of contentment would be nice. (smile)
> But I do think that there may be
>immigration consequences to the divorce and remarriage option, and you
>should be aware of these possibilities in making your decisions.
I truly thank you for the time you took to think this through. And
force me to think clearly also. Should you or anyone else have a
thought, I would appreciate hearing them.
Thanks so much again,
Best Wishes,
Traveller
Thank you for the interesting response. I really appreciate this.
Sometimes issues lurk in the back of your mind and it is necessary to
have these things pointed out.
After the Andrew carousel below, my head is spinning a bit, but I will
try shake myself clear of that and...well, of course for the benefit
of myself, but also for everyone in the group, let us try to
deconstruct this a little. I'm not being argumentive, I'm trying to
understand.
>Speaking strictly on the legal side, I do think that the divorce and the
>remarriage potentially raises sham marriage issues.
It is maybe this potentiality that concerns me. Personally, I don't
see it because neither the first nor the second proposed marriage
would be a sham in the sense that I understand the word. Even as used
by the CIS.
It is a real marriage by two people who will live together, share the
joys and difficulties of building a life together. But there are
problems, as there are in everyone's life, (the baby issue is very
important to Anka, while I'm ok with it either way. Medically, I just
happen to know much better than her that this is going to be very
difficult and problematic. I've come to grips with this, I am not sure
that she, or any woman for that matter, can just give up on the issue
of motherhood without....major complications and stresses on any
marriage. Maybe you'd have to have been there to completely
understand. I've been there and not even I, as smart as I am, can
fathom the deepness of this...need (?) in the feminine psyche. I
simply don't know how this will play out over time. I don't think
anyone can. If I could have some reasonable assurance of a child being
born, I would't worry. But that is not the case, and this remains the
wild card. Sometimes you can know too much {raised eyebrows}).
> And I do not think
>that the consul will look kindly on what would be characterized as a
>"strategic divorce" to protect you on the spousal support side.
Not that I would ever cop to this...lol...under any circumstances. How
would the CO ever come to see the situation in this light?
>But I
>do see a potential that the consul thinks you really did intend to
>divorce but are now remarrying to do someone a favor, which starts to
>raise sham marriage flags.)
Hummmm...that's interesting. It is something that I would never have
thought of, thanks for pointing this out. Because the marriage is
Real, I suppose that this idea was beyond my field of view.
My counter argument would be simply that I did what the CIS
recommended and started over...completely. This is without a doubt a
bona fide marriage.
But the fact that a divorce was filed in late 2002 and completed just
before a new marriage and filing of a new I-130, seen in this light,
would be a risk.
I just don't know how significant a risk this would be in the face of
us being together and...validly married.
A curious thought...if an I-130 is turned down, can you refile in say
6 months or maybe a year? Just a thought and maybe you know the
answer.
>There is no one right answer in this circumstance;
On this we agree. I have a sincere appreciation of the complexity of
human interaction, or, as I like to phrase it, humans just being
human, that's what they are.
>I think you must
>assess the personal side of things.
There are duties and obligations. We do seem to love one another, the
years come and the years go, but we remain essentially tied
together...maybe forever, who knows.
I'm happy enough without her and happy enough with her, but then maybe
I just tend to be a happy person. After all the years that we've been
doing this in one fashion or another, I don't expect ecstasy
anymore...but a gentle sense of contentment would be nice. (smile)
> But I do think that there may be
>immigration consequences to the divorce and remarriage option, and you
>should be aware of these possibilities in making your decisions.
I truly thank you for the time you took to think this through. And
force me to think clearly also. Should you or anyone else have a
thought, I would appreciate hearing them.
Thanks so much again,
Best Wishes,
Traveller
Jan 31st 2005, 6:16 am
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Traveller wrote:
>
> Dearest Jonathan:
>
> Thank you for the interesting response. I really appreciate this.
> Sometimes issues lurk in the back of your mind and it is necessary to
> have these things pointed out.
>
> After the Andrew carousel below, my head is spinning a bit, but I will
> try shake myself clear of that and...well, of course for the benefit
> of myself, but also for everyone in the group, let us try to
> deconstruct this a little. I'm not being argumentive, I'm trying to
> understand.
Me too.
>
>
>>Speaking strictly on the legal side, I do think that the divorce and the
>>remarriage potentially raises sham marriage issues.
>
>
> It is maybe this potentiality that concerns me. Personally, I don't
> see it because neither the first nor the second proposed marriage
> would be a sham in the sense that I understand the word. Even as used
> by the CIS.
My concern was (maybe I'm not reading this correctly), currently you
have marriage #1, divorce #1 pending. If you complete divorce #1, then
you propose to remarry.
I am not saying this would always be fatal. But at a minimum I think
the consul would ask why you divorced and remarried. The consul would
look at your explanation along with timing and other issues, and draw
whatever conclusions he or she thought were logical.
Part of this comes from my understanding of the timing. You propose to
make the divorce final, then return to Romania, then remarry her, then
start over with an immigrant visa. If the remarriage happens within a
short period after the divorce, it gives rise to the possibility that
the marriage is not bona fide and that there was some kind of deal
between you resulting in marriage #2 that was not genuine.
I am not saying that this would happen; I am not saying that the consul
would so conclude. I am saying that it is possible, depending on the
timing, that the consul would so conclude.
You could very well convince the consul that you divorced; that you had
a change of heart; that you returned to Romania to pursue things; that
eventually you reconciled and remarried: the Liz and Dick syndrome that
Stuart talks about. This could quite well be the truth -- and still you
might not be believed.
If you do pursue this path, you should expect to be questioned
extensively (and she as well). It invites scrutiny. But it does not
necessarily invite failure.
>
> It is a real marriage by two people who will live together, share the
> joys and difficulties of building a life together. But there are
> problems, as there are in everyone's life, (the baby issue is very
> important to Anka, while I'm ok with it either way. Medically, I just
> happen to know much better than her that this is going to be very
> difficult and problematic. I've come to grips with this, I am not sure
> that she, or any woman for that matter, can just give up on the issue
> of motherhood without....major complications and stresses on any
> marriage. Maybe you'd have to have been there to completely
> understand. I've been there and not even I, as smart as I am, can
> fathom the deepness of this...need (?) in the feminine psyche. I
> simply don't know how this will play out over time. I don't think
> anyone can. If I could have some reasonable assurance of a child being
> born, I would't worry. But that is not the case, and this remains the
> wild card. Sometimes you can know too much {raised eyebrows}).
>
>
>>And I do not think
>>that the consul will look kindly on what would be characterized as a
>>"strategic divorce" to protect you on the spousal support side.
>
>
> Not that I would ever cop to this...lol...under any circumstances. How
> would the CO ever come to see the situation in this light?
Maybe the consul would not, but you can bet the question will be asked.
>
>
>>But I
>>do see a potential that the consul thinks you really did intend to
>>divorce but are now remarrying to do someone a favor, which starts to
>>raise sham marriage flags.)
>
>
> Hummmm...that's interesting. It is something that I would never have
> thought of, thanks for pointing this out. Because the marriage is
> Real, I suppose that this idea was beyond my field of view.
>
> My counter argument would be simply that I did what the CIS
> recommended and started over...completely. This is without a doubt a
> bona fide marriage.
>
> But the fact that a divorce was filed in late 2002 and completed just
> before a new marriage and filing of a new I-130, seen in this light,
> would be a risk.
>
> I just don't know how significant a risk this would be in the face of
> us being together and...validly married.
>
> A curious thought...if an I-130 is turned down, can you refile in say
> 6 months or maybe a year? Just a thought and maybe you know the
> answer.
You can refile any time you want. Each petition is judged on its own
merits. But you must disclose on the I-130 that you have previously
filed a petition for that beneficiary, so the other file will be looked at.
I actually don't think that the I-130 would be denied. I think the
issue is more likely to arise at the visa interview stage, where the
alien's intent becomes an issue. The alien's intent is not really an
issue at the I-130 stage; the government doesn't look beyond the legal
bona fides of the marriage.
<Remainder snipped>
>
> Dearest Jonathan:
>
> Thank you for the interesting response. I really appreciate this.
> Sometimes issues lurk in the back of your mind and it is necessary to
> have these things pointed out.
>
> After the Andrew carousel below, my head is spinning a bit, but I will
> try shake myself clear of that and...well, of course for the benefit
> of myself, but also for everyone in the group, let us try to
> deconstruct this a little. I'm not being argumentive, I'm trying to
> understand.
Me too.
>
>
>>Speaking strictly on the legal side, I do think that the divorce and the
>>remarriage potentially raises sham marriage issues.
>
>
> It is maybe this potentiality that concerns me. Personally, I don't
> see it because neither the first nor the second proposed marriage
> would be a sham in the sense that I understand the word. Even as used
> by the CIS.
My concern was (maybe I'm not reading this correctly), currently you
have marriage #1, divorce #1 pending. If you complete divorce #1, then
you propose to remarry.
I am not saying this would always be fatal. But at a minimum I think
the consul would ask why you divorced and remarried. The consul would
look at your explanation along with timing and other issues, and draw
whatever conclusions he or she thought were logical.
Part of this comes from my understanding of the timing. You propose to
make the divorce final, then return to Romania, then remarry her, then
start over with an immigrant visa. If the remarriage happens within a
short period after the divorce, it gives rise to the possibility that
the marriage is not bona fide and that there was some kind of deal
between you resulting in marriage #2 that was not genuine.
I am not saying that this would happen; I am not saying that the consul
would so conclude. I am saying that it is possible, depending on the
timing, that the consul would so conclude.
You could very well convince the consul that you divorced; that you had
a change of heart; that you returned to Romania to pursue things; that
eventually you reconciled and remarried: the Liz and Dick syndrome that
Stuart talks about. This could quite well be the truth -- and still you
might not be believed.
If you do pursue this path, you should expect to be questioned
extensively (and she as well). It invites scrutiny. But it does not
necessarily invite failure.
>
> It is a real marriage by two people who will live together, share the
> joys and difficulties of building a life together. But there are
> problems, as there are in everyone's life, (the baby issue is very
> important to Anka, while I'm ok with it either way. Medically, I just
> happen to know much better than her that this is going to be very
> difficult and problematic. I've come to grips with this, I am not sure
> that she, or any woman for that matter, can just give up on the issue
> of motherhood without....major complications and stresses on any
> marriage. Maybe you'd have to have been there to completely
> understand. I've been there and not even I, as smart as I am, can
> fathom the deepness of this...need (?) in the feminine psyche. I
> simply don't know how this will play out over time. I don't think
> anyone can. If I could have some reasonable assurance of a child being
> born, I would't worry. But that is not the case, and this remains the
> wild card. Sometimes you can know too much {raised eyebrows}).
>
>
>>And I do not think
>>that the consul will look kindly on what would be characterized as a
>>"strategic divorce" to protect you on the spousal support side.
>
>
> Not that I would ever cop to this...lol...under any circumstances. How
> would the CO ever come to see the situation in this light?
Maybe the consul would not, but you can bet the question will be asked.
>
>
>>But I
>>do see a potential that the consul thinks you really did intend to
>>divorce but are now remarrying to do someone a favor, which starts to
>>raise sham marriage flags.)
>
>
> Hummmm...that's interesting. It is something that I would never have
> thought of, thanks for pointing this out. Because the marriage is
> Real, I suppose that this idea was beyond my field of view.
>
> My counter argument would be simply that I did what the CIS
> recommended and started over...completely. This is without a doubt a
> bona fide marriage.
>
> But the fact that a divorce was filed in late 2002 and completed just
> before a new marriage and filing of a new I-130, seen in this light,
> would be a risk.
>
> I just don't know how significant a risk this would be in the face of
> us being together and...validly married.
>
> A curious thought...if an I-130 is turned down, can you refile in say
> 6 months or maybe a year? Just a thought and maybe you know the
> answer.
You can refile any time you want. Each petition is judged on its own
merits. But you must disclose on the I-130 that you have previously
filed a petition for that beneficiary, so the other file will be looked at.
I actually don't think that the I-130 would be denied. I think the
issue is more likely to arise at the visa interview stage, where the
alien's intent becomes an issue. The alien's intent is not really an
issue at the I-130 stage; the government doesn't look beyond the legal
bona fides of the marriage.
<Remainder snipped>
Jan 31st 2005, 8:08 am
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:16:09 GMT, Jonathan McNeil Wong
<[email protected]> wrote:
Jonathan:
You are a gentleman.
I presume that you know this, but it is still nice to have this
affirmed from time to time.
>My concern was (maybe I'm not reading this correctly), currently you
>have marriage #1, divorce #1 pending. If you complete divorce #1, then
>you propose to remarry.
>I am not saying this would always be fatal. But at a minimum I think
>the consul would ask why you divorced and remarried. The consul would
>look at your explanation along with timing and other issues, and draw
>whatever conclusions he or she thought were logical.
And this is fair. That's all I ask for. At some level, and I wrote a
pretty decent story on this, but neither of us want to be reminded too
much of the first marriage. There were problems, but we could deal
with them...but a wife that has a dead baby inside of her and refuses
to have it removed because she wants it to be alive so much...even
though the doctors tell her she's going to die if left in, well that
was a tough three weeks until she collapsed and had to be rushed to
emergency.
I'm not saying that any of this was rational and things were said
during this time that were beyond the pale (she killed the baby, the
baby is alive but I wanted it dead, etc etc). It was a time of stark
madness. I honestly don't think that I could live through it again.
Waiting for your wife to die, trying to get her to go to the hospital,
her refusing, the arguments, the screaming, the sullen anger at the
cards that fate had delt...well, it was people being people. Not at
their worst, really, it was, at some terrible level, people at their
best...but it was a very difficult time that we would both like to put
behind ourselves.
I even suppose that I have had a rougher time putting this behind me
that her. Divorce #1 was filed in good faith, but over time, and it
was a year before I would even speak to her again...things have
healed, maybe.
I would like to live with her again. I would almost like to be married
to her again. We spent a month together in September and...it was ok.
But to be honest with you...I am frightened. Terrified of having to go
through something like this again. I want to keep maximum flexibility.
Anka is good with this and sees positive benefits of a new marriage.
She just may be humoring me, but regardless, she wants to be married
to me in one form or another and will do whatever is necessary.
Me? I'm not a cheater, I don't beat women, I don't even shout...I'm
good with being married. I liked it. But I have an appreciation of the
fickleness of life now that I maybe didn't have before.
When people say that, "Things Happen," they often don't have a clue.
Wild things can happen, crazy things, things beyond even your ability
to comprehend. People that know us, tell me to bring Anka home where
she belongs...that's easy to say.
Under what terms? I'm willing to be married again...but I won't allow
my life to destroyed should this fail. That's the bottom line. I have
no idea what the future will hold, but I will do my best as I think so
will Anka...but life can be weird even without anyone being at fault.
Things happen.
It is late, and I'm sure that I have some interesting legal issues to
bring up.
Well, let me try one more...now that all of that BS is out of the way.
One other alternative is to bring her home through a I-130...and then
finalize the divorce. Of course, we would then just run off to Las
Vegas and get married again.
What kind of trouble would this cause with the CIS? She should have
her permanent GC because of the current length of the marriage, 6 plus
years. There should be no future interviews as I understand it...and
further, even if there were we would be married, albeit a second time?
And lastly, though interestingly, when we separated in late 2002 there
was a Marriage Settlement Agreement signed, Under current law, a MSA
and its terms survive any subsequent reconciliation.
So there is a level of protection. But you know, I just want that
first marriage done away with. I want to start clean, as it were.
(I realize Jonathan that I owe you big time for your help in this
matter. I am good about my debts. If I see any interesting immigration
cases, I'll be sure to mention your name.).
Thanks again,
Traveller
<[email protected]> wrote:
Jonathan:
You are a gentleman.
I presume that you know this, but it is still nice to have this
affirmed from time to time.
>My concern was (maybe I'm not reading this correctly), currently you
>have marriage #1, divorce #1 pending. If you complete divorce #1, then
>you propose to remarry.
>I am not saying this would always be fatal. But at a minimum I think
>the consul would ask why you divorced and remarried. The consul would
>look at your explanation along with timing and other issues, and draw
>whatever conclusions he or she thought were logical.
And this is fair. That's all I ask for. At some level, and I wrote a
pretty decent story on this, but neither of us want to be reminded too
much of the first marriage. There were problems, but we could deal
with them...but a wife that has a dead baby inside of her and refuses
to have it removed because she wants it to be alive so much...even
though the doctors tell her she's going to die if left in, well that
was a tough three weeks until she collapsed and had to be rushed to
emergency.
I'm not saying that any of this was rational and things were said
during this time that were beyond the pale (she killed the baby, the
baby is alive but I wanted it dead, etc etc). It was a time of stark
madness. I honestly don't think that I could live through it again.
Waiting for your wife to die, trying to get her to go to the hospital,
her refusing, the arguments, the screaming, the sullen anger at the
cards that fate had delt...well, it was people being people. Not at
their worst, really, it was, at some terrible level, people at their
best...but it was a very difficult time that we would both like to put
behind ourselves.
I even suppose that I have had a rougher time putting this behind me
that her. Divorce #1 was filed in good faith, but over time, and it
was a year before I would even speak to her again...things have
healed, maybe.
I would like to live with her again. I would almost like to be married
to her again. We spent a month together in September and...it was ok.
But to be honest with you...I am frightened. Terrified of having to go
through something like this again. I want to keep maximum flexibility.
Anka is good with this and sees positive benefits of a new marriage.
She just may be humoring me, but regardless, she wants to be married
to me in one form or another and will do whatever is necessary.
Me? I'm not a cheater, I don't beat women, I don't even shout...I'm
good with being married. I liked it. But I have an appreciation of the
fickleness of life now that I maybe didn't have before.
When people say that, "Things Happen," they often don't have a clue.
Wild things can happen, crazy things, things beyond even your ability
to comprehend. People that know us, tell me to bring Anka home where
she belongs...that's easy to say.
Under what terms? I'm willing to be married again...but I won't allow
my life to destroyed should this fail. That's the bottom line. I have
no idea what the future will hold, but I will do my best as I think so
will Anka...but life can be weird even without anyone being at fault.
Things happen.
It is late, and I'm sure that I have some interesting legal issues to
bring up.
Well, let me try one more...now that all of that BS is out of the way.
One other alternative is to bring her home through a I-130...and then
finalize the divorce. Of course, we would then just run off to Las
Vegas and get married again.
What kind of trouble would this cause with the CIS? She should have
her permanent GC because of the current length of the marriage, 6 plus
years. There should be no future interviews as I understand it...and
further, even if there were we would be married, albeit a second time?
And lastly, though interestingly, when we separated in late 2002 there
was a Marriage Settlement Agreement signed, Under current law, a MSA
and its terms survive any subsequent reconciliation.
So there is a level of protection. But you know, I just want that
first marriage done away with. I want to start clean, as it were.
(I realize Jonathan that I owe you big time for your help in this
matter. I am good about my debts. If I see any interesting immigration
cases, I'll be sure to mention your name.).
Thanks again,
Traveller
Feb 2nd 2005, 7:32 am
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
Traveller wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:16:09 GMT, Jonathan McNeil Wong
> <[email protected]> wrote:
<Snip>
>
> One other alternative is to bring her home through a I-130...and then
> finalize the divorce. Of course, we would then just run off to Las
> Vegas and get married again.
I don't advise this. If you bring her in through an I-130, you are
making certain representations about the bona fides of the marriage, as
is she when she applies for the immigrant visa. To file an I-130
knowing that you will divorce when she gets here will likely be viewed
as visa fraud. For you that's not too bad unless some enforcement
person gets a bee in his bonnet. For her, it's curtains, because fraud
on a visa application can result in a lifetime bar.
>
> What kind of trouble would this cause with the CIS? She should have
> her permanent GC because of the current length of the marriage, 6 plus
> years. There should be no future interviews as I understand it...and
> further, even if there were we would be married, albeit a second time?
>
> And lastly, though interestingly, when we separated in late 2002 there
> was a Marriage Settlement Agreement signed, Under current law, a MSA
> and its terms survive any subsequent reconciliation.
I can't help you with this one. Family law varies from state to state,
and I'm not all that well-versed in California family law (California is
where I practice).
>
> So there is a level of protection. But you know, I just want that
> first marriage done away with. I want to start clean, as it were.
So it sounds like the motivation is for a clean start. Have you
considered that there might be other ways to have a clean start without
the legal ramifications? Many cultures have cleansing rituals or
ceremonies designed to accomplish the clean start from a personal or
spiritual point of view, which seems like what you are really looking for.
Good luck to you whatever you decide.
--
Above intended as general commentary, not specific legal
advice. Your mileage may vary.
================================================== =============
Jonathan McNeil Wong Voice: 510-451-0544
Donahue, Gallagher Woods LLP Facsimile: 510-832-1486
P.O. Box 12979 http://www.donahue.com
Oakland, CA 94604-2979 E-mail: [email protected]
================================================== =============
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:16:09 GMT, Jonathan McNeil Wong
> <[email protected]> wrote:
<Snip>
>
> One other alternative is to bring her home through a I-130...and then
> finalize the divorce. Of course, we would then just run off to Las
> Vegas and get married again.
I don't advise this. If you bring her in through an I-130, you are
making certain representations about the bona fides of the marriage, as
is she when she applies for the immigrant visa. To file an I-130
knowing that you will divorce when she gets here will likely be viewed
as visa fraud. For you that's not too bad unless some enforcement
person gets a bee in his bonnet. For her, it's curtains, because fraud
on a visa application can result in a lifetime bar.
>
> What kind of trouble would this cause with the CIS? She should have
> her permanent GC because of the current length of the marriage, 6 plus
> years. There should be no future interviews as I understand it...and
> further, even if there were we would be married, albeit a second time?
>
> And lastly, though interestingly, when we separated in late 2002 there
> was a Marriage Settlement Agreement signed, Under current law, a MSA
> and its terms survive any subsequent reconciliation.
I can't help you with this one. Family law varies from state to state,
and I'm not all that well-versed in California family law (California is
where I practice).
>
> So there is a level of protection. But you know, I just want that
> first marriage done away with. I want to start clean, as it were.
So it sounds like the motivation is for a clean start. Have you
considered that there might be other ways to have a clean start without
the legal ramifications? Many cultures have cleansing rituals or
ceremonies designed to accomplish the clean start from a personal or
spiritual point of view, which seems like what you are really looking for.
Good luck to you whatever you decide.
--
Above intended as general commentary, not specific legal
advice. Your mileage may vary.
================================================== =============
Jonathan McNeil Wong Voice: 510-451-0544
Donahue, Gallagher Woods LLP Facsimile: 510-832-1486
P.O. Box 12979 http://www.donahue.com
Oakland, CA 94604-2979 E-mail: [email protected]
================================================== =============
Feb 2nd 2005, 8:25 am
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Can I Divorce Her & Then Remarry Her?
><Snip>
Dearest Jonathan:
Thanks for the "Snip." Sometimes you wake up in the morning and
wonder, "Just what in the world did I write???????...lol
However, I would note that I have no problem with a Consular Officer
reading all of this. By in large, CO's have been very good to me. They
are generally smart people. I also don't mind a CO perusing this and
maybe taking away the idea that human beings aren't cookie cut-outs.
I am obviously conflicted over this...as human beings are on many
subjects. This is not a bad thing for CO's to know, that people are
people with lots of different issues. Just like them in their lives.
>>
>> One other alternative is to bring her home through a I-130...and then
>> finalize the divorce. Of course, we would then just run off to Las
>> Vegas and get married again.
>. For you that's not too bad unless some enforcement
>person gets a bee in his bonnet.
Well, that could be Very bad for me. No one should be committing
fraud, in whatever its form. I would disagree with you that that is
what I would be doing, but I do understand what you are saying also.
And respect it.
>> And lastly, though interestingly, when we separated in late 2002 there
>> was a Marriage Settlement Agreement signed, Under current law, a MSA
>> and its terms survive any subsequent reconciliation.
>I can't help you with this one. Family law varies from state to state,
>and I'm not all that well-versed in California family law (California is
>where I practice).
Yes, I know that CA is where you practice, but Family Law is a
specialty of mine, so I think I have accurately summarized CA law on
this...but as you well know, it is not possible to know how any set of
facts will really play out...until a Judge says that's the way it is.
>>
>So it sounds like the motivation is for a clean start.
Yes. I will ponder this a little longer. My inclination is to go with
option #1...finish the divorce, get married in a proper Romanian
Wedding, DCF in Bucharest a new I-130 and see what happens.
Or, I could just say to heck with the risks, bring her home and see
what happens. This is how most people do it...lol
> Have you
>considered that there might be other ways to have a clean start without
>the legal ramifications?
Life is not easy. It's full of tough choices. I'd like to clean
myself up in the sense of starting certain clocks over again in the
legal sphere. This may not make myself look good, but it is my
business, my life, and I'm entitled to my choices also.
> Many cultures have cleansing rituals or
>ceremonies designed to accomplish the clean start from a personal or
>spiritual point of view, which seems like what you are really looking for.
You know, I did this, actually. Emotionally it was of a great help. I
did a much praised story on it. Maybe when this is all over and done
with I'll email it to you.
>Good luck to you whatever you decide.
Thanks.
Things work out. A person in the thicket of their mind can only try to
do their best. I'll let you know how the CO treats this I-130 in
whatever form it is submitted.
You never know when you might see something like this again.
Professional curtesy. It is always valuable to know how an Embassy
responds to an unusual situation.
Best Wishes,
Traveller
Dearest Jonathan:
Thanks for the "Snip." Sometimes you wake up in the morning and
wonder, "Just what in the world did I write???????...lol
However, I would note that I have no problem with a Consular Officer
reading all of this. By in large, CO's have been very good to me. They
are generally smart people. I also don't mind a CO perusing this and
maybe taking away the idea that human beings aren't cookie cut-outs.
I am obviously conflicted over this...as human beings are on many
subjects. This is not a bad thing for CO's to know, that people are
people with lots of different issues. Just like them in their lives.
>>
>> One other alternative is to bring her home through a I-130...and then
>> finalize the divorce. Of course, we would then just run off to Las
>> Vegas and get married again.
>. For you that's not too bad unless some enforcement
>person gets a bee in his bonnet.
Well, that could be Very bad for me. No one should be committing
fraud, in whatever its form. I would disagree with you that that is
what I would be doing, but I do understand what you are saying also.
And respect it.
>> And lastly, though interestingly, when we separated in late 2002 there
>> was a Marriage Settlement Agreement signed, Under current law, a MSA
>> and its terms survive any subsequent reconciliation.
>I can't help you with this one. Family law varies from state to state,
>and I'm not all that well-versed in California family law (California is
>where I practice).
Yes, I know that CA is where you practice, but Family Law is a
specialty of mine, so I think I have accurately summarized CA law on
this...but as you well know, it is not possible to know how any set of
facts will really play out...until a Judge says that's the way it is.
>>
>So it sounds like the motivation is for a clean start.
Yes. I will ponder this a little longer. My inclination is to go with
option #1...finish the divorce, get married in a proper Romanian
Wedding, DCF in Bucharest a new I-130 and see what happens.
Or, I could just say to heck with the risks, bring her home and see
what happens. This is how most people do it...lol
> Have you
>considered that there might be other ways to have a clean start without
>the legal ramifications?
Life is not easy. It's full of tough choices. I'd like to clean
myself up in the sense of starting certain clocks over again in the
legal sphere. This may not make myself look good, but it is my
business, my life, and I'm entitled to my choices also.
> Many cultures have cleansing rituals or
>ceremonies designed to accomplish the clean start from a personal or
>spiritual point of view, which seems like what you are really looking for.
You know, I did this, actually. Emotionally it was of a great help. I
did a much praised story on it. Maybe when this is all over and done
with I'll email it to you.
>Good luck to you whatever you decide.
Thanks.
Things work out. A person in the thicket of their mind can only try to
do their best. I'll let you know how the CO treats this I-130 in
whatever form it is submitted.
You never know when you might see something like this again.
Professional curtesy. It is always valuable to know how an Embassy
responds to an unusual situation.
Best Wishes,
Traveller
