Hassen bin Lai

What are the current travel documents requirements to visit the US?

John Smith

Yes!

"Hassen bin Lai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > What are the current travel documents requirements to visit the US?

crg

Oral declaration is the minimum. If required to show proof have one or more of the following, valid passport, expired passport, birth certificate with government issued photo ID.

Stuart Brook

crg14624 wrote:

    > Originally posted by Hassen bin Lai
    >
    >>What are the
    >
    > current travel documents requirements to visit the US?
    >
    > Oral
    > declaration is the minimum. If required to show proof have one or more
    > of the following, valid passport, expired passport, birth certificate
    > with government issued photo ID.

Insufficient detail crg ...

You must have proof of citizenship and if you are over 18, you must also
present government issued photo ID.

Government issued photo ID (e.g. a drivers license) is NOT proof of
citizenship and people presenting just a drivers license are often
refused entry.

crg

Show me anywhere in the law that states that Canadians seeking admission for tourist/business purposes across the landborder are required to have anything at all.

MINIMUM requirements for any Canadian is "Hi, I'm Canadian, can I come in?". You can show up in your bathrobe, fuzzy bunny slippers, and nothing that even has your name on it, and be lawfully admitted to the United States from anywhere in the western hemisphere (except maybe Cuba) based on your word alone. If the officer believes you then you are in.

Lately, they are requesting government issued photo ID for anyone 14 or older, but it's not a requirement under the law.

"If required to show proof have one or more of the following, valid passport, expired passport, birth certificate with government issued photo ID."

I said one or more of the following, "birth certificate with government issued photo ID" is one of the three things I listed.

A passport, valid or expired, establishes identity, citizenship, and has a photo.

I said birth certificate WITH government issued photo ID, not birth certificate OR government issued photo ID. Of course a drivers license without a birth certificate is worthless, not that either document is hard to get by fraud.

Even though the minimum is an oral declaration, it is always recommended to bring passport, expired passport, or birth certificate with government issued photo ID. If the Canadian fails to convince the officer that he is Canadian then they can be easily denied admission for not having proof.

crg

A Canadian citizenship card that bears a photo is also acceptable proof if proof is required.

Stuart Brook

crg14624 wrote:
    > Show me
    >
    >>anywhere in the law that states that Canadians seeking admission for
    >>tourist/business purposes across the landborder are required to have
    >>anything at all.
    >
    >
    > MINIMUM requirements for any Canadian is "Hi, I'm
    >
    >>Canadian, can I come in?". You can show up in your bathrobe, fuzzy
    >>bunny slippers, and nothing that even has your name on it, and be
    >>lawfully admitted to the United States from anywhere in the western
    >>hemisphere (except maybe Cuba) based on your word alone. If the
    >>officer believes you then you are in.
    >
    >
    > Lately, they are requesting
    >
    >>government issued photo ID for anyone 14 or older, but it's not a
    >>requirement under the law.
    >
    >
    > "If required to show proof have one or
    >
    >>more of the following, valid passport, expired passport, birth
    >>certificate with government issued photo ID."
    >
    >
    > I said one or more of
    >
    >>the following, "birth certificate with government issued photo ID" is
    >>one of the three things I listed.
    >
    >
    > A passport, valid or expired,
    >
    >>establishes identity, citizenship, and has a photo.
    >
    >
    > I said birth
    >
    >>certificate WITH government issued photo ID, not birth certificate OR
    >>government issued photo ID. Of course a drivers license without a
    >>birth certificate is worthless, not that either document is hard to
    >>get by fraud.
    >
    >
    > Even though the minimum is an oral declaration, it is
    >
    >>always recommended to bring passport, expired passport, or birth
    >>certificate with government issued photo ID. If the Canadian fails to
    >>convince the officer that he is Canadian then they can be easily
    >>denied admission for not having proof.

Touchy touchy!

Sheesh. I was just trying to fill in some details ... of which I'll
fill in some more.

Actually if you were to make a B1 entry, proof of citizenship is required.

If you show up at the border today trying to make an oral declaration of
Canadian Citizenship even for B2 entry, you will be turned around and
probably given an "insuffient documentation to prove eligibility for
immigrant entry" refusal. Which is kind of confusing of itself but one
must understand that US immigration law is predicated on the concept
that anyone presenting themselves at the border is an intended immigrant
until they prove otherwise. Not having proof that you are a Canadian
citizen and therefore eligible for non-immigrant entry, you are treated
as an intended immigrant.

The requirement for a passport for Canadians is waived, but it's still
the best ID and proof of citizenship to use.

Even expired passports have been refused lately - after all you may have
revoked your citizenship.

crg

Hehe, I didn't mean to come off like a jerk there. Sorry if I came across that way. It's just a friendly discussion.

I still have to disagree though. Nothing in the regs states that evidence is absolutely required for a N/C, B2, B1, F1, or even for a TN admission.

If they turned around everyone who didn't have evidence of citizenship, they wouldn't have enough officers to do all of the I-160A Notice of Refusal of Admission/Parole into the United States slips.

I find it hard to believe that an expired Canadian passport would cause a refusal by itself. Canadian citizenship doesn't expire, and one could renounce just as easily when they had a valid passport. Although some Canadian born people have lost their citizenship if they're father naturalized in a foreign country between 1941 and 1971 or something.

I can see Canada from my window right now, so I'm pretty familiar with the documentary requirements and likelyhood of refusal for not having evidence of citizenship.

I'll try to stay civil. This is a good discussion. Maybe some others can chime in as well.

Stuart Brook

crg14624 wrote:
    > Hehe, I didn't mean to come off like a
    >
    >>jerk there. Sorry if I came across that way. It's just a friendly
    >>discussion.
    >
    >
    > I still have to disagree though. Nothing in the regs
    >
    >>states that evidence is absolutely required for a N/C, B2, B1, F1, or
    >>even for a TN admission.

Actually, there was ... I found it last night for a B1 ... and then lost
it. Navigating the INA and 8CFR is a pain with more and more amendments
and so on lately.

    > If they turned around everyone who didn't
    >
    >>have evidence of citizenship, they wouldn't have enough officers to
    >>do all of the I-160A Notice of Refusal of Admission/Parole into the
    >>United States slips.

I have seen people time and again turned around because they didn't have
proof of citizenship.

    > I find it hard to believe that an expired
    >
    >>Canadian passport would cause a refusal by itself. Canadian
    >>citizenship doesn't expire, and one could renounce just as easily
    >>when they had a valid passport. Although some Canadian born people
    >>have lost their citizenship if they're father naturalized in a
    >>foreign country between 1941 and 1971 or something.

When you get a picky officer, anything is possible.

    > I can see Canada
    >
    >>from my window right now, so I'm pretty familiar with the documentary
    >>requirements and likelyhood of refusal for not having evidence of
    >>citizenship.

I presume that you make lots of trips ... and therefore you're probably
known. I've seen just the opposite while waiting for TN processing in
US customs.

    > I'll try to stay civil. This is a good discussion.

Put simply, I wouldn't cross the border without proof of citizenship.

If you fly, you must provide proof of citizenship, because the airline
is now required to collect it.

crg

"Actually, there was ... I found it last night for a B1 ... and then lost it. Navigating the INA and 8CFR is a pain with more and more amendments and so on lately."

You didn't find it, because it isn't there.

"I have seen people time and again turned around because they didn't have proof of citizenship."

If you are a Canadian who has an accent and/or an ethnic name, the odds of being denied entry for lack of citizenship documents increase exponentially. Also, if the person has a conflict with the officer, then failing to have the evidence gives the officer a perfect opportunity and justification to bounce them.

"When you get a picky officer, anything is possible."

Technically a picky officer can refuse someone for having bad breath.

"I presume that you make lots of trips ... and therefore you're probably known. I've seen just the opposite while waiting for TN processing in US customs."

I rarely cross the border to Canada. I've gone into Canada maybe 6 times in the last two years.

"Put simply, I wouldn't cross the border without proof of citizenship."

I agree. I always carry my valid US passport if I cross. However the discussion started with minimum requirements under the law. I still think that you're overstating the odds of a bona fide visitor, native born Canadian, of anglo descent being refused admission for not having evidence of their citizenship with them.

Of course if Osama bin Ali, Jose Rodriguez, or Oleg Kaczinksi comes rolling up without a citizenship papers, he's a lot more likely to get bounced.

"If you fly, you must provide proof of citizenship, because the airline is now required to collect it."

That's partly true because the airline is subject to fines for bringing people to the US without the right documents. However almost all of the flights from Canada to the US are pre-cleared in Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Ottowa, and Toronto which eliminates the airlines burden to check the travel documents of the passengers.

I would even wager that more than half of Canadians don't have proof of citizenship when they seek entry as a tourist. Many bring their health card, their SIN card, and/or their drivers license and maintain that it's proof of citizenship. Just like US citizens think that a drivers license, social security card and voter registration is evidence of citizenship.

Stuart Brook

crg14624 wrote:
    > "Actually, there was ... I found it last night for a B1 ... and then
    > lost it. Navigating the INA and 8CFR is a pain with more and more
    > amendments and so on lately."
    >
    > You didn't find it, because it isn't
    > there.

Look at 8CFR212.2(b)(4)

"A citizen of Canada or Mexico seeking temporary entry for purposes set
forth in paragraph (b)(4)(i) of this section, who otherwise meets
existing requirements under section 101(a)(15)(B) of the Act, including
but not limited to requirements regarding the source of remuneration,
shall be admitted upon presentation of proof of such citizenship in the
case of Canadian applicants, ..."

Note here that it says "proof" ... and as I read that further with it's
back ref to 214.2(b)(1) this applies to ALL Canadian B1 and B2 visitors.

Also for TN (NAFTA) entry look at NAFTA Chapter 16, Annex 1603 Section A
para 1(A) "proof of citizenship" is required ... this time not in the
CFR but in the NAFTA.

I dealt with NAFTA and such entries quite regularly for 7 years and know
this all too well.

    >
    > "I have seen people time and again turned around because they
    > didn't have proof of citizenship."
    >
    > If you are a Canadian who has an
    > accent and/or an ethnic name, the odds of being denied entry for lack of
    > citizenship documents increase exponentially. Also, if the person has a
    > conflict with the officer, then failing to have the evidence gives the
    > officer a perfect opportunity and justification to bounce them.
    >
    > "When
    > you get a picky officer, anything is possible."
    >
    > Technically a picky
    > officer can refuse someone for having bad breath.

Exactly, like the young lady who was denied at YVR for having too short
a dress!


    > Of course if
    > Osama bin Ali, Jose Rodriguez, or Oleg Kaczinksi comes rolling up
    > without a citizenship papers, he's a lot more likely to get bounced.

Right ... as if any of these folks WOULD appear at the border with true
and valid identification!


    > "If you fly, you must provide proof of citizenship, because the
    > airline is now required to collect it."
    >
    > That's partly true because the
    > airline is subject to fines for bringing people to the US without the
    > right documents. However almost all of the flights from Canada to the
    > US are pre-cleared in Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Ottowa,
    > and Toronto which eliminates the airlines burden to check the travel
    > documents of the passengers.

Actually, they still do because of the recorded manifest info requirements.

    > I would even wager that more than half of
    > Canadians don't have proof of citizenship when they seek entry as a
    > tourist. Many bring their health card, their SIN card, and/or their
    > drivers license and maintain that it's proof of citizenship. Just like
    > US citizens think that a drivers license, social security card and voter
    > registration is evidence of citizenship.

Maybe so ... but there are a lot more turned around because of
insufficient docs than ever before.

Interestingly, voter registration should be reasonable evidence of
citizenship, but considering the number of times they tried to put us on
the voters lists in Colorado, I wouldn't trust it!

Certainly drivers license and SS cards are not proof of citizenship.

crg

"Proof" can be many things. Believe it or not, nothing prevents the officer from accepting an oral declaration as proof of Canadian citizenship. "Proof" comes down to whatever they have to say or show the officer to establish their citizenship. The officer has strict requirements for what proof is for every nationality besides Canada, Bermuda, North American Indians, and United States.

In some cases, a Canadian birth certificate is not always evidence of citizenship. See www.lostcanadian.com for more information on that anomaly. There are some native born Canadians that aren't Canadian anymore and may not even know it.

The sad thing about voter registration is that most states mandate that they will be issued based on a written declaration unless they have information that indicates the subject isn an alien. The mere penalty of perjury is supposed to be enough to insure the systems integrity.

<<<SNIP>>>
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/le...quirements.xml
Entry of Citizens of Canada
Citizens of Canada are exempt from the visa and passport requirement of Immigration and Nationality Act section 212(a)(7). To enter the United States, a Canadian citizen must be able to establish both identity and citizenship. Documents that may establish citizenship are: birth certificate, citizenship certificate, and passport. Although the Immigration Inspector may accept an oral declaration of citizenship, it is recommended that a Canadian citizen carry a document that establishes citizenship. Under current procedures, all travelers may be required to present photo-identification. NOTE: A Canadian citizen arriving from outside the Western Hemisphere is required to present a passport. Canadian citizens classified as Treaty Trader, Treaty Investor, or Fiancé(e) require a visa.
<<<SNIP>>>

"Maybe so ... but there are a lot more turned around because of
insufficient docs than ever before."

I agree with that statement 100%. Refusals on the northern border are up something like 300% since 9/11.

supernav

Easy answer is:

Carrying nothing *can* get you in, but there's NO guarantee. Which means, there's an inherent risk that you may get denied.

Personally, i'd carry proof of citizenship. Who wants to book a 7-day cruise or vacation, and get denied cuz you don't have "proof" of Can. Citizenship?

To put things in perspective -- those moronic goofballs at Canada Immigration (the dollar-store immigration service) who give everyone a hard time except Terrorists and Asylum Seekers -- regularly deny native-born full-on Americans just cuz they don't have US Passports. I've seen more than one article in newspapers of americans denied entry cuz all they had was a driver's license.

I wouldn't blame US immigration if they decide to play fair and have the same policy back towards Canadians. And after 9/11 -- there's too much of a risk with Terrorism to let people in w/o proper documentation. Especially folks who may be on terrorist watch-lists (which is why crgxx alluded those with middle-eastern names would need valid passports to authenticate the names they give).

-= nav =-

Stuart Brook

supernav wrote:
    > Easy answer is:
    >
    > Carrying nothing *can* get you in, but there's NO
    > guarantee. Which means, there's an inherent risk that you may get
    > denied.
    >
    > Personally, i'd carry proof of citizenship. Who wants to book
    > a 7-day cruise or vacation, and get denied cuz you don't have "proof" of
    > Can. Citizenship?
    >
    > To put things in perspective -- those moronic
    > goofballs at Canada Immigration (the dollar-store immigration service)
    > who give everyone a hard time except Terrorists and Asylum Seekers --
    > regularly deny native-born full-on Americans just cuz they don't have US
    > Passports. I've seen more than one article in newspapers of americans
    > denied entry cuz all they had was a driver's license.
    >
    > I wouldn't blame
    > US immigration if they decide to play fair and have the same policy back
    > towards Canadians. And after 9/11 -- there's too much of a risk with
    > Terrorism to let people in w/o proper documentation. Especially folks
    > who may be on terrorist watch-lists (which is why crgxx alluded those
    > with middle-eastern names would need valid passports to authenticate the
    > names they give).
    >
    > -= nav =-

nav ... where have you been ... out of this world on LSD?

It was the US INS who let in the terrorists on 9/11 and not from Canada!

The INS and now US Border services (whatever their current name) can be
as mean and cruel and nasty or worse than Canada's. Those moronic
goofballs even deny entry to US citizens who have proof!

If you're gonna start brandishing big paint brushes, expect them to be
brandished back.

supernav

So Canada has no responsiblity when terrorists use it as a hotbed for planning and plotting of actions in the US right?

When canadian citizens/immigrants from canada are caught trying to blow up things in the US, and the US implements new tighter restrictions on the border as a result -- Canadians know who to *blame*.

Anyways..going off topic here.

-= nav =-