Look at the time!
Sep 24th 2009, 3:03 pm
#61
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,526
Re: Look at the time!
Some employers do have checks in place to ensure that employees do not abuse the sick pay entitlements.
In the NSW public service, normally you need to provide a medical certificate for more than 2 consecutive sick days. Where an employee takes their full sick leave entitlement in shorter periods (and therefore avoids having to produce a certificate at all) and the employer suspects that the system's being abused they can request that EVERY sick day (even single ones) are accompanied by a medical certificate.
Of course, people that are abusing the system often have a doctor who will write medical certificates for no real reason - but it is a deterrent for some people.
In the NSW public service, normally you need to provide a medical certificate for more than 2 consecutive sick days. Where an employee takes their full sick leave entitlement in shorter periods (and therefore avoids having to produce a certificate at all) and the employer suspects that the system's being abused they can request that EVERY sick day (even single ones) are accompanied by a medical certificate.
Of course, people that are abusing the system often have a doctor who will write medical certificates for no real reason - but it is a deterrent for some people.
Australia Post handles the misuse of Medical Certificate by chronic offenders with one phone call to the Doctor. That seems to stop the Dr Howlongs of this world. Takes a lot to get them to that stage though.
Sep 24th 2009, 10:12 pm
#62
Gutter Gob!!
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Perth
Posts: 13,098
Re: Look at the time!
Bumping this thread 'cos I never did get an answer to this:
My husband takes his sick whether he is sick or not. His salary is calculated in such a way that he actually pays for his sick days so he sure as hell is going to take them.
How is a salary calculated to cater for employees deliberately taking sick days whether they are sick or not and how is that "fair" to those that don't take it.
Answers please ?
My husband takes his sick whether he is sick or not. His salary is calculated in such a way that he actually pays for his sick days so he sure as hell is going to take them.
How is a salary calculated to cater for employees deliberately taking sick days whether they are sick or not and how is that "fair" to those that don't take it.
Answers please ?
Sep 25th 2009, 9:57 am
#63
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 882
Re: Look at the time!
It's a pity we are discussing this on Hutch's thread.
Under Australian law if there is less than 3 days of sick leave in a row taken then the employer is not, repeat not, entitled to know the reasons, if the leave is accompanied by a Doctors certificate. Medical Condition is all the employers need to know. There are strict laws to back this up.
An employer is also treading on very shaky ground if they question a doctors certificate, where the leave is greater than 3 days, especially if it comes down to Mental Health issues. Again there are precedents for this with union involvement throughout the country.
The Medical certificate basically is where and when the law starts and stops with this issue.
So Oblineill, if your lady in question that took the time off had produced a Doctors certificate and had of had the nous to take it to a Union, you could have been facing severe court sanctions. As it has been deemed by the supreme court that Employers do no have the right to know the reasons behind a medical certificate. Fines apply, and if a Harassment charge is laid beyond this then employers could even loose a house in court fees and penalties.
Is it right you ask.... well its the law, the medical certificate is where this starts and stops. Employers can actually sue the doctor. Thats never happened as far as I know.
I dont suppose you want to PM me this ladies name and the company she worked for. I would love to have the opportunity to put this case to the secretary of the Australian council of trade Unions. Then the employer and others involved might find out a little about the stress that accompanies IVF..... The hard way.
If your doubting my information, then here is a case study.
There is no way the company you worked for and the people associated in this decision would win this case.
You can ignore this of course, if there was no medical certificate involved.... then I would say thats definitely up to the employer. I'd be amazed if she didnt produce a MC though.
http://www.ahri.com.au/MMSdocuments/...tingsickie.pdf
Reason I'm being so hard on this one. I'm no doctor, nor is the Employer. However I have a hunch that when it comes to IVF that state of mind could well play a part in whether the conception goes ahead or not.
So what bloody right does a employer have to question the MCertificate is the whole crux of this issue.
The other point is that Sickness pay, is a legal requirement in employing full time permanent workers in Australia.
Under Australian law if there is less than 3 days of sick leave in a row taken then the employer is not, repeat not, entitled to know the reasons, if the leave is accompanied by a Doctors certificate. Medical Condition is all the employers need to know. There are strict laws to back this up.
An employer is also treading on very shaky ground if they question a doctors certificate, where the leave is greater than 3 days, especially if it comes down to Mental Health issues. Again there are precedents for this with union involvement throughout the country.
The Medical certificate basically is where and when the law starts and stops with this issue.
So Oblineill, if your lady in question that took the time off had produced a Doctors certificate and had of had the nous to take it to a Union, you could have been facing severe court sanctions. As it has been deemed by the supreme court that Employers do no have the right to know the reasons behind a medical certificate. Fines apply, and if a Harassment charge is laid beyond this then employers could even loose a house in court fees and penalties.
Is it right you ask.... well its the law, the medical certificate is where this starts and stops. Employers can actually sue the doctor. Thats never happened as far as I know.
I dont suppose you want to PM me this ladies name and the company she worked for. I would love to have the opportunity to put this case to the secretary of the Australian council of trade Unions. Then the employer and others involved might find out a little about the stress that accompanies IVF..... The hard way.
If your doubting my information, then here is a case study.
There is no way the company you worked for and the people associated in this decision would win this case.
You can ignore this of course, if there was no medical certificate involved.... then I would say thats definitely up to the employer. I'd be amazed if she didnt produce a MC though.
http://www.ahri.com.au/MMSdocuments/...tingsickie.pdf
Reason I'm being so hard on this one. I'm no doctor, nor is the Employer. However I have a hunch that when it comes to IVF that state of mind could well play a part in whether the conception goes ahead or not.
So what bloody right does a employer have to question the MCertificate is the whole crux of this issue.
The other point is that Sickness pay, is a legal requirement in employing full time permanent workers in Australia.
Not related to Arthur Scargill are you by any chance ? !
Anyway....there was no medical certificate produced but no doubt she could have got one easy. In the end it was the owners decision what to do not mine and the owner/directors were all Australian and being directors had statutory duty to know these things. Also, the lady in question used to work in the healthcare system so of anyone she would know her rights.
I am happy to say she went on to conceive and have a healthy baby.
Anyways.....just to paint a different picture of me.......unfortunately due to the downturn in property she was made redundant. In the end as is so often the case it became a blessing and she moved onwards and upwards to better things. In her redundancy pay, being a wise old accountant I managed to enhance her pay off package quite legally by a few thousand dollars instead of it going to the tax man. For this she was quite pleased and everyone involved in that little company remains of sound friendship.
So....back to my question....I take one day sick each month...no questions asked...but it is a proper sickie......what happens when I need two weeks off 'cos I am sick.....and how is this reflected in my pay compared to those that dont play the game and take these sickies ?
I must be thick as I still have not read a decent answer.
Sep 25th 2009, 12:46 pm
#64
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,526
Re: Look at the time!
Hi
Not related to Arthur Scargill are you by any chance ? !
Anyway....there was no medical certificate produced but no doubt she could have got one easy. In the end it was the owners decision what to do not mine and the owner/directors were all Australian and being directors had statutory duty to know these things. Also, the lady in question used to work in the healthcare system so of anyone she would know her rights.
I am happy to say she went on to conceive and have a healthy baby.
Anyways.....just to paint a different picture of me.......unfortunately due to the downturn in property she was made redundant. In the end as is so often the case it became a blessing and she moved onwards and upwards to better things. In her redundancy pay, being a wise old accountant I managed to enhance her pay off package quite legally by a few thousand dollars instead of it going to the tax man. For this she was quite pleased and everyone involved in that little company remains of sound friendship.
So....back to my question....I take one day sick each month...no questions asked...but it is a proper sickie......what happens when I need two weeks off 'cos I am sick.....and how is this reflected in my pay compared to those that dont play the game and take these sickies ?
I must be thick as I still have not read a decent answer.
Not related to Arthur Scargill are you by any chance ? !
Anyway....there was no medical certificate produced but no doubt she could have got one easy. In the end it was the owners decision what to do not mine and the owner/directors were all Australian and being directors had statutory duty to know these things. Also, the lady in question used to work in the healthcare system so of anyone she would know her rights.
I am happy to say she went on to conceive and have a healthy baby.
Anyways.....just to paint a different picture of me.......unfortunately due to the downturn in property she was made redundant. In the end as is so often the case it became a blessing and she moved onwards and upwards to better things. In her redundancy pay, being a wise old accountant I managed to enhance her pay off package quite legally by a few thousand dollars instead of it going to the tax man. For this she was quite pleased and everyone involved in that little company remains of sound friendship.
So....back to my question....I take one day sick each month...no questions asked...but it is a proper sickie......what happens when I need two weeks off 'cos I am sick.....and how is this reflected in my pay compared to those that dont play the game and take these sickies ?
I must be thick as I still have not read a decent answer.
The general award across Australia is 15 days of sick leave per year, with two weeks accruing each year of untaken sick leave. 5 days is generally allowable without a certificate and 10 days with.
So @ 12 days out of your total each year it would take you 4 years before you would reach a situation where you would be able to get paid in your above scenario.
Any employer can refuse to pay sick leave if there is no accompanying medical certificate, its up to the employee to provide just cause themselves. Which is why it is advisable to always provide a Medical Certificate for days off. Theoretically an employee could phone up with symptoms of a heart attack and the employer need not pay him without an accompanying certificate. Which need only say "medical condition"
Incidently we have people at Aus Post that are rorters and have reguarly taken all of their sickies. The new industry protocol is to pay these people out and get them to provide proof that they are fit for work. If they cannot provide proof Australia Post and it seems other government agencies are now saying they are not fit to return to work. They wont sack them which leaves them in Limbo land. If they resign it takes 13 weeks for them to get unemployment benefits. So the current system does work on rorters albeit at the cost of paying out all of the sickness benefit.
Last edited by ozzieeagle; Sep 25th 2009 at 12:49 pm.
Sep 25th 2009, 2:54 pm
#65
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 14,188
Re: Look at the time!
Firstly... Well done Hutch on the new job and I hope it all goes as well for you.
Secondly... only you could end up with an arguement about Aussie sick pay in your update thread.. !!
Finally... I never realised sick pay was viewed, or treated, in this manner in Oz... sounds bizarre to my UK ears. It probably explains why I haven't taken a single day sick since I started work in Oz.
Secondly... only you could end up with an arguement about Aussie sick pay in your update thread.. !!
Finally... I never realised sick pay was viewed, or treated, in this manner in Oz... sounds bizarre to my UK ears. It probably explains why I haven't taken a single day sick since I started work in Oz.
Oct 10th 2009, 9:26 pm
#66
Australia's Doorman
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: The Shoalhaven, New South Wales, Australia
Posts: 11,056
Re: Look at the time!
Firstly... Well done Hutch on the new job and I hope it all goes as well for you.
Secondly... only you could end up with an arguement about Aussie sick pay in your update thread.. !!
Finally... I never realised sick pay was viewed, or treated, in this manner in Oz... sounds bizarre to my UK ears. It probably explains why I haven't taken a single day sick since I started work in Oz.
Secondly... only you could end up with an arguement about Aussie sick pay in your update thread.. !!
Finally... I never realised sick pay was viewed, or treated, in this manner in Oz... sounds bizarre to my UK ears. It probably explains why I haven't taken a single day sick since I started work in Oz.
