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Leslie Feb 4th 2011 1:55 am

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP (Post 9150679)
I support the healthcare bill, but I have to agree that this is a sticky issue from a legal standpoint. It's certainly easy to argue that it amounts to a head tax and that such a head tax is unconstitutional -- Congress is permitted to tax incomes, property, consumption, imports, etc., but is not allowed to tax you simply because you are alive.

There were other ways that they could have worked around this technicality, but they would have made passage more difficult. I can't think of an alternative that wouldn't have involved some sort of tax increase (which could have been used as a voucher that could have been used to pay the premium, making it a wash), and we all know that such things are verboten in DC.

Exactly, the car insurance analogy is one that gets thrown out there a lot but I don't think it holds water and it's not productive.

Of course, I support the healthcare bill. What choice do I have? But forcing the uninsured to buy insurance seems almost a punitory action made against the very people the bill is supposed to be helping.

Leslie Feb 4th 2011 1:57 am

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Rete (Post 9150687)
In Canada or the UK, for instance, you pay for your healthcare premiums through tax deductions. So in effect, that is mandating that you must pay for your insurance. Where is the difference between the president's healthcare bill and Canada's and the UK's healthcare policy.

As in the US, if you are on welfare you get medicare if you are on welfare or disability. So again, where is the difference from Canada or the UK providing healthcare to those that don't pay taxes?

Which is exactly why we need the public option.

Bob Feb 4th 2011 2:49 am

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Rete (Post 9150687)
In Canada or the UK, for instance, you pay for your healthcare premiums through tax deductions. So in effect, that is mandating that you must pay for your insurance. Where is the difference between the president's healthcare bill and Canada's and the UK's healthcare policy.

As in the US, if you are on welfare you get medicare if you are on welfare or disability. So again, where is the difference from Canada or the UK providing healthcare to those that don't pay taxes?

If you don't work, you don't pay as much tax, only on things you buy. Also don't pay tax on welfare payments, which isn't the case here.

AmerLisa Feb 4th 2011 3:01 am

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Bob (Post 9150893)
If you don't work, you don't pay as much tax, only on things you buy. Also don't pay tax on welfare payments, which isn't the case here.

:confused:

Bob Feb 4th 2011 4:19 am

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by AmerLisa (Post 9150920)
:confused:

You aren't taxed on your unemployment payments in the UK, but you are in the US, etc.

RoadWarriorFromLP Feb 4th 2011 5:59 am

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Leslie66 (Post 9150828)
But forcing the uninsured to buy insurance seems almost a punitory action made against the very people the bill is supposed to be helping.

The reason for that provision is because of the need to broaden the insured pool. It's an actuarial issue; expanding the pool introduces more healthy people into the pool who can indirectly pay for the sick ones.

For all of the talk about socialist this and communist that, this plan most closely resembles the Swiss system, which combines private insurance and providers with mandatory purchase requirements. But the Swiss don't live under the US constitution.

In any case, the poor would get subsidies, so they aren't being punished. The people who are being punished are those few who both don't have insurance and can but don't want to pay for it. But this is a very small segment of the population.

Rete Feb 4th 2011 12:40 pm

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Bob (Post 9150893)
If you don't work, you don't pay as much tax, only on things you buy. Also don't pay tax on welfare payments, which isn't the case here.


Welfare payments are not taxable. I don't think the law has been changed since I was a young adult of 27 and placed on welfare by the courts. I didn't want to go on welfare but the way it worked is that I signed up, was approved due to having two children, and received a monthly check and food stamps. Husband's child support went directly to them. So the only good thing about that arrangement was that we made medicare and food stamps for a little over a year. When the four year finally went to school full time I went back to work full time and went off welfare and medicare and food stamps.

Unemployment monies are taxable. Unemployment benefits are not welfare.

Leslie Feb 4th 2011 1:18 pm

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP (Post 9151178)
The reason for that provision is because of the need to broaden the insured pool. It's an actuarial issue; expanding the pool introduces more healthy people into the pool who can indirectly pay for the sick ones.

For all of the talk about socialist this and communist that, this plan most closely resembles the Swiss system, which combines private insurance and providers with mandatory purchase requirements. But the Swiss don't live under the US constitution.

In any case, the poor would get subsidies, so they aren't being punished. The people who are being punished are those few who both don't have insurance and can but don't want to pay for it. But this is a very small segment of the population.

Yeah, I've heard of these people, the ones with plenty of money (and no pre-existing) who refuse to buy insurance. I've never actually seen one but I'm sure they exist. Somewhere.

And I'm not talking about the poor either (using the government's definition of poor) they will qualify for free healthcare. I'm okay with that, but it's already that way, so I don't see the significance. I'm talking about the working and middle class (do we still have a middle class?). The family of 5, with two working parents, who can afford insurance for the kids but have to leave themselves uninsured because of extortionist premiums. Extortionist premiums for (as Rete so aptly put it) shit insurance. On paper those people may look like they should be able to afford insurance but in reality it's just not feasible.

What's happened, and this is the reason more and more people have ended up uninsured, is that people have cottoned onto the fraud that's been perpetrated on them by the insurance companies and medical mega-structures. Why pay $200 - $300 per month (at best) for the privilege of being under-insured? Any major medical incident and they're ruined anyway (see my post #540), so why pay for thin air? Individuals are tired of paying insurance premiums that only serve to "insure" the hospitals and doctors. The individual, hairdressers, cab drivers, restaurant workers, remain completely exposed and vulnerable, with or without insurance. These are the people that I'm afraid will be forced to buy insurance and these are the people that the bill is supposed to help.

I'm hopeful that the bill will do what it suggests but I am skeptical. This country has a long history of protecting the very rich, providing for the very poor, and screwing over the man in the middle.

Giantaxe Feb 4th 2011 3:48 pm

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Leslie66 (Post 9152091)
And I'm not talking about the poor either (using the government's definition of poor) they will qualify for free healthcare.

A lot of them don't. Only a handful of states provide Medicaid to adults that don't have children. A few others provide limited benefits that are a subset of those provided by Medicaid.


Originally Posted by Leslie66 (Post 9152091)
I'm talking about the working and middle class (do we still have a middle class?). The family of 5, with two working parents, who can afford insurance for the kids but have to leave themselves uninsured because of extortionist premiums. Extortionist premiums for (as Rete so aptly put it) shit insurance. On paper those people may look like they should be able to afford insurance but in reality it's just not feasible.

Exactly. So because of the extortionist premiums, these folks remain outside the insurance pool. If they could pay according to their means (as in a single-payer tax based system, for example) they would both be contributing and adding to the insured pool. And typically younger healthier people are those with less income, so getting them into the insured pool is exactly what's needed.


Originally Posted by Leslie66 (Post 9152091)
These are the people that I'm afraid will be forced to buy insurance and these are the people that the bill is supposed to help.

They should pay according to heir means, which is why single-payer systems work pretty well. The reform is an attempt to make people pay according to their means (through subsidies based on income/family size etc) whilst not having a single payer system.


Originally Posted by Leslie66 (Post 9152091)
I'm hopeful that the bill will do what it suggests but I am skeptical. This country has a long history of protecting the very rich, providing for the very poor, and screwing over the man in the middle.

The poor really aren't provided for much either. there really isn't much of a social safety net in this country compared to other western countries.

Giantaxe Feb 4th 2011 3:52 pm

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP (Post 9151178)
For all of the talk about socialist this and communist that, this plan most closely resembles the Swiss system, which combines private insurance and providers with mandatory purchase requirements. But the Swiss don't live under the US constitution.

They also regulate insurance companies to a degree that wouldn't get political support here. Personally, I think the Swiss system is about as good as it gets in terms of health care access. Here's a pretty good overview of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland

Leslie Feb 4th 2011 4:04 pm

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 9152337)
A lot of them don't. Only a handful of states provide Medicaid to adults that don't have children. A few others provide limited benefits that are a subset of those provided by Medicaid.



Exactly. So because of the extortionist premiums, these folks remain outside the insurance pool. If they could pay according to their means (as in a single-payer tax based system, for example) they would both be contributing and adding to the insured pool. And typically younger healthier people are those with less income, so getting them into the insured pool is exactly what's needed.



They should pay according to heir means, which is why single-payer systems work pretty well. The reform is an attempt to make people pay according to their means (through subsidies based on income/family size etc) whilst not having a single payer system.



The poor really aren't provided for much either. there really isn't much of a social safety net in this country compared to other western countries.


Intellectually, I understand what you're saying and what the bill is trying to accomplish. I am nervous about the practical application. I am nervous about the difference between what people in suits think the working poor can afford as opposed to what they can actually bear.

And, in case I haven't made this clear, I don't think the bill is too socialist, I think it is not socialist enough.

Giantaxe Feb 4th 2011 4:12 pm

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Leslie66 (Post 9152385)
And, in case I haven't made this clear, I don't think the bill is too socialist, I don't think it is socialist enough.

Personally I don't care what label something has as long as its a pragmatic solution to a real problem. This is one of the problems in the US:- too many people are so blinded by political dogma that they can't see the wood for the trees in terms of actually helping real people.

Leslie Feb 4th 2011 4:15 pm

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 9152400)
Personally I don't care what label something has as long as its a pragmatic solution to a real problem. This is one of the problems in the US:- too many people are so blinded by political dogma that they can't see the wood for the trees in terms of actually helping real people.

Absolutely. If it takes even a little pressure off the people, that are struggling against seemingly insurmountable odds with regard to healthcare, it will be monumental.

RoadWarriorFromLP Feb 4th 2011 9:48 pm

Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
 

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 9152350)
They (the Swiss) also regulate insurance companies to a degree that wouldn't get political support here.

I agree. The average person has no clue why the US system is overpriced, or that the solution requires getting insurers out of the business of setting the price for services or of managing the pool. To control costs, the government needs to prevent insurers from cherry picking policy holders and to maintain a ceiling on physicians' fees.


Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 9152350)
I think the Swiss system is about as good as it gets in terms of health care access.

The Swiss system is, after the US, the most expensive in the world per capita. But it would be an improvement over what we have today.


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