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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Trailer Park (https://britishexpats.com/forum/trailer-park-96/)
-   -   US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :( (https://britishexpats.com/forum/trailer-park-96/us-diplomats-wife-kills-biker-uk-then-flees-country-928357/)

robin1234 Dec 28th 2019 9:37 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by Yankashire (Post 12782924)
I was raised to believe that it's a rule-of-law society,..
This does seem to be a commonly expressed belief in the US. I was always puzzled by it, though, because it’s pretty clear that the US is less of a “rule of law society” than most other advanced, western countries. After all, Americans often pride themselves on “self reliance” and not trusting government. Whether you like it or not, law is a function of government.

Yankashire Dec 28th 2019 9:46 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 12782947)


This does seem to be a commonly expressed belief in the US. I was always puzzled by it, though, because it’s pretty clear that the US is less of a “rule of law society” than most other advanced, western countries. After all, Americans often pride themselves on “self reliance” and not trusting government. Whether you like it or not, law is a function of government.
I have to say, I don't agree... yes, many Americans pride themselves on self-reliance, but the entire history of the American economy is underpinned by the rule of law... for example, secure property rights and rights of contract, including for foreigners and (lately) members of historically disfavored minority groups, which sense of security encourages a sense of safety in one's investments. The Americans could not have been as successful as they were without the rule of law. The bottom line is, you ought to get a fair shake in an American court regardless of who you are, and if you don't, I and a lot of other Americans would have a big problem with that.

Now, when law bleeds into international relations and the accompanying politics, we are into a whole other can of worms. But I would say that a sense of procedural (as opposed to substantive) fairness is inculcated in most of us as young children, and it sticks with us through life...

robin1234 Dec 28th 2019 7:40 pm
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by Yankashire (Post 12782949)
I have to say, I don't agree... yes, many Americans pride themselves on self-reliance, but the entire history of the American economy is underpinned by the rule of law... for example, secure property rights and rights of contract, including for foreigners and (lately) members of historically disfavored minority groups, which sense of security encourages a sense of safety in one's investments. The Americans could not have been as successful as they were without the rule of law. The bottom line is, you ought to get a fair shake in an American court regardless of who you are, and if you don't, I and a lot of other Americans would have a big problem with that.

Now, when law bleeds into international relations and the accompanying politics, we are into a whole other can of worms. But I would say that a sense of procedural (as opposed to substantive) fairness is inculcated in most of us as young children, and it sticks with us through life...
Again, I’m skeptical. “Secure property rights and rights of contract.” You mean, as in England, Scotland, the Netherlands (etc., etc.) going back to at least the 17th century? Just look at the detailed history of the English civil war, a time of tremendous conflict and stress - it is estimated at least 300,000 people were killed in the war. The courts were full of legal petitions and lawsuits for redress, recovery of property etc. Apparently hundreds of thousands of such actions can still be documented, countless others, paperwork has been lost. Meanwhile, in the US, property of Cherokees, African Americans, and others has simply been expropriated or stolen, as recently as the nineteenth and even early twentieth century. This happened as a result of riots and mass murder, but also as a result of state and federal legislation.

Hiro11 Dec 30th 2019 10:10 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 12782947)


This does seem to be a commonly expressed belief in the US. I was always puzzled by it, though, because it’s pretty clear that the US is less of a “rule of law society” than most other advanced, western countries. After all, Americans often pride themselves on “self reliance” and not trusting government. Whether you like it or not, law is a function of government.
Shock of all shocks, I actually agree with you on something. I believe what you're talking about is a fundamental underpinning of what it means to be American: what Thoreau called "civil disobedience". Everything from Ben Franklin to MLK to more questionable things like the NRA and the Black Power movement comes from a similar place and a similar mentality. Even frivolous things like Twisted Sister singing "We're Not Gonna Take It", Burning Man and the Barkley Marathons (look that one up) capture a bit of the spirit.

Yankashire Dec 31st 2019 4:03 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by Hiro11 (Post 12783644)
Shock of all shocks, I actually agree with you on something. I believe what you're talking about is a fundamental underpinning of what it means to be American: what Thoreau called "civil disobedience". Everything from Ben Franklin to MLK to more questionable things like the NRA and the Black Power movement comes from a similar place and a similar mentality. Even frivolous things like Twisted Sister singing "We're Not Gonna Take It", Burning Man and the Barkley Marathons (look that one up) capture a bit of the spirit.
This seems to me a bit like trying to understand modern Russia by reading Pushkin... it provides a bit of cultural insight, but ultimately, the US is, like the UK, a modern, mostly functional republic with a well-developed rule-of-law culture... "Sovereign citizens", assorted militant and mainstream civil society groups, and pop culture references notwithstanding...

Edit: I guess the UK is not technically a republic, of course, but functions mostly as if...

spouse of scouse Jan 11th 2020 4:11 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
The US has refused a Home Office request to extradite Sacoolas to the UK, saying the request is highly inappropriate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51075235

DaveLovesDee Jan 11th 2020 4:54 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12788407)
The US has refused a Home Office request to extradite Sacoolas to the UK, saying the request is highly inappropriate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51075235
Next step should be to issue an Interpol arrest warrant, whereby she can be arrested if she lands in any of the Interpol signatory countries.

spouse of scouse Jan 11th 2020 5:04 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12788431)
Next step should be to issue an Interpol arrest warrant, whereby she can be arrested if she lands in any of the Interpol signatory countries.
Do you think the UK government will do that Dave? And do you know if she can be tried 'in absentia' in the UK? I seem to recall that the EU wasn't keen on in absentia trials, but some EU countries do have these. (I know that the EU may not have a say shortly)

scrubbedexpat142 Jan 11th 2020 5:08 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12788407)
The US has refused a Home Office request to extradite Sacoolas to the UK, saying the request is highly inappropriate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51075235
We all know the rule enforced by the U.S. - We do as we like and you do as we like.

Rete Jan 11th 2020 5:14 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
As a Yank, I do firmly believe that this woman should return to the UK and turn herself in. She drove a vehicle negligently (wrong side of the street), hit a bike rider, killed him and fled the country. As a person of integrity and conscious, she should stand tall and accept her punishment.

Expatrick -- don't know where in hell you got that rule "We do as we like and you do as we like" sounds like someone with a deep hatred on their shoulder.

spouse of scouse Jan 11th 2020 5:22 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by Rete (Post 12788443)
As a Yank, I do firmly believe that this woman should return to the UK and turn herself in. She drove a vehicle negligently (wrong side of the street), hit a bike rider, killed him and fled the country. As a person of integrity and conscious, she should stand tall and accept her punishment.
Yes. It's the only way the family of the lad who was killed will be able to begin to heal. I also think it's the only way that Sacoolas will be able to live with herself, even the young man's mother has said she feels sorry for her and that the family (through their solicitor) would ask for a suspended sentence instead of a custodial one.

caretaker Jan 11th 2020 5:40 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
If they don't want her extradited, then they should get her to surrender on her own. Intelligence Officer sounds more like Spook than Diplomat, so it doesn't make sense for them to prolong the news interest. They should just get it done and get it off the BBC and show some respect for the host country. The most powerful nation in the world should be able to get a lady to go to court for causing a traffic fatality.

scrubbedexpat142 Jan 11th 2020 5:42 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by Rete (Post 12788443)
As a Yank, I do firmly believe that this woman should return to the UK and turn herself in. She drove a vehicle negligently (wrong side of the street), hit a bike rider, killed him and fled the country. As a person of integrity and conscious, she should stand tall and accept her punishment.

Expatrick -- don't know where in hell you got that rule "We do as we like and you do as we like" sounds like someone with a deep hatred on their shoulder.
Probably an appreciation of history - ignorance of which you have just admitted to (IR 655 for example)!!

andyrebell Jan 11th 2020 5:45 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by Rete (Post 12788443)
As a Yank, I do firmly believe that this woman should return to the UK and turn herself in. She drove a vehicle negligently (wrong side of the street), hit a bike rider, killed him and fled the country. As a person of integrity and conscious, she should stand tall and accept her punishment.

Expatrick -- don't know where in hell you got that rule "We do as we like and you do as we like" sounds like someone with a deep hatred on their shoulder.
Would you return and serve your time in Larkhall and have Jim Fenner as you prison officer? She probably watches bad girls and thinks that is what english jails are like. She wouldn't last a week in an english jail and she knows it.

Nutmegger Jan 11th 2020 5:58 am
Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(
 
Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12788407)
The US has refused a Home Office request to extradite Sacoolas to the UK, saying the request is highly inappropriate.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-51075235

One would like to think that, if she doesn’t surrender, this woman will never again set foot outside the US. A kind of house arrest.


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