Hypertweeky

Thanks for the link.. I had a good laugh.
Guess It's time for me to migrate too lol..

Buendia

A little late to this thread, but I completely agree... David and I talked about this too. We still have our house in Dublin...

The day after the election, in my very liberal town of Santa Fe, approx. 70% of voters were in mourning. One friend said, "Well, America is still the best place in the world to live..." Which I disagree with, having lived quite happily in Ireland (and having enjoyed the national healthcare system, ban on gun ownership, freedom of information act, freedom of speech, chocolate digestive biscuits, potato farls...). The things I missed were local Santa Fe things - friends, green chile, mountains, snow, intense sun and outdoor opportunities.

One benefit of being an American citizen is that even if you live abroad you get to vote in the US (most countries are not this way so David doesn't get to vote anywhere at the moment)... Figure we could leave, keep voting, hope that things change and return if they do. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned this... could be the next target of the Patriot Act...

Hypertweeky

I could have voted for the Spanish election but I didn't register to vote by mail, I was too busy trying to get back to my hubby.. That's the only time I haven't voted.. next time not even immigration issues will stop me!!!
By the way I agree with all the things you listed about Ireland, Spain is quite alike!!

USA & Pakistan

No airplane crashed into the pentagon. Look at the photos. Where are the remains of the plane? There was a relatively small hole in the building and then the roof caved in. There are so many lies. What happened to the airplane and the people that suposedly died in that crash?? There is more to 9/11 than meets the eye.
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero...erreurs_en.htm

Maybe this war on terror was all orchestrated from the very beginning and it definately affects (including, but not limited to) immigration and the safety of Americans when they travel to other countries.

If Bush is so interested in saving the world and creating fair and democratic countries... what about what is happening in Sudan? All of the those people being murdered via genocide (Time Magazine, 10/04). Oh ya, they dont have oil there. never mind.

If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

Marnee

inquisitive40

If I were to be honest, I think the only surprise to the Bush admin about 9/11 was that the towers actually fell. No one could ever have foreseen that.

Patrick

Hypertweeky

Bush and his administration don't EVER get surprise.. and I bet quit talking now.. I don't want to get in trouble..

kanch

Amen to you man !!!!!!! NOLA_Dave
Finally somebody said it and said it Right

Hypertweeky

AMEN Patrick!!, Spain has been dealing with terrorism for a long time as well (by the way we work with the British and French goverment!!) and even though we stop a lot of their attacks, sometimes we can't keep them from attacking..
A mess!! (well said Lad!!)

Susie

Thank you for that link.... I'm curious to read more... do you have more links on the subject... also, it seems that mostly the Americans that have never travelled abroad and live in their little naive American bubble are the ones who are most easily led like sheep. They think 'their reality', that has been fed to them by the 'media' and insulated little communities they live in, - is actually how the world is.... add a bit of fear created by the government and VOILA! you have 51% of Americans who will vote for someone that everyone else in the world can clearly see for what he is but the frightened sheep think he is leading them to safety....

Didn't the Nazi's tell the Jew's that they were going into a shower to clean up once they got to the concentration camps... so they eagerly filed into the 'shower building' only to be gassed once the doors were shut? Hmmm....

When I was in the UK last month on vacation... it really struck me, the images of the "war" in Iraq were much different than what we see here. The images of the Iraqi children with guts hanging out, limbs blown off, etc. Funny how those images don't seem to make it into our living rooms the way they do every where else in the world? Hmmm....

NOLA_Dave

The job of the President of the United States is to protect the UNITED STATES. It's not a world-wide popularity contest, whick Kerry seemed to thing it was. He was going to get world support for Iraq? He was just going to flounder. We handle our problems the way we want to. Because we're strong enough to do that, the world gets annoyed.

Well, I just have to say I really don't care.

And as far as genocide in Africa is concerned: that's a matter of civil war. Hussein stopped all civil war in Iraq a while back with chemical weapons. His sights were trained outside his borders, not within. That's why he was a global threat and why the troubles in Africa, while tragic, are not our problem. The Africans haven't tried to assassinate our people. The Africans haven't developed biological weapons programs and delivery systems. Whenever they get a dictator that threatens US safetly, then we'll worry about it.

Arrogant? Yes. Why do we care what other countries think? We try to help others in the world (do we not dish out more free aid than all other countries combined?), and we get it thrown back in our face. And yet, we still dish out the aid. The rest of the world doesn't care about the welfare of America, but America cares about the welfare of much of the world. I for one just really don't care. I'm a nationalist, and if the only country left on the planet was the US, I would be perfectly happy. Do I want to destroy all of the other countries and live in an American Paradise? Of course not. I'm just saying I really don't care how they feel about us or what happens to them. If they threaten us, they get on our bad side. Otherwise, we keep enough diplomatic ties open for trade and general good will. We want to be the good neighbor, but we're not going to compromise anything doing it.

Why does Europe care so much about what America does? I would like an answer to that question, because I would honestly like to know.

And to some of you guys: please, stop watching so many reruns of the X-Files. It's just sad.

Susie

Well if that is his job, I think 9/11 proved he wasn't doing his job. Did you watch the 9/11 commission? did you see what Bush said under oath? Oh wait a sec... it was in private so no one could hear or see and he refused to be under oath... hmmm...


No he wasn't... because there wasn't enough justification for it... that's why no one else would go for it.... DUH! And lo behold.... they didn't find any WMD! I wonder why? Because there weren't any? or maybe they were too busy building the lucrative oil pipeline that the US has had their sights on for years before the whole 9/11 thing.

Hmmm... kinda like North Korea? I wonder why we haven't attacked them yet? Hmmm...

I think your own words sum up it up best.

Because in the rest of the world they realize that we are all on the same planet and we are one human race... only in America have we fostered the arrogance and superiority complex that only WE matter and everyone else can go to hell. It's exactly this mentality that has allowed Bush and his administration to get away with everything they have over the past few years.

I think it's ironic that the one state, Washington DC, where all the politicians who know what's actually going on in politics voted 90% for Kerry. I had a good chuckle when I saw those stats on CNN on election night.

inquisitive40

Do you really believe Saddam had WMDs? OR that the Bush Admin believed he had? It is/was oil, nothing more nothing less, oil to power your SUV, if the US were the only country on the planet, then everyone would be walking.

Why does Europe have an interest in the US? That is like saying "why does a parent have interest in their child", the European immigrants were the founding fathers (or conquerors, depending on the perspective) and so of course they are gonna be interested BUT also there has been a relationship between the US and Europe since the first European set foot in America.

If you actually believe that the US could survive without world trade then you must be living in a nice little cabin in the hills.

Your comments are just depressing, nothing more

Patrick

ian-mstm

Excuse me... who died and made you god of all wisdom and TV viewing? Why don't you crawl back under your xenophobic rock and live happily ever after.

Ian

Bluegrass Lass

He didn't do a very good job did he? And since when does 'protecting' the US mean that we have to have a 'get them before they get us' attitude? I'm not saying that we should let another Hitler develop again, but I feel that we should only attack another country when we know conclusively that they plan on attacking us. I want to know why our gov't feels that we are the only ones allowed to have WMD? Why cannot other countries have these to protect themselves as well? They deserve the feeling of security as well - though I have to say that having nukes does not make me feel any more secure/protected in my home - if anything, it makes me feel less secure.

If there was any election that was seen as a popularity contest, it was the 2000 elections. If you'll remember, Kerry conceded without taking the results to the courts.

We'll never find out how Kerry would have gotten support since he did not win. I think it's hasty to make the conclusion that he would flounder since we don't know what could have been.

And what happens when we are not strong enough to handle our own problems. And unfortunately, if we have problems, they usually affect the rest of the world, so why wouldn't it annoy them? It is well known that every great country (or Republic if you like the word) has failed because of corruption/greed/failure from within. We are failing at making the changes necessary to ensure our country survives into the future - healthcare, education, employment opportunities - we are not #1 in any of those anymore.

I can agree with this to a certain degree. Yes, we do more to help others than other countries do and get it slapped back in our faces, and that truly annoys me. But it's our arrogant, superior, obnoxious, imperialistic approach that causes us to get slapped. We Americans need to learn that we have to share this planet since it's the only one we have, and we need to learn to get along with others and to share (like they teach us in Kindergarten). And we absolutely cannot force our ideals down another people's throats. Yes, dictatorships, monarchies & religiously run gov'ts are not 100% right, but if the gov't is taking care of the people, who are we to say that "you are wrong and we are right" and tell everyone to choose democracy.

What constitutes "enough diplomatic ties"? At this rate, Bush will have destroyed most of them by the time he's out of office. There is so much more I'd like to say to this statement, but I don't have the time or the ability to put it into words at this moment. I will have to try again later.

NOLA_Dave

Ok, well, I've obviously done my job here.

Sorry for taking things to the extreme. Since I know this is an international board, I just wanted to see what kind of reaction I could get.

I honestly want to know what the world thinks of us, and the best way to do it is to see what you way when you are angry. Sorry for pushing a few buttons.

Here is my honest opinions about these matters. I really do support Bush, but obviously not 100%. Because of the big picture, including social issues and my personal support of laissez faire, I vote Republican. I think Kerry had some wonderful ideas, and I think Bush would be wise to adopt them. However, my personal values make me favor a more religious president. That's my personal opinon, that's why I vote that way.

Of course, in today's society, we must act together as a united humanity. It is a shame there is so much blind hatred, on all sides, that causes the majority of the problems. I think Bush made a mistake unilaterally going after Hussein. However, I do support the war in Iraq. Yes, there were no WMD, and there is no disputing that. But to be honest, it was simply because allied efforts to pen him in since Gulf War I were effective. I'm sure he wanted to have the weapons, but knew if he got caught with them, he'd be out of power. I'm sure he was still formulating ways to build them under the radar. That's probably why our intelligence analysts *thought* he had them, since Hussein was probably talking about WMD a lot, but not able to build them yet. I firmly believe Hussein had nothing to do with September 11, and that he more than likely had no al Queda on the premises. al Queda are religious fundamentalists, and in Iraq, the only god was Hussein. However, I also believe that if left unchecked, Hussein and some terrorists would have gotten in bed together eventually. Maybe a place to hide out, maybe some extra weapons, maybe some leftover anthrax. The terrorists would compromise their beliefs to further their terrorist agenda (drinking alcohol, shaving beards, etc. to blend in), and they would probably accept Hussein's help. Do I have proof? No. But Hussein was no saint, and I think the preemptive strike was appropriate. To be honest, they should have taken him out in 1991. This is simply 13 years overdue. And in my naivete: I really, honestly think oil was not the major deciding factor in this war. A factor? Probably. The driving force? I really think it is a sense of justice. You can take that for what it's worth.

I do think Bush went in assuming the Iraqis would welcome us with open arms, and he failed to plan on what to do if they didn't. I am dissapointed by the Iraqis, but not surprised. Even I admit it smacks of American imperialism, but I do believe we want to leave as soon as possible. As soon as the Iraqis realize we don't want to stay any more than they want us to be there, hopefully they'll quell the insurgency and get on with rebuilding. We're trying to hand them freedom, but they don't want to accept it because it's coming from Amercians. I wish I had an answer to that dilema.

As far as the state of our alliances with Europe, I am sad they have deteriorated. I personally feel that Europoe is a bit too liberal, a bit too socialist, but that is a matter of personal taste. As much as you feel we are backwards for, say, opposing gay marriage, we feel Europe is dissolving into a moral decay that will have devastating effects on society in the years to come. Those are differences in social opinion. However, that should not effect how we view each other as allies that stand for freedom and democracy in a world where the majority do not share the rights we do.

I don't think Kerry was going to do anything effective to fix our relationship with the world, except possibly grovel, which is unacceptable. But, I feel as the situation in Iraq sorts itself out, and the peace process in Palestine starts up again (with that terrorist Arafat dead, we can start again), we will once again find that we have more in common with our European friends than differences. There will always be things we don't like about each other, but variety is the spice of life.

I also feel that the "Patriot Act", a dubious name to be sure, does go to extremes. I do think it was necessary at first to ferret out some of the most tenaciously entrenched terrorists, but should have sunset when it was supposed to. Still, as a lowly, law-abiding average Joe, I'm not too worried about it. They only people who have to worry are those doing something illegal. Time and the ACLU will make sure things don't get too out of hand. And if they do? That's what the second amendment is for (gun rights). It's not to allow us to protect ourselves from burglars. It to allow us to protect ourselves from government out of control. I'm not joking about this. It is to protect our right to armed revolt if we feel the government has gone too far. That is a rather extreme view, I admit. But realize, I'm talking about a rather extreme situation, something like sustained martial law and a total lockdown of freedoms. Some kind of situation where elections are suspended, etc., where the only recourse is armed revolution. It should never happen if we take the time to watch our government, but I'm still glad we have the option. Sorry about the sidebar, but anyway, I'm not too worried about the Patriot Act yet.

Finally, to all of the conspiracy theorists out there: do you really think our government has the *ability* to hide all of this stuff? We complain about how incompetent they are, then turn around and say how they can organize better than the Illuminati? If the President has the power to conceal aliens, Kennedy, etc, don't you think he'd use that power to save his own butt? Why would Nixon allow Woodward and Burnstein to out him? He could just have their lives erased, just like the movies! Oh, wait, no, he can't. Our government can do anything right. If you told me Haliburton was hiding aliens, I might belive you, but not the US government. Come on guys, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Ok, sorry for the long post, but to sum up: I am conservative, I do support Bush. I do think America is a great country, but that is nationalism. Hopefully, everyone thinks their country is a great country. If not, you need to fix something. But I also realize America is part of the world, and not the center of it. I do think we have a right to protect our interests and ourselves, but that we also need to take into consideration other countries. On the issue of Iraq, imminent attack by WMDs aside, I think it was the right decision. And now, what's done is done. We need to move on with the future, not keep dwelling on the past. I am conservative, probably still extreme to some of you, but not quite as extreme as what my previous posts would leave you to believe.

We're in a tight fix, and Bush put us there. But at the end of the day, I think he can get us out of it better than Kerry could have.