Re: Minimum wage
 

Agreed. I rarely say what my job actually is, and if asked usually say what it was that I start my career doing, more than twenty years ago.

The funny thing, from my perspective, is that while making observations, comments, or asking questions about personal traits or characteristics is generally socially unacceptable, I find it curious that people will ask about accents and more especially about someone's height, but only if they're tall. You wouldn't comment on someone being fat, thin, or short, so why do people think it OK to make comments to someone who is tall? Personally I don't give a stuff if someone asks, but I just find it odd that they do (ask), when nobody but a socially inept nitwit would say "My, aren't you short. How short are you?", or "Good heavens, aren't you fat?". :unsure:

Re: Minimum wage
 

It started ending long before the Thatcher era. In the 1960-1970s, the Japanese started manufacturing products at a very low cost since the Yen/US$ exchange rate was a very high 280:1 which was undervalued by about 50%-60%. Then in the 1980s, the Koreans, Indonesians, and Malaysians started to displace the Japanese as the Yen rose and those currencies were undervalued. Then the Chinese displaced the others with an undervalued currency. Now the cheap place with undervalued currencies to make products is Vietnam and Bangladesh.

There has been a race to the bottom that has been taking place for the past 50+ years.

Re: Minimum wage
 

But the attitude?

Re: Minimum wage
 

I don't think attitudes have changed significantly other than the well paying blue collar jobs have been lost and therefore some people assume that there must be decent paying blue collar jobs since there always was when they were younger. Therefore they may assume that people aren't trying hard enough.

However I will admit that people seem to have less tolerance now than in the 1960s when they see a high paid blue collar worker not accomplishing his/her job.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Certainly the level of expectations rose, and it is much harder to raise them that drop them.

There has been a cascade of changes over the years, technology in the 60's, move to the service sector in the 70's, then IT bubble and now what?

You could envisage a rational balance, but seems most unlikely.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Well for most of the low paid workforce, turning off the tap supplying virtually unlimited low-cost/low-skill labour would help, allowing the price of labour to reflect it's scarcity. But neither political party, nor the Fed seems willing to allow that to happen. Instead of restricting supply and allowing market forces to take care of the resulting "labour shortage", many politicians want to try to force the market price of labour up despite the fact that the supply- demand imbalance will only get worse, and exacerbate unemployment in the process.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Have expectations risen or is it primarily that the well paying blue collar jobs have disappeared and many parents don't think their children will be better off then they were?

I think many people have assumed that each following generation will be better off than the previous generation and that dream appears to be dying in most developed countries. Therefore parents may push harder or even make discouraging remarks.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Yes I guess that's part of it.

Re: Minimum wage
 

But that type of government is primarily 3rd world where there are a few wealthy and 90+% are working for less than $2 per day. If you also look at the tax rate as a percentage of many 3rd world countries, it is very low since the only people that have money are the wealthy few and they have the power and don't want to spend money on education, health, and infrastructure for the masses.

If that was implemented in developed countries, I suspect there would also be a lot of $2 per day workers as businessmen cuts costs by finding the cheapest labor available. It would be the race to the bottom for many since someone will always do something cheaper than someone else if they are starving. Then shanty towns are created as that is all anyone can afford. All you have to do is look at Tijuana to see how well that system works.

Re: Minimum wage
 

I think you entirely missed my oblique reference to illegal immigration. I was sure that you'd have a comeback and criticism of my admittedly simplified analysis, but you appear to have got entirely the wrong end of the stick. :unsure:

Re: Minimum wage
 

Not sure about that, but I guess the biggest issue is that the current older generation are living off non replaceable accumulated wealth/borrowings which will diminish significantly over time.

So many Government programmes for example rely on the current tax payer coughing up for past liabilities and that only works if the wealth curve is going up.

The NHS is a classic example, but all Western Countries have this issue of unfunded liabilities. Some far worse than the UK.

Quite what happens when it all starts crashing is another issue.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Or those who look down on trash collectors picking up their weekly trash. Funny thing is many who look down on these kinds of jobs make the same or less then those they are looking down on, but they have a fancy sounding title so they think they are better.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Apologies, I misread your post. But if supply and demand is the primary criteria for the cost of labor, then that also applies to low wage workers.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Fancy titles are certainly booming.

Re: Minimum wage
 

It is being implemented, the first step was moving jobs abroad. It has picked up pace.

My first job I was dealing with a company that made clothes for M&S, at that time I think all the clothing was made in the UK, now none of it is.

I worked in the Insurance sector, that was one of the growth areas, but even before I left many of the back office functions that had been moved out of London were moved overseas.

They had Gladiator on the TV last night, you can only appease the mob for so long, you run out of bread.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Exactly, you can not outsource all jobs, which is why many support Immigration Reform.

Re: Minimum wage
 

It's funny how those who claim to have the interests of the low paid at heart are often those who who are least willing to help cut the supply of cheap labour, which would push up the pay rates up for those on the lowest pay, and also help the unemployed. :rolleyes:

Re: Minimum wage
 

Although economists didn't expect for the vast increase in life expectancy, a second problem also occurred that they didn't expect which made the problem far worst.

Economists assumed that developed countries would grow at a specific real gdp rate and the projected growth rate was pretty accurate and what they expected was that the benefit from the gdp growth would be more evenly distributed which didn't occur. If the benefits from gdp growth had been more evenly distributed, the problems you described would be significantly reduced.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Overall that's not true. In the 1980's, both the democrats and republicans supported an immigration reform bill that had a high F2 quota with strict sanctions against employers that hired undocumented workers. However the Chamber of Commerce, the farm lobby, the hospitality lobby, and the construction lobby all opposed the strict sanctions against employers and the republican party folded. Now the same republican party is complaining about a failed immigration law.

The democratic party wants to put in those strict sanctions in the current porposed bill. Illegal immigrants from poor countries will never stop crossing the border in masses without those strict sanctions in place. Also with an F2 visa, the worker can file grievances instead of just accepting the abuse that many employers hand out since they know they won't be reported.

Re: Minimum wage
 

I don't think that economists foresaw the massive inflows of cheap labour, both legal and otherwise, that have flooded into North America, the UK, and Western Europe, either. The effect of that flood of cheap labour on holding down pay rates was almost entirely felt by the lowest paid and unskilled workers.

Re: Minimum wage
 

I'll agree since construction used to be a good paying job in the 1960s and 1970s and people could actually make a living as a farm hand.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Mathematicians if they had been consulted would have mentioned that such a process was impossible.

I do not recollect any discussions of distribution but a Historian might mention that this had not previously occurred so why now?

Re: Minimum wage
 

The corollary is that a strictly-enforced minimum wage would drastically cut down on illegal immigration.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Not sure how that would make any difference.

Strictly enforced work places would but that is fanciful to say the least.

Re: Minimum wage
 

And conversely, strictly enforced immigration laws and border security would push up pay rates for low skill labour.

Also prosecuting employers and managers for hiring illegal immigrants would largely eliminate the demand for labour from illegal immigrants. You wouldn't have to lock up many managers, owners, and directors before the word would get around.

What's actually needed is all of the above.

Re: Minimum wage
 

And the chance of that happening?

Re: Minimum wage
 

Approximately zero. :(

Re: Minimum wage
 

That high?

It is interesting to see how much effort is wasted on totally unrealistic proposals.

Re: Minimum wage
 

E-verify

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10/10 for the plan.

8/10 for the implementation.

½/10 for the operation. :thumbdown:

Re: Minimum wage
 

If the 1980s immigration reform bill that originally came out of committee was passed, we wouldn't have this problem now. I'll give you 5:1 odds that if a new immigration reform bill is passed, the same lobbies that watered down employer sanctions will get the republicans to water down the new immigration reform bill. After all, the republican party's primary concern is to make sure businesses are successful and profitable so that their success will "trickle down" to the masses.

Re: Minimum wage
 

They just can't get their story straight.

Re: Minimum wage
 

E-verify accomplishes very little since the penalty for not complying is a maximum of $2,000 and the government has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (even though the penalty is not criminal) each case for each undocumented worker. And even if the employer is fined, the penalty doesn't increase for future violations.

It is profitable for some businesses to hire undocumented workers since they don't have to follow labor laws (undocumented workers aren't going to file a complaint) and the chance of getting caught and fined is very small

Re: Minimum wage
 

Those odds are not very generous.

I would put it somewhat akin to me playing for the US in the next World Cup.

Re: Minimum wage
 

I am related to a retired politician of whom is a democrat, and neither party really wants reform, they talk but don't want lose Hispanic votes by appearing to be too tough on immigration and that really is the issue, politicians don't want to piss off a large % of voters, a good amount of whom don't vote for a certain party, but said party will need in the future to win certain states.

Re: Minimum wage
 

I disagree. In the 1950s and 1960s, the US issued a large number of F2A visas primarily to Mexicans. Most of the Mexicans came seasonally and returned home and were very happy with that arrangement. When undocumented Mexican workers were asked, most prefer that system since many would rather live in Mexico which they consider their home.

Currently there isn't any cap on H-2A visas but only about 55,000 are issued annually since most farm employers find it cheaper and easier to hire undocumented workers.:ohmy:

So currently about 12 million illegal aliens but only 55,000 H-2A visas.:nod: Therefore if conservatives really wanted to solve the border problem and undocumented workers, there has to be teeth in any bill with strict employer sanctions.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Just in case pigs fly and he took me up on that bet, I didn't want to risk the farm.:egyptian:

Re: Minimum wage
 

The issue though is not pissing off the illegal Mexicans, but pissing off the legal Mexicans who can vote. Just mentioning immigration reform and screams of racism come out.

At the end of the day its the legal ones who can vote that matter.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Again, I disagree. Most seem to want immigration reform but a fair immigration reform. From everything I have read, this is basically what they want.

• Pathway to citizenship for those that have lived in the US for years.
• Visas for needed workers and will accept strict sanctions against employers that hire undocumented workers.

Re: Minimum wage
 

The number involved with Agriculture is tiny, but the end of that programme was of course due to the Unions.