Re: Minimum wage
 

Also most people would eventually like to have a family, with the current situation where social mobility is restricted, they are effectively being told to slog away on minimum wage forever without being able to afford that.

Re: Minimum wage
 

The dream is very restricted nowadays.

Re: Minimum wage
 

There is a lot of complexity in Silicon Valley projects, few require a new low level protocol, and I was paid a very good salary. I worked on embedded software, OS development (internals), VPN, networking, and many other engineering jobs. None take a lot of specialized background and embedded software for me was probably one of the easiest since I had 15 years of hardware background before I went into software engineering. Since that time, embedded software has become more complicated such as graphics cards but I wouldn't specialize in that since it doesn't interest me, it's repetitive, and eventually it will likely be a dead end job (knowledge of graphics internals is probably not very transferable to other jobs). By working on almost everything, I had a lot of fun and was able to keep my interest high.

One of the most complicated projects was putting two different operating systems together that were written in two different languages. All you have to do is understand how each of the two different operating systems work and after that, write about 100,000 lines of code that is bullet proof. Another relatively complicated project was changing an operating system that worked with linear memory (8006) to segmented memory (80286) to allow for expanded memory addressing. I even worked on one of the 1st implementations of cloud computing (wasn't called that at the time) but hardware and communications was so slow that it wasn't useful.

When I worked on the VPN project, an Indian on a H1-B visa with a master degree specializing in encryption was supposed to develop about 1,000 lines of code to interface to the encryption API but he mucked everything up so badly that I took over his code when he went on vacation, doubled the size to add desired features, and fixed all the problems. There was no need for someone with a master's degree specializing in encryption for that code. He may have understood encryption but he had extremely limited coding and trouble shooting abilities. To assume that someone with a specialized education will be productive is more often the opposite of what I've seen.

I wouldn't consider a median income of $120K-$130K plus stock options plus bonus in the Silicon Valley is low wage. 15 years ago, I retired with a base salary of $150K and I wasn't even a manager since I thought management jobs sucked (at one time I was a manager and it did suck).

Re: Minimum wage
 

Restricted to those who have an aversion to hard work, This is still the land of Opportunity , there is plenty of work out there and our economy is showing it. So big woop Prince & Princess have to work 40 + hours to make ends meet, educate yourselves to a higher position and salary or learn a new trade. Otherwise shut the hell up, you are a worker Bee, nothing wrong with being a worker Bee BTW. Nobody owes you a damn thing except your Mother & Father who chose to bring you into this world. If you want more out of life, bust a nut and make it happen, do not count on me as Joe Taxpayer to fund your lifestyle.
The world is what we make of it, the sooner we teach our Kids this lesson a better world we shall live in.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Isn't that the point though, 'Joe Taxpayer' is subsidising the employers paying low wages.

Re: Minimum wage
 

But if the minimum wage is raised too high where it causes the job participation rate to drop, then "Joe Taxpayer" pays even more since there will be even more people and a larger amount that the government needs to pay for benefits.

I'm not against raising the minimum wage but there is a fine line where raising it too much can be very detrimental to the economy as well as the taxpayer.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Yes indeed. The new american dream seems to be work for as little money as possible, have little if any vacation, expensive healthcare and so on.

I just don't know anyone personally who is not struggling in the US, some have degrees, some don't so its a mix of different educations and skill levels, but all struggle with making more then 12-13 per hour. All live in San Diego and that wage there is not sufficient to meet ones needs.

I didn't see it at the time, and it was not planned and just kind of happened as I fell for a Canadian, but looking back, I probably have better life here then I would back home, the healthcare alone would be financially crippling, let alone housing, food, and all that jazz.

You can say low wage people don't work hard (you as in general not anyone specifically) and that is why they don't get ahead, but hard work alone will not get you anywhere, and plenty of low wage people work hard, some working multiple jobs and spending little time at home, but if your with an employer who has no desire to pay a reasonable wage, no amount of hard work is going to get you ahead.

Re: Minimum wage
 

But what is the solution? The same is occurring throughout the developed world as the world became a global economy and technology made that possible. Overall the US is no worse off than most other developed countries where it's median income has a similar relationship to other developed countries as it had 20-30 years ago. The US may have lost some ground against some countries such as Norway but has held it's ground against countries such as Switzerland, Germany, UK, and Canada and has gained against countries such as France, Japan, Spain, and Italy. Unless someone discovers a magic bullet or in the case of countries such as Canada, Australia, and Norway which has excess natural resources to export that drives the economy or a tax haven economy, there is very little that can be done.

Educating people better will help a bit but there are only so many high paying jobs and all developed economies need a large number of workers to provide basic services. The only thing that would have a major impact would be to create good paying manufacturing jobs that exports products but with so many countries that will perform those jobs for a very low wage, that is going to be a difficult task to accomplish. Very few people will be willing to pay even 10% more for a product made in their country if they can find the same product but 10% less and made in another country.

Countries can try economics like Japan but that obviously doesn't work since the country has basically been in a 20+ year recession and went from a surplus to a national debt of nearly 250% of gdp.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Here is an example of government subsiding because of low wages.

Employee earns 15,000 in a year.

Is considered low income so gets 100% premium subsidy. $1,506 per year.

Receives almost everything back at tax filing time $1,500

Receives a sales tax credit due to low income, paid every quarter. $912

Receives 100% covered medication. $2,760

Receives $570 rent subsidy due to high rental costs in the region. $6,840

Total direct payments from government for being low income: $13,518

This was for a childless adult couple, 1 working, 1 not working due to disability and unable to work.

I'll take out the 1,500 tax refund since its technically persons income, but that still leaves 12,080 in direct government assistance.

I don't know what the solution is, but low wage jobs only save a company money, and the government ends up on the hook for the rest so people don't end up homeless and starving.

You can certainly tell when dollar stores are the fastest growing retailer in a country that more and more people are hurting. I am kind of scared for the future, especially when my generation goes into retirement in 30-40 years and have insufficient retirement or none at all since companies have largely stopped offering that benefit as well. I certainly won't have the money to retire, so once my health fades and I can't work, I'll be reliant on the government. Not something I planned on doing, but even with schooling, I am only looking at 15-18 per hour.

Re: Minimum wage
 

My first thought was that Medical looks low, but a good illustration as to what constitutes means, not just wages.

I think the confusion is that there had been a move after WW2 to a significant part of the population moving up the food chain.

All these thing are relative but my thoughts is that there is a limited demand for these roles and as things have averaged out world wide then the wage distribution has gone back to a more normal historical pattern.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Good for you! Good luck.

I remember reading another thread where you said it was maths that got you stuck in the past. And I also remember reading that Pulaski said your writing skills were good, so it seemed like you were degree material. I agree with that. I am sure you can find degrees where math is at a minimum. And also, perhaps you should get yourself evaluated for dyscalculia. If you do have that, perhaps you can get an exemption.

Re: Minimum wage
 

You must be joking.
I get the feeling people have kids because they are idiots or because it helps them get various government benefits.

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Awww pppleease! It's not about the efficacy of the methods - I'm guessing for about 80% of "unwanted" pregnancies - but about the stupidity of the people. They either weren't using the/any method, or were using it incorrectly.

Re: Minimum wage
 

How do you think the standards of basic education factors into all this? Whenever I interact with people I am guessing are earning minimum wage in the USA, with the rare very pleasant exception, I always get the feeling that the person is rather stupid. (Sorry, I really don't mean to offend anyone). So assuming that the person wasn't inherently stupid but just became stupid due to lack of better education, do you think that raising the standard of basic education can help with the dilemma of minimum wages?

I don't know. I'm just asking.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Try a trip to the DMV, which is not minimum wage.

Re: Minimum wage
 

So you're saying even people not on min wage can be stupid? So what's your point? (I don't want to make it for you)

Re: Minimum wage
 

From what I have come across the correlation is limited.

Re: Minimum wage
 

To raise the minimum wage significantly, you have to raise the standard of living for the middle class.

There is said to be over 3 million jobs currently available and many are highly paid blue collar jobs. Unfortunately the skills in the workforce don't match the skills needed for those positions and also unfortunately, companies don't want the expense of training people on their products. Although there may be many machinists out of work and there may be many machinist positions open, the skill sets are not an exact match so the jobs remain unfilled.

At one time a computer technician could make a decent living but now technical schools still train technicians but it is very difficult to make a decent living being a technician. With computers being so cheap and depreciate very quickly, paying $200-$300 to repair a computer usually doesn't make much sense and even at that price, often the technician makes very little per hour after costs for parts, communications with the customer, and invoicing.

Others get college degrees that does not have job prospects so they end up working in low paying jobs.

As I stated, improving or changing the educational system will help but not to a significant degree.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Because everyone lives in a perfect world.

And education isn't really the answer, when you're paying off over $100K student debt that isn't forgiven while one's unemployed and can't even get a minimum wage job for being "over qualified".

Re: Minimum wage
 

Minimum wage around here, means someone that has a kid, to afford rent and childcare would need to work at least 3 jobs and do about 100 hours to barely break even....and that's pretty much rent.

I think you live with your head in the clouds.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Yep, has happened to me, and is the reason I cannot go to school until next year if the government approves me for loans, they may very well say no.

I know few people who can pay the average 4 to 6k a semester out of pocket that a public college costs around here. ( costs vary by major and program.)

If one only makes 15,000 a year full-time, how can they possibly pay 8k a year for school?

Re: Minimum wage
 

At one time it was pretty easy to discharge student loans in bankruptcy in the US but in the 1990s, congress passed a law making it more difficult to discharge student loans. Student loans can now only be discharged in bankruptcy if there is "undue hardship" and the purpose of the law was to stop doctors, lawyers, etc. from discharging student loans right out of school while they were still broke. The concept of the law was good but the "undue hardship" part was poorly written and the courts have strictly interpreted that part making it very difficult to discharge student loans.

Although it is very difficult to discharge student loans through bankruptcy, many just default on payments but since the default rate is so high due to the recession, republicans want to double the interest rate to make up for the large default rate. I'm sure that would work out real well causing the default rate to double or triple.:rolleyes:

Re: Minimum wage
 

It's similar here, generally student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy, and even if you go bankrupt and the loans are not included it can prevent you from getting anymore loans.

The interest if I recall correctly is prime + 2% on the government loans here, could be off a bit, but i think its something around there.

Re: Minimum wage
 

You are joking, you like the sound of your own voice on this thread and offer nothing but fluff. Do not come to America expecting UK style child benefits.

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You're right. It (mine) was a silly question.

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They should have made bankruptcy a bar to holding a professional license, it would have stopped such gaming of the system by potentially high-paid professionals. ..... I certainly wouldn't want to hire a lawyer or accountant who managed his own business affairs so badly that he/she went bankrupt.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Actually that could be described as running them well.

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That's what Donald Trump thinks. He's gone bankrupt at least 3 times and still thinks he is "gods" gift to the business community and the "smartest" person you'll ever know.:blink:

Re: Minimum wage
 

Assuming most Students on graduating have nothing in the way of assets and lots of debt then that would be an excellent time to clear the slate, if it was possible.

The problem is more a system that wants students to load up on debt, that seemingly many will never be able to repay. Not sure what the US numbers are but the UK forecast is nearing 50%.

Re: Minimum wage
 

When did we actually start demonising people who just have ordinary jobs? My grandparents generation were not considered pariahs for working at the same level all their lives. I guess the Thatcher era in the UK.

Re: Minimum wage
 

I agree with this - a society is built on the menial jobs. No one to stack selves, or hand you your McDonalds, or wait on your table etc.

I get this where I work - all the other departments, CNAs, Nurse and Doctors, all look down on my housekeepers and maintenance staff as not doing anything of value. As a result, they treat my staff like crap. Well if your floors were covered in blood, or poop, or you were hip deep in trash, you'd have trouble operating on patients wouldn't you?

Re: Minimum wage
 

It wasnt that long ago everyone went to school knowing they were going to leave and work down the pit with their dad. It was a living along with a few pints on a Friday night and a weeks annual holiday down to Butlins Barry Island.

I'm glad the thatcher era put a stop to that misery.

But i don't agree with demonizing people because they have ordinary jobs. The parents who insist their daughter dates a doctor or a lawyer for example, nasty.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Other than right wing conservatives, I don't think most people are demonizing people who work ordinary jobs. When I was young, most of my relatives and neighbors worked in the mines which were considered a good paying blue collar jobs and those high paid workers supported high pay for retail jobs and other service employees. Unfortunately many of the higher paid blue collar jobs have disappeared from developed economies creating a sub class among many retail jobs and service workers.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Yes, we are losing sight of the value of those jobs, and think the people who do them are less than human in that they do not deserve a certain standard of living.
That's true, the economy has changed, and therefore the political clout those groups had has largely gone.

Re: Minimum wage
 

ALL of them? How sad.
I think that speaks to their own quality as human beings. What gives one person the right to look down on someone else regardless of whoever/whatever they are.

I did mention earlier in the thread about "stupidity", but don't get me wrong. I would never ever look down on anybody.

Re: Minimum wage
 

It is not just the political clout but when the workface to make a million cars has decreased to about 1/5th compared to 40 years ago, there is not enough highly paid blue collar jobs to support the retail and services industry employees at decent salaries.

Some believe that developed economies can become a service oriented economy and provide jobs but unfortunately without the highly paid blue collar jobs or high tech areas like the Silicon Valley, salaries will remain low for those workers.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Well not everyone, I was a little unfair there, but it does seem to be the prevailing view.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying most of these people are capable of brain surgery, but even if you are of low intelligence it dosen't mean you deserve to be treated like crap.

Re: Minimum wage
 

Or Rocket Science?

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Exactly. Nobody does.

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Looking down on or taking the piss out of someone because of their low income or low intelligence is not socially acceptable.

However

Looking down on or taking the piss out of someone because of their high income or high intelligence is socially acceptable.

The amount of times i've given my job title when asked in a social situation and gotten awkward remarks : flashy, geeky, whats that then? Oh your alright jack then etc etc etc.
I often find it easier to dumb down my job title to something simpler, more acceptable and that doesn't result in a bunch of follow up questions.