High speed rail - Will it work here?
Jun 3rd 2009 | 9:53 am
#16
Just Joined
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 10
From: Charlotte
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
It will definitely work over here - and is sorely needed. See Michael Moore's latest blog (making inter alia, some good points):
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/me...dex.php?id=248
The reason it hasn't happened is a combo of lack of government stimulus/interest and the stranglehold the internal combustion engine industry has exerted over the lawmakers in Congress.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/me...dex.php?id=248
The reason it hasn't happened is a combo of lack of government stimulus/interest and the stranglehold the internal combustion engine industry has exerted over the lawmakers in Congress.
Jun 3rd 2009 | 10:24 am
#17
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 13,212
From: San Francisco
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
The distances between major conurbations in California (San Diego, LA, SF, Sacramento) are similar to those where high speed rail has been successful in Europe. Ditto for Texas and the northeast corridor. I do agree that longer journeys wouldn't make economic sense as compared to air travel.
Jun 3rd 2009 | 10:27 am
#18
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 13,212
From: San Francisco
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
I think one of the major reasons that US Cities are like empty souless ghost towns past 6pm is that people whom fancy a pint have to drive home from a bar unless they just go to a local bar in their suburb......
No offense, but European Cities are thriving till 11pm....... because people can go into the cities, socialise and still get home again without having to drive.
No offense, but European Cities are thriving till 11pm....... because people can go into the cities, socialise and still get home again without having to drive.
Jun 3rd 2009 | 1:46 pm
#19
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,678
From: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
The federal government is willing to spend up to $13 billion ($8 billion from the stimulus bill, plus another billion each year for the next five years).
That is just seed money. The heavy rail (BART) 16 mile extension from Fremont to San Jose, CA is expected to cost about $8 billion (about $500 million per mile). Even the San Jose light rail system (VTA) costs about $40 million per mile.
According to the map, it looks like the proposed system will contain about 5,000 miles of tracks. Even if it could be built as cheaply as the light rail system, it would cost about $200 billion but if the costs were the same as the heavy rail system, it would cost over $2 trillion.
That is just seed money. The heavy rail (BART) 16 mile extension from Fremont to San Jose, CA is expected to cost about $8 billion (about $500 million per mile). Even the San Jose light rail system (VTA) costs about $40 million per mile.
According to the map, it looks like the proposed system will contain about 5,000 miles of tracks. Even if it could be built as cheaply as the light rail system, it would cost about $200 billion but if the costs were the same as the heavy rail system, it would cost over $2 trillion.
Jun 3rd 2009 | 2:43 pm
#20
I approved this message
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,425
From: Chicago
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
Rail doesn't even work in Europe or Japan without large government subsidies, which of course means they don't work there either. European countries and Japan have with much higher population densities than the US, much shorter distances between major population centers, car unfriendly tax structures and much more established rail infrastructures. Even with all of that, passenger rail apparently counts for maybe 5% of passenger miles travelled in Europe while cars account for the vast majority (page 102)
There no way in hell passenger rail will ever make sense here. It's like spending money on fusion reactors: nice idea, no way in hell it will make sense.
There no way in hell passenger rail will ever make sense here. It's like spending money on fusion reactors: nice idea, no way in hell it will make sense.
Jun 3rd 2009 | 2:47 pm
#21
I approved this message
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,425
From: Chicago
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
Agree completely. I've recently been to several major European cities and the difference in vibrancy during the evening between them and most US cities is quite stunning. I'm sure the excellent public transport in places like Paris and London is a string contributor to the difference. Only Manhattan approaches it over here imo.
Jun 3rd 2009 | 3:16 pm
#22
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 740
From: Cornwall >>> Marin, CA >>> Cornwall!
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
I laughed when they mentioned trains might attain 110 miles per hour!
High speed indeed.
High speed indeed.
Jun 3rd 2009 | 7:13 pm
#23
And YOU'RE paying for it!
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,328
From: kipper tie?
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
Point of order: the rail service between Boston/NYC/DC isn't first class only. The Acela is a class of train that runs on that route, but there are other "regional" trains which are slower only by about 30 minutes. Also, the fares are pretty reasonable: $60-70 between NYC and DC is not unusual.
What's more is that if it were high-speed rail, then you could extend it down to Norfolk/Raleigh and up to Rhode Island and still compete with the airlines for time and price. You would also demolish NYC-DC-Boston travel on the airlines (except where they're transiting, obviously) which still has about 50% IIRC.
Huh - road and air travel don't "work" anywhere without the government paying for it.
What's more is that if it were high-speed rail, then you could extend it down to Norfolk/Raleigh and up to Rhode Island and still compete with the airlines for time and price. You would also demolish NYC-DC-Boston travel on the airlines (except where they're transiting, obviously) which still has about 50% IIRC.
Huh - road and air travel don't "work" anywhere without the government paying for it.
Jun 3rd 2009 | 11:10 pm
#24
MODERATOR
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,227
From: Hong Kong, mostly.
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
One of the problems in the US is heat restrictions on the tracks. When the weather gets above 90 heat kinks can develop in the tracks and trains have to reduce the operating speed. In some parts of the US, this can be a daily event in the Summer.
Jun 4th 2009 | 1:23 am
#26
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4,382
From: on the horizon
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
Some mates from the UK and I did a train trip a few years back.
Springfield - Chicago - Memphis - DC - NYC - Springfield.
We used a cheapy rail pass for foreigners (not available unless you could show a foreign passport as I recall) and the sleeper supplements were under $100 per room per night for a roomette (sleeps 2) and with cooked meals in the restaurant car included.
We had a blast. It was a drinking holiday basically with a bit of sightseeing thrown in. We had been aiming for New Orleans but Katrina stepped in so we had to go to Memphis and then rent a car to get to Birmingham, AL to get the train to DC.
Scenery wasn't great - spent a lot of time starting at trees, but I can see how a trip out west would be much better.
The sleeper fares are demand-based and move through price buckets, from cheapy to bloody expensive (and sold out). Timing of booking is everything if you want to travel at low cost.
It was fun - we had a blast. Everything took ages though so you're got to want to do it. If convenience is your aim then air travel is almost always better...
Springfield - Chicago - Memphis - DC - NYC - Springfield.
We used a cheapy rail pass for foreigners (not available unless you could show a foreign passport as I recall) and the sleeper supplements were under $100 per room per night for a roomette (sleeps 2) and with cooked meals in the restaurant car included.
We had a blast. It was a drinking holiday basically with a bit of sightseeing thrown in. We had been aiming for New Orleans but Katrina stepped in so we had to go to Memphis and then rent a car to get to Birmingham, AL to get the train to DC.
Scenery wasn't great - spent a lot of time starting at trees, but I can see how a trip out west would be much better.
The sleeper fares are demand-based and move through price buckets, from cheapy to bloody expensive (and sold out). Timing of booking is everything if you want to travel at low cost.
It was fun - we had a blast. Everything took ages though so you're got to want to do it. If convenience is your aim then air travel is almost always better...
I couldn't afford the money for the 'sleeperettes' so had to kip on a recliner. Also there is only one toilet per car and someone usually dropped a huge shite in the lav at the beginning of the journey blocking up the system.
I remember the Lounge Cars being party central every night with lots of booze, and usually a sing-song. Great fun!
Tonrob - Thanks for stirring up those memories. Aaahhh!
Jun 4th 2009 | 1:38 am
#27
And YOU'RE paying for it!
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,328
From: kipper tie?
Jun 4th 2009 | 2:18 am
#28
Septic Sprout
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 8,002
From: Shanghai
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
Completely agree. Back in the early 90's I bought the 6 week Ameri-pass for $199 and did a loop of the states. The journey up through the Rockies was something else.
I couldn't afford the money for the 'sleeperettes' so had to kip on a recliner. Also there is only one toilet per car and someone usually dropped a huge shite in the lav at the beginning of the journey blocking up the system.
I remember the Lounge Cars being party central every night with lots of booze, and usually a sing-song. Great fun!
Tonrob - Thanks for stirring up those memories. Aaahhh!
I couldn't afford the money for the 'sleeperettes' so had to kip on a recliner. Also there is only one toilet per car and someone usually dropped a huge shite in the lav at the beginning of the journey blocking up the system.
I remember the Lounge Cars being party central every night with lots of booze, and usually a sing-song. Great fun!
Tonrob - Thanks for stirring up those memories. Aaahhh!
Jun 4th 2009 | 8:59 am
#29
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,544
From: Mississippi
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
I recently looked on the Amtrak site to go from Tuscaloosa, AL up to DC area.
I *might* have considered 24hrs shut up inside a train with kids if the cost was not prohibitive.
We put a friend of the train from Tuscaloosa, AL to downtown Atlanta, it's about a 3hr drive, it took 7hrs on the train.
If the high speed train fares are not cheaper then I don't think anyone will use it, apart from on the shorter routes up and down the Eastern Seaboard. I don't know if they are planning to subsidise the fares or not?
I *might* have considered 24hrs shut up inside a train with kids if the cost was not prohibitive.
We put a friend of the train from Tuscaloosa, AL to downtown Atlanta, it's about a 3hr drive, it took 7hrs on the train.
If the high speed train fares are not cheaper then I don't think anyone will use it, apart from on the shorter routes up and down the Eastern Seaboard. I don't know if they are planning to subsidise the fares or not?
Jun 4th 2009 | 9:22 am
#30
BE Forum Addict
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4,382
From: on the horizon
Re: High speed rail - Will it work here?
I recently looked on the Amtrak site to go from Tuscaloosa, AL up to DC area.
I *might* have considered 24hrs shut up inside a train with kids if the cost was not prohibitive.
We put a friend of the train from Tuscaloosa, AL to downtown Atlanta, it's about a 3hr drive, it took 7hrs on the train.
If the high speed train fares are not cheaper then I don't think anyone will use it, apart from on the shorter routes up and down the Eastern Seaboard. I don't know if they are planning to subsidise the fares or not?
I *might* have considered 24hrs shut up inside a train with kids if the cost was not prohibitive.
We put a friend of the train from Tuscaloosa, AL to downtown Atlanta, it's about a 3hr drive, it took 7hrs on the train.
If the high speed train fares are not cheaper then I don't think anyone will use it, apart from on the shorter routes up and down the Eastern Seaboard. I don't know if they are planning to subsidise the fares or not?
I'd welcome it though...... and more cycle lanes.
