help protect american jobs
Feb 3rd 2003, 9:57 pm
#91
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
D. Long wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
> "Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>"Tiny Human Ferret" wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>I keep pointing out that there were a huge number of German indentured
>>servants. When The Palatine was abandoned, probably the majority of the
>>escapees were shipped to the Colonies by the English. Usually they wound up
>>on a 7-year indenture.
>>William Penn advertised heavily in Germany and attracted thousands to
>>England to be transshiped. That added to the kidnappings in ports like
>>Bristol and recruitment like Oglethorpe's rounding up the debtors
>>contributed heavily to the inflow. So did 100 ships of Scotch-Irish in a
>>5-year period that landed in Boston and Philadelphia.
>
>
> And this did ...what?...prevent the English from extending
> their culture to America? You've kind of lost track of the
> discussion, haven't you.
Eh, as you very well know, Doug, the topics tend to drift a bit.
Still, please do take the point that it wasn't exclusively the English whose
culture became part and parcel of the Colonies and the
immediately-post-Revolutionary USA.
It might be noted, if you will bother to take a look at the numbers of
nearly-pure Anglo-Saxons in the States, and compare them with the numbers of
the nearly-pure Germans or Irish -- but more to the point, compare those
numbers with the numbers of the German-Irish or German-Scots-Irish -- you
might get the impression that the common language might have been English,
and the legal system might have been as close to the Roman Res Publica as it
could possibly be while remaining textually and traditionally based in
English Common Law... yet the People themselves were highly pan-european,
and commonly distanced themselves as quickly as possible from the disdainful
English.
Keep in mind, if you will, who settled the frontiers near and beyond the
Mississippi. Mostly German, Scots, Irish, and the occasional French, with
the English only showing up when the regions got settled enough to need
lawyers and bankers.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
> x-no-archive: yes
> "Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>"Tiny Human Ferret" wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>I keep pointing out that there were a huge number of German indentured
>>servants. When The Palatine was abandoned, probably the majority of the
>>escapees were shipped to the Colonies by the English. Usually they wound up
>>on a 7-year indenture.
>>William Penn advertised heavily in Germany and attracted thousands to
>>England to be transshiped. That added to the kidnappings in ports like
>>Bristol and recruitment like Oglethorpe's rounding up the debtors
>>contributed heavily to the inflow. So did 100 ships of Scotch-Irish in a
>>5-year period that landed in Boston and Philadelphia.
>
>
> And this did ...what?...prevent the English from extending
> their culture to America? You've kind of lost track of the
> discussion, haven't you.
Eh, as you very well know, Doug, the topics tend to drift a bit.
Still, please do take the point that it wasn't exclusively the English whose
culture became part and parcel of the Colonies and the
immediately-post-Revolutionary USA.
It might be noted, if you will bother to take a look at the numbers of
nearly-pure Anglo-Saxons in the States, and compare them with the numbers of
the nearly-pure Germans or Irish -- but more to the point, compare those
numbers with the numbers of the German-Irish or German-Scots-Irish -- you
might get the impression that the common language might have been English,
and the legal system might have been as close to the Roman Res Publica as it
could possibly be while remaining textually and traditionally based in
English Common Law... yet the People themselves were highly pan-european,
and commonly distanced themselves as quickly as possible from the disdainful
English.
Keep in mind, if you will, who settled the frontiers near and beyond the
Mississippi. Mostly German, Scots, Irish, and the occasional French, with
the English only showing up when the regions got settled enough to need
lawyers and bankers.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
Feb 3rd 2003, 10:10 pm
#92
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
Uncle Cato wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 13:56:13 -0500, Tiny Human Ferret
> wrote:
>
>
>>Sancho Panza wrote:
>>>"D. Long" wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> The colonials, obviously, were Englishmen living in the English
>>>Colonies. You think they were what ... Bantus?
>>>Sure, and ignorant people don't want to know about or ignore the
>>>Scotch-Irish, the Germans, the Swedes, the Dutch, the Hugenots. Wise-ass
>>>comments betray a lack of intellectual vigor, similar to what is displayed
>>>throughout such a response.
>>I keep pointing out that there were a huge number of German indentured
>>servants. When The Palatine was abandoned, probably the majority of the
>>escapees were shipped to the Colonies by the English. Usually they wound up
>>on a 7-year indenture.
>
>
> Absolutely correct Ferret. It was these very people who started
> Franklin thinking about "multicultural" problems.
Rumor has it that he and Penn had words about it rather frequently.
Apparently Franklin just didn't much care for Germans. The Germans probably
responded by not caring much for Franklin, and in any case, they had their
own places to settle and were too busy carving a life out of the wilderness.
Franklin's dislike of the Germans might have stemmed from the fact that all
of his little gems such as "waste not, want not" and "astitch in time, saves
nine" had for a very long time been so ingrained in the Germans that "Poor
Richard's Almanack" probably seemed a bit of belaboring of the obvious, but
how nice was Mr Franklin for trying to enlighten the English.
Remember that SF series called "Alien Nation", where an interstellar slave
ship crashed and marooned a couple of thousand of beings, genetically
engineered to be smarter, stronger, and more adaptible than an human could
be? And the humans are all discriminating against people who can out-think
them, out-fight them, and definitely out-work them? The way I hear it, once
their indentures were over and they were free to honorably go on their way,
the situation of the English discriminating against the Germans was about
like the Earthers discriminating against the Tinctonese.
Many of the English colonists were, not to put too fine a point on it,
religious nutjobs who would have starved if the natives hadn't fed them, or
proved willing to trade to great disadvantage for goods such as liquor or
gunpowder. Many of the other English colonists had their positions solely
due to inheritance or influence on the royal courtiers, and many of them
used that influence to be gifted with temporary slaves, who built for them
everything that they ever had.
And once those temporary slaves were slaves no longer, be the German, Scots,
Irish, or what-have-you, generally the slaves went off and built the USA.
And for the most part, if you want to take a look through all of the
colonies and find the most run-down shanties that ever had a pack of hounds
sleeping under the porch, you will find a lot of folks whose only claim to
fame is that they were English and came in on the early boats. And many of
them will claim this as their fame and honor, but if you ask of their
neighbors as to their Reputation, like as not you will hear "ne'er-do-well"
and that would be from the sort of folks that just are too genteel by far to
ever use the phrase "po' white trash". There are probably 20 of 'em for
every doctor, lawyer, scholar, or engineer that lays a claim to being
old-line English Colonists.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
> On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 13:56:13 -0500, Tiny Human Ferret
> wrote:
>
>
>>Sancho Panza wrote:
>>>"D. Long" wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> The colonials, obviously, were Englishmen living in the English
>>>Colonies. You think they were what ... Bantus?
>>>Sure, and ignorant people don't want to know about or ignore the
>>>Scotch-Irish, the Germans, the Swedes, the Dutch, the Hugenots. Wise-ass
>>>comments betray a lack of intellectual vigor, similar to what is displayed
>>>throughout such a response.
>>I keep pointing out that there were a huge number of German indentured
>>servants. When The Palatine was abandoned, probably the majority of the
>>escapees were shipped to the Colonies by the English. Usually they wound up
>>on a 7-year indenture.
>
>
> Absolutely correct Ferret. It was these very people who started
> Franklin thinking about "multicultural" problems.
Rumor has it that he and Penn had words about it rather frequently.
Apparently Franklin just didn't much care for Germans. The Germans probably
responded by not caring much for Franklin, and in any case, they had their
own places to settle and were too busy carving a life out of the wilderness.
Franklin's dislike of the Germans might have stemmed from the fact that all
of his little gems such as "waste not, want not" and "astitch in time, saves
nine" had for a very long time been so ingrained in the Germans that "Poor
Richard's Almanack" probably seemed a bit of belaboring of the obvious, but
how nice was Mr Franklin for trying to enlighten the English.
Remember that SF series called "Alien Nation", where an interstellar slave
ship crashed and marooned a couple of thousand of beings, genetically
engineered to be smarter, stronger, and more adaptible than an human could
be? And the humans are all discriminating against people who can out-think
them, out-fight them, and definitely out-work them? The way I hear it, once
their indentures were over and they were free to honorably go on their way,
the situation of the English discriminating against the Germans was about
like the Earthers discriminating against the Tinctonese.
Many of the English colonists were, not to put too fine a point on it,
religious nutjobs who would have starved if the natives hadn't fed them, or
proved willing to trade to great disadvantage for goods such as liquor or
gunpowder. Many of the other English colonists had their positions solely
due to inheritance or influence on the royal courtiers, and many of them
used that influence to be gifted with temporary slaves, who built for them
everything that they ever had.
And once those temporary slaves were slaves no longer, be the German, Scots,
Irish, or what-have-you, generally the slaves went off and built the USA.
And for the most part, if you want to take a look through all of the
colonies and find the most run-down shanties that ever had a pack of hounds
sleeping under the porch, you will find a lot of folks whose only claim to
fame is that they were English and came in on the early boats. And many of
them will claim this as their fame and honor, but if you ask of their
neighbors as to their Reputation, like as not you will hear "ne'er-do-well"
and that would be from the sort of folks that just are too genteel by far to
ever use the phrase "po' white trash". There are probably 20 of 'em for
every doctor, lawyer, scholar, or engineer that lays a claim to being
old-line English Colonists.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
Feb 3rd 2003, 10:15 pm
#93
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 14:32:32 -0500, "Sancho Panza"
wrote:
>"Tiny Human Ferret" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I keep pointing out that there were a huge number of German indentured
>servants. When The Palatine was abandoned, probably the majority of the
>escapees were shipped to the Colonies by the English. Usually they wound up
>on a 7-year indenture.
>William Penn advertised heavily in Germany and attracted thousands to
>England to be transshiped. That added to the kidnappings in ports like
>Bristol and recruitment like Oglethorpe's rounding up the debtors
>contributed heavily to the inflow. So did 100 ships of Scotch-Irish in a
>5-year period that landed in Boston and Philadelphia.
The real historic picture, in summary, is of several English Colonies
(thoroughly native-not-immigrant as Kernel often points out) having
their first numerically-significant experience with ethnic immigrants.
Same mistrust and jabs we are familiar with. And they stumbled through
the same solution that has since worked so well for this country, up
until ~25 years ago. Their numbers were limited by the natives,
through various means, and through changes as well in the places they
left. Many families assimulated. Some went west to farm and never came
back, and they created their germantowns, some still very ethnically
separate and distinct from the mainstream, right up until WWII, when
that separatism became a little dangerous for them.
This partial (but effective) american-style assimulation was
replicated in every imaginable way. with countless ethnic immigrant
arrivals, some well-thought of (if they went off to farm and open
frontier). Some considered undesirable.
Latin-american immigration to the US is different in a few important
ways, and those differences are quite enough to spoil what has worked
with others. It's not like immigrant assimulation had been a grand
plan and a guarantee of national unity, it has always been dicey. In
other countries it has seldom worked well, if at all. There is no
american exceptionalism here, dealing with it has been ad hoc for the
most part, and has only been successful because it always was dealt
with.
wrote:
>"Tiny Human Ferret" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I keep pointing out that there were a huge number of German indentured
>servants. When The Palatine was abandoned, probably the majority of the
>escapees were shipped to the Colonies by the English. Usually they wound up
>on a 7-year indenture.
>William Penn advertised heavily in Germany and attracted thousands to
>England to be transshiped. That added to the kidnappings in ports like
>Bristol and recruitment like Oglethorpe's rounding up the debtors
>contributed heavily to the inflow. So did 100 ships of Scotch-Irish in a
>5-year period that landed in Boston and Philadelphia.
The real historic picture, in summary, is of several English Colonies
(thoroughly native-not-immigrant as Kernel often points out) having
their first numerically-significant experience with ethnic immigrants.
Same mistrust and jabs we are familiar with. And they stumbled through
the same solution that has since worked so well for this country, up
until ~25 years ago. Their numbers were limited by the natives,
through various means, and through changes as well in the places they
left. Many families assimulated. Some went west to farm and never came
back, and they created their germantowns, some still very ethnically
separate and distinct from the mainstream, right up until WWII, when
that separatism became a little dangerous for them.
This partial (but effective) american-style assimulation was
replicated in every imaginable way. with countless ethnic immigrant
arrivals, some well-thought of (if they went off to farm and open
frontier). Some considered undesirable.
Latin-american immigration to the US is different in a few important
ways, and those differences are quite enough to spoil what has worked
with others. It's not like immigrant assimulation had been a grand
plan and a guarantee of national unity, it has always been dicey. In
other countries it has seldom worked well, if at all. There is no
american exceptionalism here, dealing with it has been ad hoc for the
most part, and has only been successful because it always was dealt
with.
Feb 3rd 2003, 10:19 pm
#94
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:16:13 -0500, "Sancho Panza"
wrote:
>"D. Long" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> The first immigrants and their children were pretty much Englishmen.
>Except for New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina and
>South Carolina and quite a few other areas. That is confusing the holders of
>the royal grants and the people who actually immigrated.
>> I could care less about Central and South America.
>That is except when they're cutting your lawn, taking care of your kids and
>cooking your food.
Hilarious assumption. They do none of the first two for me, and I'll
bet, most native readers. As for the third, I deliberately avoid
eating out where I know those people are behind the grill. Many
americans do that, conciously and subconciously.
wrote:
>"D. Long" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> The first immigrants and their children were pretty much Englishmen.
>Except for New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina and
>South Carolina and quite a few other areas. That is confusing the holders of
>the royal grants and the people who actually immigrated.
>> I could care less about Central and South America.
>That is except when they're cutting your lawn, taking care of your kids and
>cooking your food.
Hilarious assumption. They do none of the first two for me, and I'll
bet, most native readers. As for the third, I deliberately avoid
eating out where I know those people are behind the grill. Many
americans do that, conciously and subconciously.
Feb 3rd 2003, 11:51 pm
#95
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:10:01 -0500, Tiny Human Ferret
wrote:
>Rumor has it that he and Penn had words about it rather frequently.
>Apparently Franklin just didn't much care for Germans. The Germans probably
>responded by not caring much for Franklin, and in any case, they had their
>own places to settle and were too busy carving a life out of the wilderness.
>Franklin's dislike of the Germans might have stemmed from the fact that all
>of his little gems such as "waste not, want not" and "astitch in time, saves
>nine" had for a very long time been so ingrained in the Germans that "Poor
>Richard's Almanack" probably seemed a bit of belaboring of the obvious, but
>how nice was Mr Franklin for trying to enlighten the English.
>Remember that SF series called "Alien Nation", where an interstellar slave
>ship crashed and marooned a couple of thousand of beings, genetically
>engineered to be smarter, stronger, and more adaptible than an human could
>be? And the humans are all discriminating against people who can out-think
>them, out-fight them, and definitely out-work them? The way I hear it, once
>their indentures were over and they were free to honorably go on their way,
>the situation of the English discriminating against the Germans was about
>like the Earthers discriminating against the Tinctonese.
>Many of the English colonists were, not to put too fine a point on it,
>religious nutjobs who would have starved if the natives hadn't fed them, or
>proved willing to trade to great disadvantage for goods such as liquor or
>gunpowder. Many of the other English colonists had their positions solely
>due to inheritance or influence on the royal courtiers, and many of them
>used that influence to be gifted with temporary slaves, who built for them
>everything that they ever had.
>And once those temporary slaves were slaves no longer, be the German, Scots,
>Irish, or what-have-you, generally the slaves went off and built the USA.
>And for the most part, if you want to take a look through all of the
>colonies and find the most run-down shanties that ever had a pack of hounds
>sleeping under the porch, you will find a lot of folks whose only claim to
>fame is that they were English and came in on the early boats. And many of
>them will claim this as their fame and honor, but if you ask of their
>neighbors as to their Reputation, like as not you will hear "ne'er-do-well"
>and that would be from the sort of folks that just are too genteel by far to
>ever use the phrase "po' white trash". There are probably 20 of 'em for
>every doctor, lawyer, scholar, or engineer that lays a claim to being
>old-line English Colonists.
It's always struck me funny that white americans think of themselves
as most closely akin to the English. Our closest allies, the mother
country. We speak the language, and we derived very much from them
institutionally, but we are much more like Germans in our attitude and
comportment. I've never gotten the feeling when I'm around English
folks that we are really much alike. I do get that feeling with
Germans and some other continentals, even when we can barely converse.
Obvious reason for that, is that it's so.
Also have some laughs about american music, Folk, Country and Rock n
Roll. It originally evolved straight out of the Scotts-Irish base.
I've had especial laughs with Irish folks I've known, who were
way-into the Irish folk revival stuff. They think of it as uniquely
their own, a point of pride, and nothing to do with american music. I
never had the heart to tell them that we've been playing it and
evolving it here, for many generations.
wrote:
>Rumor has it that he and Penn had words about it rather frequently.
>Apparently Franklin just didn't much care for Germans. The Germans probably
>responded by not caring much for Franklin, and in any case, they had their
>own places to settle and were too busy carving a life out of the wilderness.
>Franklin's dislike of the Germans might have stemmed from the fact that all
>of his little gems such as "waste not, want not" and "astitch in time, saves
>nine" had for a very long time been so ingrained in the Germans that "Poor
>Richard's Almanack" probably seemed a bit of belaboring of the obvious, but
>how nice was Mr Franklin for trying to enlighten the English.
>Remember that SF series called "Alien Nation", where an interstellar slave
>ship crashed and marooned a couple of thousand of beings, genetically
>engineered to be smarter, stronger, and more adaptible than an human could
>be? And the humans are all discriminating against people who can out-think
>them, out-fight them, and definitely out-work them? The way I hear it, once
>their indentures were over and they were free to honorably go on their way,
>the situation of the English discriminating against the Germans was about
>like the Earthers discriminating against the Tinctonese.
>Many of the English colonists were, not to put too fine a point on it,
>religious nutjobs who would have starved if the natives hadn't fed them, or
>proved willing to trade to great disadvantage for goods such as liquor or
>gunpowder. Many of the other English colonists had their positions solely
>due to inheritance or influence on the royal courtiers, and many of them
>used that influence to be gifted with temporary slaves, who built for them
>everything that they ever had.
>And once those temporary slaves were slaves no longer, be the German, Scots,
>Irish, or what-have-you, generally the slaves went off and built the USA.
>And for the most part, if you want to take a look through all of the
>colonies and find the most run-down shanties that ever had a pack of hounds
>sleeping under the porch, you will find a lot of folks whose only claim to
>fame is that they were English and came in on the early boats. And many of
>them will claim this as their fame and honor, but if you ask of their
>neighbors as to their Reputation, like as not you will hear "ne'er-do-well"
>and that would be from the sort of folks that just are too genteel by far to
>ever use the phrase "po' white trash". There are probably 20 of 'em for
>every doctor, lawyer, scholar, or engineer that lays a claim to being
>old-line English Colonists.
It's always struck me funny that white americans think of themselves
as most closely akin to the English. Our closest allies, the mother
country. We speak the language, and we derived very much from them
institutionally, but we are much more like Germans in our attitude and
comportment. I've never gotten the feeling when I'm around English
folks that we are really much alike. I do get that feeling with
Germans and some other continentals, even when we can barely converse.
Obvious reason for that, is that it's so.
Also have some laughs about american music, Folk, Country and Rock n
Roll. It originally evolved straight out of the Scotts-Irish base.
I've had especial laughs with Irish folks I've known, who were
way-into the Irish folk revival stuff. They think of it as uniquely
their own, a point of pride, and nothing to do with american music. I
never had the heart to tell them that we've been playing it and
evolving it here, for many generations.
Feb 4th 2003, 7:39 am
#96
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
x-no-archive: yes
"Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "D. Long" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > Except for New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina
> and South Carolina and quite a few other areas. That is confusing the
> holders of the royal grants and the people who actually immigrated.
> > Is this your way of claiming that the English didn't extend their
> culture to America?
> The influences melded together, even then, even to many people's dismay
> today.
Let me try this: you claim that the English fled England -- their
culture in particular. I claim they didn't flee, that they arrived here
to extend their culture. And now you provide non sequiturs. Have
you considered that many who disagree with you do so because
the source of your ideas is a bit muddled?
> > That has never and will never happen. But it does tell a lot about
> how your opinion of massive third-world immigration was formed. You really
> enjoy chasing the maid, do you?
> That might be taken to mean that you would refrain from a relationship with
> a person of any one or several groups.
Possibly, in that bizarre epistemological never-never land in which
you seem to dwell.
> The classic World War II question has
> to be asked: "Would you refuse a blood transfusion from such a person if you
> needed it in the hospital or on the battlefield?"
If you were the donor, I'd consider the matter very carefully.
"Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "D. Long" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > Except for New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina
> and South Carolina and quite a few other areas. That is confusing the
> holders of the royal grants and the people who actually immigrated.
> > Is this your way of claiming that the English didn't extend their
> culture to America?
> The influences melded together, even then, even to many people's dismay
> today.
Let me try this: you claim that the English fled England -- their
culture in particular. I claim they didn't flee, that they arrived here
to extend their culture. And now you provide non sequiturs. Have
you considered that many who disagree with you do so because
the source of your ideas is a bit muddled?
> > That has never and will never happen. But it does tell a lot about
> how your opinion of massive third-world immigration was formed. You really
> enjoy chasing the maid, do you?
> That might be taken to mean that you would refrain from a relationship with
> a person of any one or several groups.
Possibly, in that bizarre epistemological never-never land in which
you seem to dwell.
> The classic World War II question has
> to be asked: "Would you refuse a blood transfusion from such a person if you
> needed it in the hospital or on the battlefield?"
If you were the donor, I'd consider the matter very carefully.
Feb 4th 2003, 8:37 am
#97
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
x-no-archive: yes
"Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "D. Long" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > And you apparently believe that a plantation system with slaves
> somehow cancels the practice of English culture. Your density is showing.
> Right. I forgot bout all dem down-home darkies in chains all over the
> midlands and lake country.
And again, you fail to make a logical connection. Keep trying.
> > Are you actually claiming that immigration from Asia was a wave at any
> time in the history of this country until 1965?
> OK, what does your almanac tell you? I know what mine says and what it
> doesn't. What it doesn't know about, apparently like some posters, is the
> passage and continuation of the Chinese Exclusion Act.
So the Chinese Exclusion Act means ... what? ... that
a wave of Chinese arrived here as immigrants? Maybe if you
actually read some history going back to the Gold Rush, you'd
unerstand the nature of and numbers involved in Chinese
immigration. Hint: it wasn't a "wave."
> Therefore those
> hundreds of thousands of Chinese entered in a very, very small window,
Never did "hundreds of thousands of Chinese enter
this country" before 1965.
> especially compare to the 120-year window for the comparable groups.
And by the way, what does any of this have to do with whether the
English arrived here to escape or extend their culture?
> > Whether tens of thousands of Japanese were interned is irrelevant to
> the fact that no wave of Japanese ever arrived here and that you don't know
> what you're talking about.
> That's right again. Oops, I forgot, California just grew a couple of hundred
> thousand Japanese before 1940,
The number of Japanese in Califonria in 1940 was
well under 100,000.
> and that included not just the nisei, as
> pointed out here, but also the issei, kibei and sansei.
You are really one championship bullshitter deluxe,
aren't you. Most of the Japanese in this country in 1940
were issei and nisei, owing to the fact that most Japanese
weren't here long enough to have produced grandchildren.
And the questions remains, the English ...
> > What is it that you fail to understand in the term *English Colonies*?
> The people you mention, aside from the Dutch, were fairly late comers and
> were minorities. Furthermore, they didn't prevent the English from
> extending English culture to America.
> If you check any standard history reference, you will see that the French
> and the English were both late to the colonization deal, especially in North
> America. Sweden, Holland, Spain and elsewhere Portugal were far out in
> front. It wasn't until the English mercantilists woke up and worked with
> Elizabeth to get anything going more than just the royal grants. Maybe you
> have never checked just what Charles I did grant.
Maybe if you addressed the issue, you wouldn't come across
as not only a championship bullshitter deluxe, but also as
an imbecile.
> > To you I suggest a college survey text on US history. That *might*
> clear up some of your confusion.
> Which one or ones, other than the alamanc, would be recommended? I've got
> several on hand and easy access to quite a few others.
"Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "D. Long" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > And you apparently believe that a plantation system with slaves
> somehow cancels the practice of English culture. Your density is showing.
> Right. I forgot bout all dem down-home darkies in chains all over the
> midlands and lake country.
And again, you fail to make a logical connection. Keep trying.
> > Are you actually claiming that immigration from Asia was a wave at any
> time in the history of this country until 1965?
> OK, what does your almanac tell you? I know what mine says and what it
> doesn't. What it doesn't know about, apparently like some posters, is the
> passage and continuation of the Chinese Exclusion Act.
So the Chinese Exclusion Act means ... what? ... that
a wave of Chinese arrived here as immigrants? Maybe if you
actually read some history going back to the Gold Rush, you'd
unerstand the nature of and numbers involved in Chinese
immigration. Hint: it wasn't a "wave."
> Therefore those
> hundreds of thousands of Chinese entered in a very, very small window,
Never did "hundreds of thousands of Chinese enter
this country" before 1965.
> especially compare to the 120-year window for the comparable groups.
And by the way, what does any of this have to do with whether the
English arrived here to escape or extend their culture?
> > Whether tens of thousands of Japanese were interned is irrelevant to
> the fact that no wave of Japanese ever arrived here and that you don't know
> what you're talking about.
> That's right again. Oops, I forgot, California just grew a couple of hundred
> thousand Japanese before 1940,
The number of Japanese in Califonria in 1940 was
well under 100,000.
> and that included not just the nisei, as
> pointed out here, but also the issei, kibei and sansei.
You are really one championship bullshitter deluxe,
aren't you. Most of the Japanese in this country in 1940
were issei and nisei, owing to the fact that most Japanese
weren't here long enough to have produced grandchildren.
And the questions remains, the English ...
> > What is it that you fail to understand in the term *English Colonies*?
> The people you mention, aside from the Dutch, were fairly late comers and
> were minorities. Furthermore, they didn't prevent the English from
> extending English culture to America.
> If you check any standard history reference, you will see that the French
> and the English were both late to the colonization deal, especially in North
> America. Sweden, Holland, Spain and elsewhere Portugal were far out in
> front. It wasn't until the English mercantilists woke up and worked with
> Elizabeth to get anything going more than just the royal grants. Maybe you
> have never checked just what Charles I did grant.
Maybe if you addressed the issue, you wouldn't come across
as not only a championship bullshitter deluxe, but also as
an imbecile.
> > To you I suggest a college survey text on US history. That *might*
> clear up some of your confusion.
> Which one or ones, other than the alamanc, would be recommended? I've got
> several on hand and easy access to quite a few others.
Feb 4th 2003, 8:47 am
#98
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
x-no-archive: yes
"Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > To you I suggest a college survey text on US history. That *might*
> clear up some of your confusion.
> Which one or ones, other than the alamanc, would be recommended? I've got
> several on hand and easy access to quite a few others.
Pick one or two and read them. That might help. My
own favorite survey texts are by Thomas A. Bailey of
Stanford, who wrote them before political correctness
and the nonsense of multi-culturalism came into vogue --
you know, before texts put more emphasis on
illiterate functionaries of the Underground Railroad
than on Jefferson and his ideas.
"Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > To you I suggest a college survey text on US history. That *might*
> clear up some of your confusion.
> Which one or ones, other than the alamanc, would be recommended? I've got
> several on hand and easy access to quite a few others.
Pick one or two and read them. That might help. My
own favorite survey texts are by Thomas A. Bailey of
Stanford, who wrote them before political correctness
and the nonsense of multi-culturalism came into vogue --
you know, before texts put more emphasis on
illiterate functionaries of the Underground Railroad
than on Jefferson and his ideas.
Feb 4th 2003, 2:20 pm
#99
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
"D. Long" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> x-no-archive: yes
> "Sancho Panza" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "D. Long" wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Except for New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North
Carolina
> > and South Carolina and quite a few other areas. That is confusing the
> > holders of the royal grants and the people who actually immigrated.
> > > Is this your way of claiming that the English didn't extend their
> > culture to America?
> >
> > The influences melded together, even then, even to many people's dismay
> > today.
> Let me try this: you claim that the English fled England -- their
> culture in particular. I claim they didn't flee, that they arrived here
> to extend their culture. And now you provide non sequiturs. Have
> you considered that many who disagree with you do so because
> the source of your ideas is a bit muddled?
I find it really hard to agree with this one, even if you are a history
scholar of sorts.
A considerable portion of the earliest emigrants to the New World were
religious dissidents who were persecuted or suffered the prospect of
persecution in England. Another segment consisted of "voluntary" colonists
who were either petty criminals or were in prison for debt.
Generally, these were the rejects, malcontents and the outsiders form
mainstream English society. They certainly did not arrive to uphold a banner
of English civilization.
Oh, I forgot the money-grubbing royalist opportunists, often the second or
third son in an era when the first son inherited all. Now that was a group
with high ideals and principals.
news:[email protected]...
> x-no-archive: yes
> "Sancho Panza" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "D. Long" wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Except for New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North
Carolina
> > and South Carolina and quite a few other areas. That is confusing the
> > holders of the royal grants and the people who actually immigrated.
> > > Is this your way of claiming that the English didn't extend their
> > culture to America?
> >
> > The influences melded together, even then, even to many people's dismay
> > today.
> Let me try this: you claim that the English fled England -- their
> culture in particular. I claim they didn't flee, that they arrived here
> to extend their culture. And now you provide non sequiturs. Have
> you considered that many who disagree with you do so because
> the source of your ideas is a bit muddled?
I find it really hard to agree with this one, even if you are a history
scholar of sorts.
A considerable portion of the earliest emigrants to the New World were
religious dissidents who were persecuted or suffered the prospect of
persecution in England. Another segment consisted of "voluntary" colonists
who were either petty criminals or were in prison for debt.
Generally, these were the rejects, malcontents and the outsiders form
mainstream English society. They certainly did not arrive to uphold a banner
of English civilization.
Oh, I forgot the money-grubbing royalist opportunists, often the second or
third son in an era when the first son inherited all. Now that was a group
with high ideals and principals.
Feb 4th 2003, 2:39 pm
#100
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
"D. Long" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> x-no-archive: yes
>My own favorite survey texts are by Thomas A. Bailey of Stanford, who
wrote them before political correctness and the nonsense of
multi-culturalism came into vogue -- you know, before texts put more
emphasis on illiterate functionaries of the Underground Railroad than on
Jefferson and his ideas.
Don't fear about PC. One of the sources I was using was Charles and Mary
Beard's "Rise of American Civilization" (1930), which my parents left to me.
news:[email protected]...
> x-no-archive: yes
>My own favorite survey texts are by Thomas A. Bailey of Stanford, who
wrote them before political correctness and the nonsense of
multi-culturalism came into vogue -- you know, before texts put more
emphasis on illiterate functionaries of the Underground Railroad than on
Jefferson and his ideas.
Don't fear about PC. One of the sources I was using was Charles and Mary
Beard's "Rise of American Civilization" (1930), which my parents left to me.
Feb 4th 2003, 2:50 pm
#101
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
"D. Long" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So the Chinese Exclusion Act means ... what? ... that a wave of
Chinese arrived here as immigrants? Maybe if you actually read some history
going back to the Gold Rush, you'd unerstand the nature of and numbers
involved in Chinese immigration. Hint: it wasn't a "wave."
To help you remember the original point you were trying to make, you tried
to say that at no point in history was the U.S. so fearful of an immigrant
horde as it is now. The passage, re-passage and subsequent acts to exclude
Chinese and others for about 100 years make it crystal clear that the U.S.
most definitely feared the horde from the East, or as it was called then,
"the yellow peril." Your ignorance or feigned ignorance on the subject is
startling for such a self-professed expert on history and immigration.
> Never did "hundreds of thousands of Chinese enter this country" before
1965.
Well, after three tries you still don't have a number or source. Guess
you've run out of saying anything except to bray. My almanac, Information
Please, shows 400,000.
> And by the way, what does any of this have to do with whether the
English arrived here to escape or extend their culture?
You've got lost from your original point about fear of immigrant hordes. See
first reply here.
> The number of Japanese in Califonria in 1940 was well under 100,000.
My encyclopedia says it was well over 100,000. What's the name of yours?
>Most of the Japanese in this country in 1940 were issei and nisei, owing to
the fact that most Japanese weren't here long enough to have produced
grandchildren.
So what's your point? Mine was people on the West Coast dumped in their
panties at the outset of the war and tore ass after anyone who just looked
like the enemy. Generations don't really count in such times, except for the
fact that you were apparently trying to make some obscure reference to
nisei.
> > The people you mention, aside from the Dutch, were fairly late comers
and were minorities. Furthermore, they didn't prevent the English from
extending English culture to America.
> > If you check any standard history reference, you will see that the
French and the English were both late to the colonization deal, especially
in North America. Sweden, Holland, Spain and elsewhere Portugal were far out
in front. It wasn't until the English mercantilists woke up and worked with
Elizabeth to get anything going more than just the royal grants.
Instead of a rebuttal, we get a vulgar epithet. That's not much of an
indication of any scholarship.
news:[email protected]...
> So the Chinese Exclusion Act means ... what? ... that a wave of
Chinese arrived here as immigrants? Maybe if you actually read some history
going back to the Gold Rush, you'd unerstand the nature of and numbers
involved in Chinese immigration. Hint: it wasn't a "wave."
To help you remember the original point you were trying to make, you tried
to say that at no point in history was the U.S. so fearful of an immigrant
horde as it is now. The passage, re-passage and subsequent acts to exclude
Chinese and others for about 100 years make it crystal clear that the U.S.
most definitely feared the horde from the East, or as it was called then,
"the yellow peril." Your ignorance or feigned ignorance on the subject is
startling for such a self-professed expert on history and immigration.
> Never did "hundreds of thousands of Chinese enter this country" before
1965.
Well, after three tries you still don't have a number or source. Guess
you've run out of saying anything except to bray. My almanac, Information
Please, shows 400,000.
> And by the way, what does any of this have to do with whether the
English arrived here to escape or extend their culture?
You've got lost from your original point about fear of immigrant hordes. See
first reply here.
> The number of Japanese in Califonria in 1940 was well under 100,000.
My encyclopedia says it was well over 100,000. What's the name of yours?
>Most of the Japanese in this country in 1940 were issei and nisei, owing to
the fact that most Japanese weren't here long enough to have produced
grandchildren.
So what's your point? Mine was people on the West Coast dumped in their
panties at the outset of the war and tore ass after anyone who just looked
like the enemy. Generations don't really count in such times, except for the
fact that you were apparently trying to make some obscure reference to
nisei.
> > The people you mention, aside from the Dutch, were fairly late comers
and were minorities. Furthermore, they didn't prevent the English from
extending English culture to America.
> > If you check any standard history reference, you will see that the
French and the English were both late to the colonization deal, especially
in North America. Sweden, Holland, Spain and elsewhere Portugal were far out
in front. It wasn't until the English mercantilists woke up and worked with
Elizabeth to get anything going more than just the royal grants.
Instead of a rebuttal, we get a vulgar epithet. That's not much of an
indication of any scholarship.
Feb 4th 2003, 2:55 pm
#102
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
"D. Long" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>you claim that the English fled England -- their culture in particular. I
claim they didn't flee, that they arrived here to extend their culture. And
now you provide non sequiturs. Have you considered that many who disagree
with you do so because the source of your ideas is a bit muddled?
You may call them non sequiturs because their real history contradicts your
long and firmly held beliefs. Once again, no support in any fashion is
provided for a sweeping assertion. It might be interesting to list a few of
the "many who disagree."
> If you were the donor, I'd consider the matter very carefully.
Boy, it would most likely shock you to see someone whiter than thou.
news:[email protected]...
>you claim that the English fled England -- their culture in particular. I
claim they didn't flee, that they arrived here to extend their culture. And
now you provide non sequiturs. Have you considered that many who disagree
with you do so because the source of your ideas is a bit muddled?
You may call them non sequiturs because their real history contradicts your
long and firmly held beliefs. Once again, no support in any fashion is
provided for a sweeping assertion. It might be interesting to list a few of
the "many who disagree."
> If you were the donor, I'd consider the matter very carefully.
Boy, it would most likely shock you to see someone whiter than thou.
Feb 4th 2003, 2:58 pm
#103
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
Sancho Panza wrote:
> "D. Long" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> And this did ...what?...prevent the English from extending their
>
> culture to America? You've kind of lost track of the discussion, haven't
> you.
>
> Maybe some people think Lancaster, Pa., is a longtime hotbed of high English
> culture. People who have been there and actually took the time to get to
> become acquainted with a fascinating area know differently.
Try Mechanicsville MD, for that matter.
Or large parts of the midwest, especially in Kansas and Missouri. Or mayeb
try New Braunfels TX.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
> "D. Long" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> And this did ...what?...prevent the English from extending their
>
> culture to America? You've kind of lost track of the discussion, haven't
> you.
>
> Maybe some people think Lancaster, Pa., is a longtime hotbed of high English
> culture. People who have been there and actually took the time to get to
> become acquainted with a fascinating area know differently.
Try Mechanicsville MD, for that matter.
Or large parts of the midwest, especially in Kansas and Missouri. Or mayeb
try New Braunfels TX.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
Feb 4th 2003, 3:13 pm
#104
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
Uncle Cato wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:10:01 -0500, Tiny Human Ferret
> wrote:
> It's always struck me funny that white americans think of themselves
> as most closely akin to the English. Our closest allies, the mother
> country. We speak the language, and we derived very much from them
> institutionally, but we are much more like Germans in our attitude and
> comportment. I've never gotten the feeling when I'm around English
> folks that we are really much alike. I do get that feeling with
> Germans and some other continentals, even when we can barely converse.
> Obvious reason for that, is that it's so.
It may have a lot more to do with the fact that most of Europe is solidly
post-royal, and has been so for quite some time. As strange as the French
are, for instance, they've been essentially democratic/republican in
governmental forms for about as long as has been the US. Similarly with
Italy, and Germany was never really of Royal tradition; they went straight
from Feudalism into a Republican form (well, with those unfortunate detours
into Fascism etc) as did Italy. The funny thing about the Germans is that
the closest thing they have to actual Royalty is in fact the Royal family of
England and Spain. The Queen of England is technically a German monarch, etc.
>
> Also have some laughs about american music, Folk, Country and Rock n
> Roll. It originally evolved straight out of the Scotts-Irish base.
> I've had especial laughs with Irish folks I've known, who were
> way-into the Irish folk revival stuff. They think of it as uniquely
> their own, a point of pride, and nothing to do with american music. I
> never had the heart to tell them that we've been playing it and
> evolving it here, for many generations.
Heh... they're _still_ singing "Barbry Allen" back in the hills of Kentucky,
from what I hear. Rock'n'Roll is, after all, mostly the Blues with a Country
beat. And don't forget that classic Banjo music is essentially Irish
hornpipes played on an African instrument. But be that as it may, I'm quite
happy to forego certain elements of classic Germanic culture as imported to
the States; I prefer kimchee to sauerkraut and that #$*! Bavarian Polka
music is fit only for The Damned.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
> On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 18:10:01 -0500, Tiny Human Ferret
> wrote:
> It's always struck me funny that white americans think of themselves
> as most closely akin to the English. Our closest allies, the mother
> country. We speak the language, and we derived very much from them
> institutionally, but we are much more like Germans in our attitude and
> comportment. I've never gotten the feeling when I'm around English
> folks that we are really much alike. I do get that feeling with
> Germans and some other continentals, even when we can barely converse.
> Obvious reason for that, is that it's so.
It may have a lot more to do with the fact that most of Europe is solidly
post-royal, and has been so for quite some time. As strange as the French
are, for instance, they've been essentially democratic/republican in
governmental forms for about as long as has been the US. Similarly with
Italy, and Germany was never really of Royal tradition; they went straight
from Feudalism into a Republican form (well, with those unfortunate detours
into Fascism etc) as did Italy. The funny thing about the Germans is that
the closest thing they have to actual Royalty is in fact the Royal family of
England and Spain. The Queen of England is technically a German monarch, etc.
>
> Also have some laughs about american music, Folk, Country and Rock n
> Roll. It originally evolved straight out of the Scotts-Irish base.
> I've had especial laughs with Irish folks I've known, who were
> way-into the Irish folk revival stuff. They think of it as uniquely
> their own, a point of pride, and nothing to do with american music. I
> never had the heart to tell them that we've been playing it and
> evolving it here, for many generations.
Heh... they're _still_ singing "Barbry Allen" back in the hills of Kentucky,
from what I hear. Rock'n'Roll is, after all, mostly the Blues with a Country
beat. And don't forget that classic Banjo music is essentially Irish
hornpipes played on an African instrument. But be that as it may, I'm quite
happy to forego certain elements of classic Germanic culture as imported to
the States; I prefer kimchee to sauerkraut and that #$*! Bavarian Polka
music is fit only for The Damned.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
Feb 4th 2003, 3:19 pm
#105
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: help protect american jobs
D. Long wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
> "Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>"D. Long" wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>Except for New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina
>>and South Carolina and quite a few other areas. That is confusing the
>>holders of the royal grants and the people who actually immigrated.
>>> Is this your way of claiming that the English didn't extend their
>>>culture to America?
>>The influences melded together, even then, even to many people's dismay
>>today.
>
>
> Let me try this: you claim that the English fled England -- their
> culture in particular. I claim they didn't flee, that they arrived here
> to extend their culture.
Well, let's see, the Puritans weren't exactly welcome back in England, and
neither were the Quakers. If you want to suggest that the Puritans and
Quakers were mainstream English culture, I suspect I will giggle at you and
type "hilarious". That their culture was of English origin, that I would
accept. However, it doesn't really follow that one could say "they were
extending their culture"; actually, they were moving their culture away from
the solid oppression of the homeland.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle
> x-no-archive: yes
> "Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>"D. Long" wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>Except for New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina
>>and South Carolina and quite a few other areas. That is confusing the
>>holders of the royal grants and the people who actually immigrated.
>>> Is this your way of claiming that the English didn't extend their
>>>culture to America?
>>The influences melded together, even then, even to many people's dismay
>>today.
>
>
> Let me try this: you claim that the English fled England -- their
> culture in particular. I claim they didn't flee, that they arrived here
> to extend their culture.
Well, let's see, the Puritans weren't exactly welcome back in England, and
neither were the Quakers. If you want to suggest that the Puritans and
Quakers were mainstream English culture, I suspect I will giggle at you and
type "hilarious". That their culture was of English origin, that I would
accept. However, it doesn't really follow that one could say "they were
extending their culture"; actually, they were moving their culture away from
the solid oppression of the homeland.
--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle