Alun Palmer

"Sancho Panza" wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    >
    > "D. Long" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> Actually, America is a nation of Americans -- native-born and
    >> numbering ... what? ... 240 million?
    >
    > Intersession must be over at some community colleges, and once again we
    > are treated to specious syllogisms. The perfersser, for sure, could
    > quickly educate us as to how many of those 240 million are descended
    > from immigrants.
    >
    >
    >
    >

Well, how many native Americans are there? Everyone else is descended from
immigrants.

No.One

The Native Americans emigrated from Asia; thus, they too are descendents of
immigrants. Heck, if we apply that logic, every nation in the world is a
nation of immigrants.

I will leave with the following truth. When my ancestors came to this
country, it was poor and backwards compared Europe. My ancestors came here
to build a nation. They were great and brave people! On the other hand,
today's immigrants come here because they want to take advantage of a great
nation; thus, they are parasites that could not build their own countries
into great places to live! These people should be in no way compared to
earlier waves of European immigrants. It is like comparing apples and
oranges!

"Alun Palmer" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Sancho Panza" wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    > >
    > > "D. Long" wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >> Actually, America is a nation of Americans -- native-born and
    > >> numbering ... what? ... 240 million?
    > >
    > > Intersession must be over at some community colleges, and once again we
    > > are treated to specious syllogisms. The perfersser, for sure, could
    > > quickly educate us as to how many of those 240 million are descended
    > > from immigrants.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > Well, how many native Americans are there? Everyone else is descended from
    > immigrants.

Tiny Human Ferret

Alun Palmer wrote:
    > "Sancho Panza" wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >
    >>"D. Long" wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>> Actually, America is a nation of Americans -- native-born and
    >>> numbering ... what? ... 240 million?
    >>Intersession must be over at some community colleges, and once again we
    >>are treated to specious syllogisms. The perfersser, for sure, could
    >>quickly educate us as to how many of those 240 million are descended
    >>from immigrants.

    >
    > Well, how many native Americans are there? Everyone else is descended from
    > immigrants.

The "natives" themselves immigrated in the distant past. But what has that
got to do with the year 2003?


--
Be kind to your neighbors, even | "Global domination, of course!"
though they be transgenic chimerae. | -- The Brain
"People that are really very weird can get into sensitive
positions and have a tremendous impact on history." -- Dan Quayle

Sancho Panza

"Tiny Human Ferret" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > The "natives" themselves immigrated in the distant past. But what has that
got to do with the year 2003?

If the justification is who was here first, then those first here have all
the right in the world to evict those who try to arrive later. As we have
seen here, the basic justifications offered in varying degrees for asserting
tennantship is 1)superior force and 2) superior numbers. If that constitutes
the basis for some sort of moral high ground, it really isn't exclusive to
any single group, whether past, present or future. Those two criteria seem
to be the operative ones, no matter who doesn't like them.

Sancho Panza

"no.one" wrote in message
news:3e37eb42$1_3@newsfeed...
    > When my ancestors came to this country, it was poor and backwards compared
Europe. My ancestors came here to build a nation. They were great and
brave people!

That's counter to your own logic. If Europe was so wealthy and advanced, why
emigrate? Most of the waves of immigration, be they from Europe, Africa,
Asia or the Americas, were inspired by poor to abusive economic and/or
social conditions. Until the 20th century, the United States was not much
more than a growing tyke, and one experiencing major growth pains with
events like the Civil War.

Americankernel

"no.one" wrote in message
news:3e37eb42$1_3@newsfeed...
    > The Native Americans emigrated from Asia; thus, they too are descendents
of
    > immigrants. Heck, if we apply that logic, every nation in the world is a
    > nation of immigrants.
    > I will leave with the following truth. When my ancestors came to this
    > country, it was poor and backwards compared Europe. My ancestors came
here
    > to build a nation. They were great and brave people! On the other hand,
    > today's immigrants come here because they want to take advantage of a
great
    > nation; thus, they are parasites that could not build their own countries
    > into great places to live! These people should be in no way compared to
    > earlier waves of European immigrants. It is like comparing apples and
    > oranges!

Aside from the irritating top-post, that was fine, well-reasoned commentary.

Too many people in America today are being (and have been) indoctrinated in
what can best be described as a nearly viral form of "trivia Americana"
instead of being truly educated about America's history and heritage. It
begins with stupid, un-American tales about that pathetic, second-hand,
burqua-wearing statue in New York harbor and ends at the front door of the
ACLU with side stops for "enrichment lessons" about false American values
like "multiculturalism, "diversity" and some bastardized new definition of
the word "tolerance." What's really ironic it that the latter concept has
devolved well beyond the enactment of supposed "hate crime" laws and is
rushing headlong into the de-facto regulation of thought.

What basically is resulting from all this is the damnation of "traditional
free speech" in the name of "what liberals say is OK to call free speech."
Soon, you'll have a little red book to consult before you can safely open
your mouth.

--
The American Kernel

D. Long

x-no-archive: yes
"Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "D. Long" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Actually, America is a nation of Americans -- native-born and
    > numbering ... what? ... 240 million?
    > Intersession must be over at some community colleges, and once again we are
    > treated to specious syllogisms.

Be specific.

    > The perfersser, for sure, could quickly
    > educate us as to how many of those 240 million are descended from
    > immigrants.

A you claiming that a descendent of an immigrant
is himself an immigrant?

D. Long

x-no-archive: yes
"Sancho Panza" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "no.one" wrote in message
    > news:3e37eb42$1_3@newsfeed...
    > > When my ancestors came to this country, it was poor and backwards compared
    > Europe. My ancestors came here to build a nation. They were great and
    > brave people!
    > That's counter to your own logic. If Europe was so wealthy and advanced, why
    > emigrate?

In England, for example, many arrived to expand their
culture, not to flee from it.

    > Most of the waves of immigration, be they from Europe, Africa,
    > Asia or the Americas,

No "waves" of immigration ever arrived from Africa
or Asian until after 1965. And, anticipating your
ill-informed reference to the Chinese and Japanese
of the late 19th and early 20th centuries as being
a "wave," they weren't.

    > were inspired by poor to abusive economic and/or
    > social conditions.

Englishmen didn't flee the culture of England by migrating to
the English colonies, obviously.

    > Until the 20th century, the United States was not much
    > more than a growing tyke, and one experiencing major growth pains with
    > events like the Civil War.

Fascinating. But do you have a point?

Sancho Panza

"D. Long" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > In England, for example, many arrived to expand their culture, not to
flee from it.

Yup, expanding that famous U.K. tobacco in Virginia. Sure makes a whole of
no sense.

    > No "waves" of immigration ever arrived from Africaor Asian until after
1965. And, anticipating your ill-informed reference to the Chinese and
Japanese of the late 19th and early 20th centuries as being a "wave," they
weren't.

Proportiantely, the Chinese railroad workers far surpassed most other
immigrant groups, and the U.S. certainly thought that the tens of thousands
of Nisei presented enough of a threat in the first half of the 20th century
to intern tens of thousands of them.

    > Englishmen didn't flee the culture of England by migrating to the
English colonies, obviously.

Suggestion for an education trip: Williamsburg, Va. Then you might be able
to comment on colonial life.

    > > Until the 20th century, the United States was not much more than a
growing tyke, and one experiencing major growth pains with events like the
Civil War.
    > Fascinating. But do you have a point?

Unless one believes that the streets were paved with gold, life in
19th-century United States was NOT demonstrably superior in most respects to
nations like England that continued to exert their imperial dominance.

Sancho Panza

"D. Long" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > A you claiming that a descendent of an immigrant is himself an immigrant?

Is it possible that anyone born on U.S. soil is considered "native"?

Not just a "fascinating" idea, but also quite a radical one in certain
salons.

Sancho Panza

"no.one" wrote in message
news:3e36ed39$1_2@newsfeed...
    > Exactly, what I would expect from a Brit! I guess he has amnesia about
the fact that the BRITISH BROUGHT A HUGE NUMBER OF WHITE PEOPLE HERE IN
CHAINS. What about Cromwell's enslavement of the Irish? They were the
first slaves brought to this country and Barbados. What about the practice
of kidnapping white children and selling them into bondage? Oh yes, let's
not forget about the British transportees who were also brought here in
chains
to be literally worked to death! The fact is pure and simple! The lion's
share of white people who came to the America between 1609 and the American
Revolution came here in bondage. When the British could no longer play
this game after the war, they setup shop in Australia!

Oh boy! Make sure to tell D. Long. It may be time to create another revision
of history, especially as it has been so frequently espoused here.
.

Kamal R. Prasad

[email protected] (Shane) wrote in message news:...
    > sounds like you hate not only H1B fraud, but also H1B program itself
    >
    > 1. if you hate H1B fraud
    > fraud hurt not only you, but other qualified H1B workers as well. I
    > don't think any one supports fraud. if you personally know someone, go
    > ahead report that person.
    >
I am an Indian (not naturalized) who worked on the H1B visa and think
the H1-B is a fraud -perpetuated not by workers but by employers.
newcomers can't petitition lawmakers to enact laws. thats done by
businesses with dough in their pockets.

    > 2. if you hate H1B program itself
    > you miss the big picture here, the fact is if there is no H1B program,
    > tech companies in US will try to move jobs to somewhere outside US,
thats true. I work for an american company in India that is doing just
that.
but there are logistical problems that don't allow them to do that
easily. the infrastructure in India is not as good as that in U.S
(though the engineers are as good as anywhere else). besides, some
projects require co-ordination/customer interaction -and cannot be
dispersed across continents.

    > because they are not stupid, if they are forced to hire people with
    > poor performance within US, they just won't do that.
there are some projects that generate lots of revenue-and some that
don't supporting legacy systems doesn't. so cos. do move work outside
keeping not just cost of labor but also priority of work. if something
is critical to the survival of a co.-they wouldn't risk moving it out
even if it costs more to keep the work in US. to be fair, there are
both good and bad engineers in the U.S. its incorrect to categorize
engineers as good/bad depending on their nationality.
    > at that time, you
    > probably don't have many places to send your resume. Your assumption
    > that if no H1B program your jobs are protected is based on the total
    > number of jobs remains the same w or w/o H1B program. thats simply
    > won't be the same.
    >
for now, american employers are trying their best not to hire H1B
workers (so as not to stir a hornet's nest). so it does benefit them
in the short run. but if the economy does turn around (which I think
it will)-they will have a problem enticing foregin workers to leave
their jobs and face an uncertain future.

    > so, stop talking about things like 'the project is successful because
    > you are there'. the only way you can keep yourself empolyed is to have
    > more real education and more real experience.
    >
    >
    > wrote in message news:...
    > > I agree that the best candidates should get the jobs. But H1B candidates are
    > > merely hired because they are dirt cheap compared to americans. The average
    > > H1B wage is 34,000 versus 69,000 for an american. Companies blindly choose
    > > the cheaper candidate, regardless of the quality issue.
since the day I landed in US, to the day I left -I never got a salary
as low as that. if you hire a non-engg graduate who has done a crash
course in computers, you probably will end up with that wage.
    > >
    > > You can see this yourself by going to the LCA database.
    > >
minimum wage specified for my H1B petittiion 6 yrs back was 37000$
(+medical).
its got to be greater than that.
    > > Many of these projects fail because of these attitudes. I personally know of
    > > 8 projects where americans were replaced which ran into big problems.
    > >
    > > A lot of us have found the following regarding foreign laborers.
    > >
    > > Most are nice hard working people.
    > >
    > > Some are very bright.
    > >
    > > It seems a large number of them have no business in a position as a software
    > > engineer. More than 40% are here with fase credentials.
    > >
why will a company hire a contractor who cannot do the job -no matter
how little he is paid? an engg degree is not a ore-requisite to doing
a good job.
I know americans who do good programmign without an engg degree below
their belt. and I do know IVLY league graduates who look awfully
stupid in front of me.

    > > The fight is not against people coming here trying to get a better life, it
    > > is against ruthless corporations and politicians who are destroying the
    > > american technology industry.
yes-the kind of restrictions they have in place, the whole H1B visa
program is made from the ground up to give foreign workers a chance
for settling down in a more prosperous country in return for lower
salaries/bad working conditions.
    > It is against ruthless Indian placement
all businesses are ruthless. foreign workers need to go thro a
placement agency coz they need an H1B sponsor.

    > > companies which forge candidate backgrounds, and try to sell electrical
    > > engineers with no CS experience as highly skilled software professionals.
no employer asks for the degree certificate. but most do a personal
interview to dfind out if the candidate can do the job.
    > >
    > > No, I will not get out of here. It's my company, my industry. We didn't
    > > create it just to sit idly by and watch it get destroyed by greed.
    > >
tell ur lawmakers to scrap the H1B program.
regards
-kamal

    > >

Tom L

No, Sancho. The British did offer youthful offenders the choice between jail
and the American colonies. They also did sentence some youthful offenders
directly to the American colonies. Much in the way that most American minor
judiciary once offered young men the choice between jail and the army, and some
still do so today in the case of minor offenders.

The Scotch-Irish protestants from Ulster in Northern Ireland came to the
American colonies for the greater part voluntarily, seeing no future for
themselves in Ulster. The reasons are obvious even today! Religious freedom and
peace.

There were a certain amount of Scotch highland rebels and some Scotch-Irish
highlanders who were sentenced to the American colonies, but, many also came
voluntarily or one jump ahead of the law. There too, peace and religious freedom
play a large part.

There also was a large percentage of voluntary 7 year indenture which paid for
the trip to America and assured the would be colonist that they had a place to
stay when they got here and food on the table, in many cases apprenticships were
offered. What happened was, if the indentured servant didn't like the treatment
once they got here they just walked off. That's the way it was...

Btw, seven year apprenticships were the norm back then.

Then let's not forget the large population of German, Dutch and French
Protestants who came to America early in the colonial era for reasons of
religious freedom and peace. Protestants were persecuted in most of continental
Europe with the exception of England and a few of the German states. We tend to
forget how fragile Protestantism was in those days!

The only British penal colony seems to have been Georgia---but---even there we
are only talking about a couple thousand of adult criminals. Georgia was
founded late and only had about 26,000 total white people in it at the time the
US Constitution was drawn up.

Sancho Panza wrote:

    > "no.one" wrote in message
    > news:3e36ed39$1_2@newsfeed...
    > > Exactly, what I would expect from a Brit! I guess he has amnesia about
    > the fact that the BRITISH BROUGHT A HUGE NUMBER OF WHITE PEOPLE HERE IN
    > CHAINS. What about Cromwell's enslavement of the Irish? They were the
    > first slaves brought to this country and Barbados. What about the practice
    > of kidnapping white children and selling them into bondage? Oh yes, let's
    > not forget about the British transportees who were also brought here in
    > chains
    > to be literally worked to death! The fact is pure and simple! The lion's
    > share of white people who came to the America between 1609 and the American
    > Revolution came here in bondage. When the British could no longer play
    > this game after the war, they setup shop in Australia!
    > Oh boy! Make sure to tell D. Long. It may be time to create another revision
    > of history, especially as it has been so frequently espoused here.
    > .

Concernedcitizen

    > so, stop talking about things like 'the project is successful because
    > you are there'. the only way you can keep yourself empolyed is to have
    > more real education and more real experience.
    >
F.U. man. Can you tell approximately what KIND od education and what
KIND of experience is needed to get a job.
H1B system destroys America, create higher unemployment rate, as a
result reduce consumer confidence.
H1B system discourage to get education in Computer Scientce, why
bother if you going to be replaced by H1B.

Think about that

Kamal R. Prasad

[email protected] (ConcernedCitizen) wrote in message news:...
    > > so, stop talking about things like 'the project is successful because
    > > you are there'. the only way you can keep yourself empolyed is to have
    > > more real education and more real experience.
    > >
    > F.U. man. Can you tell approximately what KIND od education and what
    > KIND of experience is needed to get a job.
depends on the job. some jobs require more engg. knowledge -some
less.
    > H1B system destroys America, create higher unemployment rate, as a
    > result reduce consumer confidence.
it also introduces better (english) speaking people into the system.
    > H1B system discourage to get education in Computer Scientce, why
    > bother if you going to be replaced by H1B.
    >
its not that simple. there was a time 2 yrs back when jobs went
abegging and employers pressurized congressmen to increase H1B quota
(the way they are doing now for nurses). if you don't want foreigners
in your country now-you(americans) should not have inconvenienced them
in the first place by asking them to move in, buy houses, furniture ,
car etc not to mention pay social security taxes too.
regards
-kamal

    > Think about that