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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Trailer Park (https://britishexpats.com/forum/trailer-park-96/)
-   -   Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps (https://britishexpats.com/forum/trailer-park-96/germanwing-aircraft-crashes-french-alps-855300/)

Scouse Express Mar 24th 2015 1:38 pm
Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Just in case you haven't heard - An Airbus A320 Crashed in the Alps this morning;

Germanwings airliner 4U 9525 crashes in French Alps - BBC News

markonline1 Mar 24th 2015 2:48 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
They always start dropping out the sky just before I fly home!

Nutek Mar 24th 2015 2:53 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by markonline1 (Post 11601182)
They always start dropping out the sky just before I fly home!
Don't say that. 2 weeks for me.

markonline1 Mar 26th 2015 1:24 am
Re: Planespotting
 
The NY Times is reporting that the aircraft voice recorder is showing that one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit before the crash. He is heard firstly knocking lightly, before harder and finally trying to break the door down. There is never a response from the cockpit. Yet another crash that is beyond the realms of strange. If the PIC passed out fr some reason, you would expect the aircraft to be on a/p during the cruise so the aircraft should have remained at its flight level. If it was pilot suicide, you would have thought a dive would have been performed rather than the reported 4,000 ft/min descent reportedbenign isn't exactly the descent of someone pushing forward on the stick to kill themsleves. Very strange.

Jerseygirl Mar 26th 2015 1:26 am
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Nutek (Post 11601187)
Don't say that. 2 weeks for me.
3 weeks for me. :thumbsup:

lansbury Mar 26th 2015 3:58 am
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by markonline1 (Post 11601182)
They always start dropping out the sky just before I fly home!
If it is only one you are OK. Two then you should be worried as things happen in threes. :p

scrubbedexpat091 Mar 26th 2015 10:54 am
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by markonline1 (Post 11602822)
The NY Times is reporting that the aircraft voice recorder is showing that one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit before the crash. He is heard firstly knocking lightly, before harder and finally trying to break the door down. There is never a response from the cockpit. Yet another crash that is beyond the realms of strange. If the PIC passed out fr some reason, you would expect the aircraft to be on a/p during the cruise so the aircraft should have remained at its flight level. If it was pilot suicide, you would have thought a dive would have been performed rather than the reported 4,000 ft/min descent reportedbenign isn't exactly the descent of someone pushing forward on the stick to kill themsleves. Very strange.
This one will be an interesting outcome I think. I take it they don't have a f/a go and sit inside the flight deck when one of the pilots leave? I know some US airlines do that, so nobody can get locked out and someone can let the other pilot back in if there is an issue.

Cardienscarf Mar 26th 2015 11:02 am
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by markonline1 (Post 11601182)
They always start dropping out the sky just before I fly home!
Originally Posted by Nutek (Post 11601187)
Don't say that. 2 weeks for me.
I flew US to UK on the same day and my plane didn't go down so yours should be fine :nod:

Nutek Mar 26th 2015 11:03 am
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Cardienscarf (Post 11603120)
I flew US to UK on the same day and my plane didn't go down so yours should be fine :nod:
You should make a graph! Those always look more impressive and convincing. ;)

Pulaski Mar 26th 2015 12:08 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by markonline1 (Post 11602822)
The NY Times is reporting that the aircraft voice recorder is showing that one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit before the crash. He is heard firstly knocking lightly, before harder and finally trying to break the door down. There is never a response from the cockpit. Yet another crash that is beyond the realms of strange. If the PIC passed out fr some reason, you would expect the aircraft to be on a/p during the cruise so the aircraft should have remained at its flight level. If it was pilot suicide, you would have thought a dive would have been performed rather than the reported 4,000 ft/min descent reportedbenign isn't exactly the descent of someone pushing forward on the stick to kill themsleves. Very strange.
It is, indeed, very strange. There are several scenarios being discussed, and none them are especially plausible, but presumably one of them happened. I wonder if there is enough left of the PIC to do any sort of drug/ tox analysis? Is it possible that there was someone else in the cockpit? Is it time to add video to the flight recorder data?

Nutek Mar 26th 2015 12:13 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 11603162)
It is, indeed, very strange. There are several scenarios being discussed, and none them are especially plausible, but presumably one of them happened. I wonder if there is enough left of the PIC to do any sort of drug/ tox analysis? Is it possible that there was someone else in the cockpit? Is it time to add video to the flight recorder data?
It is surprising to me that video isn't standard already. It must be just about the only place left that ISN'T being recorded by someone.
Now I think about it, I am also surprised that all this data isn't streamed and monitored in real time.

Nutek Mar 26th 2015 12:15 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Dunno how reliable this is...

Germanwings co-pilot intended to destroy plane, says French prosecutor – live updates | World news | The Guardian

Pulaski Mar 26th 2015 12:20 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Nutek (Post 11603169)
It is surprising to me that video isn't standard already. It must be just about the only place left that ISN'T being recorded by someone.
Now I think about it, I am also surprised that all this data isn't streamed and monitored in real time.
It's only a matter of time before it is streamed and monitored, ...... and connected to a flight computer that can take control of a pilotless plane, or override a suicidal pilot. The sooner this happens, the better.

Nutek Mar 26th 2015 12:22 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 11603176)
It's only a matter of time before it is streamed and monitored, ...... and connected to a flight computer that can take control of a pilotless plane, or override a suicidal pilot. The sooner this happens, the better.
Ryanair can stick a GoPro on the dash.

scrubbedexpat091 Mar 26th 2015 1:22 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Nutek (Post 11603169)
It is surprising to me that video isn't standard already. It must be just about the only place left that ISN'T being recorded by someone.
Now I think about it, I am also surprised that all this data isn't streamed and monitored in real time.
Don't know about Europe and elsewhere, but in the US pilots have fought tooth and nail not to have camera's installed. The NTSB want's them, but they have no regulatory authority so can't mandate them, and the FAA doesn't seem to be in a hurry to require them, and of course the unions fight it as well.

I've heard everything from pilots not wanting their last moments on video to being afraid airlines will use to to get rid of pilots and pretty much everything in between.

Pulaski Mar 26th 2015 1:34 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 11603258)
Don't know about Europe and elsewhere, but in the US pilots have fought tooth and nail not to have camera's installed. The NTSB want's them, but they have no regulatory authority so can't mandate them, and the FAA doesn't seem to be in a hurry to require them, and of course the unions fight it as well.

I've heard everything from pilots not wanting their last moments on video to being afraid airlines will use to to get rid of pilots and pretty much everything in between.
They can fight change, but change will come. Unfortunately it always takes a few fatal accidents before law-makers and regulators feel empowered to act.

Yorkieabroad Mar 26th 2015 1:35 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Nutek (Post 11603169)
It is surprising to me that video isn't standard already. It must be just about the only place left that ISN'T being recorded by someone.
Now I think about it, I am also surprised that all this data isn't streamed and monitored in real time.
They were discussing this on one of the news channels yesterday, and it basically came down to the pilots/unions seeing it as an infringement on their privacy. A mate who flies SouthWest reckons he is in a minority in supporting them, because, as he says, "I fly short haul so I never get chance to have a proper nap anyway....."

Honestly, as you say, with the amount of monitoring going on elsewhere, I'm amazed they can still get away with the privacy angle. I mean, the chap on the McDonalds drive thru window has a camera on him to make sure he's not palming quarters, but a pilot has privacy rights that prevent him from being filmed while hurtling through the air at 500 miles an hour in a metal tube 5 miles above the earth with 2/3/400 folk behind him? C'mon.....

Yorkieabroad Mar 26th 2015 1:36 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 11603176)
It's only a matter of time before it is streamed and monitored, ...... and connected to a flight computer that can take control of a pilotless plane, or override a suicidal pilot. The sooner this happens, the better.
Oooh - that's got to be a hackers wet dream:lol:

Pulaski Mar 26th 2015 1:38 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Yorkieabroad (Post 11603282)
..... Honestly, as you say, with the amount of monitoring going on elsewhere, I'm amazed they can still get away with the privacy angle. I mean, the chap on the McDonalds drive thru window has a camera on him to make sure he's not palming quarters, but a pilot has privacy rights that prevent him from being filmed while hurtling through the air at 500 miles an hour in a metal tube 5 miles above the earth with 2/3/400 folk behind him? C'mon.....
Why do you hate the Constitution so much? :confused:
Originally Posted by Yorkieabroad (Post 11603287)
Oooh - that's got to be a hackers wet dream. .....
Probably so, but when was the last time you heard of a Predator being hacked and redirected?

Yorkieabroad Mar 26th 2015 1:40 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 11603258)
Don't know about Europe and elsewhere, but in the US pilots have fought tooth and nail not to have camera's installed. The NTSB want's them, but they have no regulatory authority so can't mandate them, and the FAA doesn't seem to be in a hurry to require them, and of course the unions fight it as well.

I've heard everything from pilots not wanting their last moments on video to being afraid airlines will use to to get rid of pilots and pretty much everything in between.
To be fair, thats the only bit that I could sort of understand - pretty distressing for the relatives if it got out. The rest of it - tough. All sorts of workplaces are monitored now, so why should your workplace be sacrosanct, especially when it is responsible for so many lives.

scrubbedexpat091 Mar 26th 2015 1:40 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 11603280)
They can fight change, but change will come. Unfortunately it always takes a few fatal accidents before law-makers and regulators feel empowered to act.
They do call the FAA the tombstone agency for a reason.


Co-pilot wanted to ‘destroy’ Germanwings Flight 9525: French prosecutor - National | Globalnews.ca


I will never understand what makes people wan't to take others out with them when they apparently want to die. So sad 1 person with issues took so many lives.

scrubbedexpat091 Mar 26th 2015 1:41 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Yorkieabroad (Post 11603292)
To be fair, thats the only bit that I could sort of understand - pretty distressing for the relatives if it got out. The rest of it - tough. All sorts of workplaces are monitored now, so why should your workplace be sacrosanct, especially when it is responsible for so many lives.
Well it's not my workplace, all my work places have always been recorded.

Yorkieabroad Mar 26th 2015 1:41 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 11603290)
Why do you hate the Constitution so much? :confused:
Indeed - it lets me drink and drive!:eek:


Probably so, but when was the last time you heard of a Predator being hacked and redirected?
More to the point, when do you think will be the first time......?

Yorkieabroad Mar 26th 2015 1:42 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 11603296)
Well it's not my workplace, all my work places have always been recorded.
Sorry, I didn't mean "your" as in Jsmith321 - I meant "your" as in pilots!

scrubbedexpat091 Mar 26th 2015 1:43 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Yorkieabroad (Post 11603298)
Sorry, I didn't mean "your" as in Jsmith321 - I meant "your" as in pilots!
My bad.;)

markonline1 Mar 26th 2015 2:21 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Pretty disturbing revelations coming out about the crash. Sounds like the ultimate example of German efficiency to me.

AlphaTangoMike Mar 26th 2015 2:21 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
The pilots don't want to be on camera as anyone reviewing the footage would have proof of the cockpit shenanigans. Sleeping, picking noses, playing silly buggers and 'interaction' with flight attendants.

md95065 Mar 26th 2015 2:41 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Yorkieabroad (Post 11603292)
To be fair, thats the only bit that I could sort of understand - pretty distressing for the relatives if it got out. The rest of it - tough. All sorts of workplaces are monitored now, so why should your workplace be sacrosanct, especially when it is responsible for so many lives.
In the U.S., at least, while transcripts of cockpit voice recorders are published (with expletives and "non pertinent" names redacted), the actual audio itself is never released (and I can't think of any occasion when such a recording has been "leaked"). I assume that the same procedure would be followed for video recordings.

GeoffM Mar 26th 2015 3:21 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by md95065 (Post 11603351)
In the U.S., at least, while transcripts of cockpit voice recorders are published (with expletives and "non pertinent" names redacted), the actual audio itself is never released (and I can't think of any occasion when such a recording has been "leaked"). I assume that the same procedure would be followed for video recordings.
Several here. Warning: a bit distressing.

S Folinsky Mar 26th 2015 3:26 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by markonline1 (Post 11601182)
They always start dropping out the sky just before I fly home!
Tell me.

Korean Air 801 went down shortly after I had returned from a trip to Korea on Korean Air.

I recently returned from a trip to Italy and Israel on "SkyTeam" airlines of Air France, Alitalia and Delta with a side trip on Vueling.

<sigh>

lansbury Mar 26th 2015 4:14 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by Nutek (Post 11603178)
Ryanair can stick a GoPro on the dash.
They would charge an extra fee to fly on an aircraft with video monitoring.

md95065 Mar 26th 2015 4:33 pm
Re: Planespotting
 
Originally Posted by GeoffM (Post 11603396)
Several here. Warning: a bit distressing.
:(

I wonder if those were released through some kind of FOI request made by some idiot who thought that the public had a "right to know" or if they were leaked.

sir_eccles Mar 26th 2015 4:34 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Clearly the only solution is to catheterize all pilots.

Or give them a key to the door?

Nutek Mar 26th 2015 4:38 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Originally Posted by sir_eccles (Post 11603490)
Clearly the only solution is to catheterize all pilots.

Or give them a key to the door?
I guess the thinking is that, if you give them a key, it can be taken from them?

Still, this obviously needs more thought than just having the pilot doing a Fred Flintstone trying to open the damn thing.

Awful for him in particular I would think. He would have known sooner / longer than the rest (I assume).

lansbury Mar 26th 2015 4:40 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Originally Posted by sir_eccles (Post 11603490)

Or give them a key to the door?
That would then get us back to giving a way for anyone who got the key to open the door. The solution is what some US airlines do, where there are only two flight crew, have a cabin crew member go on the flight deck if one of the pilots needs a potty break.

sir_eccles Mar 26th 2015 4:45 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Originally Posted by lansbury (Post 11603496)
That would then get us back to giving a way for anyone who got the key to open the door. The solution is what some US airlines do, where there are only two flight crew, have a cabin crew member go on the flight deck if one of the pilots needs a potty break.
At a certain point more people will have died from pilot suicide than in 9/11 (probably not that far off).

Diapers?

Pollyana Mar 26th 2015 4:46 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Originally Posted by lansbury (Post 11603496)
That would then get us back to giving a way for anyone who got the key to open the door. The solution is what some US airlines do, where there are only two flight crew, have a cabin crew member go on the flight deck if one of the pilots needs a potty break.
Some European ones do; it appears Lufthansa (and its offshoots) isn't one of them.

markonline1 Mar 26th 2015 4:51 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Originally Posted by lansbury (Post 11603496)
That would then get us back to giving a way for anyone who got the key to open the door. The solution is what some US airlines do, where there are only two flight crew, have a cabin crew member go on the flight deck if one of the pilots needs a potty break.
Yep. And I suspect that will soon become a mandatory procedure for all airlines.

Michael Mar 26th 2015 5:02 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Originally Posted by sir_eccles (Post 11603490)
Or give them a key to the door?
The A320 is designed with safeguards to allow emergency entry if a pilot inside is unresponsive, but the override code known to the crew does not go into effect — and indeed goes into a lockdown — if the person inside the cockpit specifically denies entry, according to an Airbus training video and a pilot who has six years of experience with the jets.

Alone at controls, co-pilot sought to 'destroy' the plane

I suspect regulators assumed that would allow the crew access while keeping the terrorists out. If they don't do it that way, then a gun to the head of a crew member or a terrorist with a bomb may possibly gain access.

In my opinion, the current way is usually a better option. In the US a 2nd person must always be in the cockpit at all times but I don't think that helps too much since I suspect a pilot can probably easily overpower a stewardess or anybody if he has a gun.

lansbury Mar 26th 2015 5:08 pm
Re: Germanwing Aircraft Crashes in French Alps
 
Originally Posted by Michael (Post 11603522)
In the US a 2nd person must always be in the cockpit at all times but I don't think that helps too much since I suspect a pilot can probably easily overpower a stewardess or anybody if he has a gun.
That's why in the UK all crew are screened the same as the passengers, to try and prevent weapons getting on board.


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