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Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by plasticbag_uk
(Post 12405118)
When I was 21 years old my Mum died of a rare blood disease called 'Waldenstroms', she had developed it over some years, as I just said it killed her.
I am a truck driver, I work for a very good company who seem to really care, it is nationwide with about 2,000 trucks and yet I can actually call and chat to the CEO or VP when I get a problem. A few years back I went to the loo and to my shock started peeing blood and I mean pure blood, not just a pink tint in the urine, early in 2016 I started to loose energy and felt weak when trying to do strenuous work, the symptoms got gradually worse until a week before Thanksgiving as I was pulling some product hoses out of a tanker at work I felt so weak I couldn't do it, a fellow worker did the work for me and said I should go to hospital. I got home the afternoon that day and my wife told me I had turned grey and made an appointment with the local doctors, I went, they took blood and sent me home. That night I got a call from a lab in Vermont telling me to go straight to the nearest ER, I refused but my wife dragged me in, my blood count was only 4.9 and I needed a blood transfusion ASAP. Glens Falls hospital the saints that they are gave me 4 units of blood over a 36 hour period and saved my life, however they found I had something unknown in my blood, it was just pure luck that a new doctor had recently joined the staff there and recognized my symptoms, after a bone marrow biopsy it was confirmed that I had Waldenstroms disease like my Mum, obviously I inherited it, it is a rare cancer with no known cure. Over the first 4 months I was given chemo which almost killed me and actually increased the cancer levels. I was then given a trial drug which costs a terrifying $16k a month, obviously no regular working person can afford this, I have been told to not even worry about it by the doctor. My total hospital bill so far is way over half a million dollars... Am I worried ? No, because I am just happy to be alive, worrying about the cost of healthcare just makes you feel worse. Even though my company health insurance must be pushing for them to find some way of getting rid of me, the CEO and VP stand by me and make sure I stay employed and covered. Even so - in the United States, medical debt is considered unsecured debt and can be wiped out if you declare bankruptcy. Declaring a Chapter 7 bankruptcy will get it all wiped out (there is no debt limit), but you must be under a means threshold (which is your income for the past six months compared to the median IRS income for your state - however you can make deductions etc to try and get below that, and if you've been out of work or on unpaid medical leave for six months - presto, you are below the threshold and can file Chapter 7). As well some property can be sold off to pay for the debt, however some property (such as, generally, your house) is exempt and can't be sold. A lot of people declaring Chapter 7 keep most of their property. Declaring a Chapter 13 bankruptcy is not subject to a means threshold, and will get a lot of it wiped out, and the rest put pro-rata under a repayment plan in line with your income and expenses. Chapter 13 bankruptcy does come with a debt limit of about $400,000. Bankruptcy is an legitimate and viable option for excessive medical debt in the United States. Someone isn't just stuck with it as a millstone around their neck for the rest of their life. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Can I just add: This is why if you fall into hard times you need to renegotiate terms with your credit card, mortgage lender etc - you need to, in the negotiation, threaten to declare bankruptcy. The credit card company generally won't get anything if you declare bankruptcy so will be far more eager to negotiate with you. Generally speaking - your home cannot be foreclosed on, even if that process has started, if you declare bankruptcy (the judge will grant a stay while things get re-organised and overdue payments will be put onto a court-written, not lender-written, repayment plan). So for instance if you run into trouble paying your mortgage because of medical debt (or other debt) - bankruptcy is an option because your other debt can get settled/discharged which frees up the money you need for the mortgage etc, and overdue payments will be put onto a manageable plan.
So anyone on this thread who has medical debt and is struggling to find a way out - consult a bankruptcy attorney in your state. There are ways out. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by carcajou
(Post 12405225)
For some reason, when I first read your reply, the last part didn't come through on my phone so I assumed your out-of-pocket was over half a million, though now I understand that is being pushed on to your insurance.
Even so - in the United States, medical debt is considered unsecured debt and can be wiped out if you declare bankruptcy. Declaring a Chapter 7 bankruptcy will get it all wiped out (there is no debt limit), but you must be under a means threshold (which is your income for the past six months compared to the median IRS income for your state - however you can make deductions etc to try and get below that, and if you've been out of work or on unpaid medical leave for six months - presto, you are below the threshold and can file Chapter 7). As well some property can be sold off to pay for the debt, however some property (such as, generally, your house) is exempt and can't be sold. A lot of people declaring Chapter 7 keep most of their property. Declaring a Chapter 13 bankruptcy is not subject to a means threshold, and will get a lot of it wiped out, and the rest put pro-rata under a repayment plan in line with your income and expenses. Chapter 13 bankruptcy does come with a debt limit of about $400,000. Bankruptcy is an legitimate and viable option for excessive medical debt in the United States. Someone isn't just stuck with it as a millstone around their neck for the rest of their life. Yes it dings your credit, but it's not that bad, and within 6 months of discharge banks are sending you mail for credit cards and car loans, not ideal terms, but one can get started rebuilding pretty quickly, and by the 2nd year after discharge, I had a respectable credit score again even though the bankruptcy stays on for 10 years or it did at the time I filed. I get the mindset when people say not to worry about medical debt, but unless wealthy and can easily self pay, it's difficult not to worry, especially if you find yourself ill and cannot afford insurance, co-pays, and the fees that need to be paid to access healthcare. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by Jsmth321
(Post 12405404)
I filed Chapter 7 in the early 2000's due to medical debt, it was huge amount of debt but more then I could pay back in a reasonable time, and I did have insurance at the time, but they didn't want to pay, and being not wealthy it was simply cheaper to declare chapter 7 then to fight the insurance company.
Yes it dings your credit, but it's not that bad, and within 6 months of discharge banks are sending you mail for credit cards and car loans, not ideal terms, but one can get started rebuilding pretty quickly, and by the 2nd year after discharge, I had a respectable credit score again even though the bankruptcy stays on for 10 years or it did at the time I filed. I get the mindset when people say not to worry about medical debt, but unless wealthy and can easily self pay, it's difficult not to worry, especially if you find yourself ill and cannot afford insurance, co-pays, and the fees that need to be paid to access healthcare. The USA is unable to solve the medical-care issue. A society can be judged by how it treats the least well-off, by that measure the USA fails dismally. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by morpeth
(Post 12405464)
Bankruptcy is an option, though reading the posts above seems easy to advocate bankruptcy without taking into account what a family goes through up until that point. Just threatening bankruptcy doesn't necessarily stop collection activities, and of course bankruptcy comes with a cost which not all can afford. Seems a steep price in financial and emotional distress for medical care that any other industrialized country finds a way for citizens to have access too. Yes one can recover from bankruptcy, but why do people have to go through this to pay outrageous medical bills ?
The USA is unable to solve the medical-care issue. A society can be judged by how it treats the least well-off, by that measure the USA fails dismally. As I said in another post, total taxes in Canada are less then what I would have to pay just in monthly premiums basically for healthcare, so I think single payer public funded system is an excellent value. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by Jsmth321
(Post 12405497)
It's not what a country should do, but it's what the US has chosen to do so until that changes, bankruptcy will be a valid took to use to solve medical debt when one cannot afford to pay it, and even with insurance you can end up in debt from medical bills, insurance companies will find every little way possible to not pay a bill.
As I said in another post, total taxes in Canada are less then what I would have to pay just in monthly premiums basically for healthcare, so I think single payer public funded system is an excellent value. My only point is bankruptcy is usually by the time sometimes arrives at that point- and assuming hey have the money to file for bankruptcy- they have already suffered stress, worry and most likely harassment from collection agencies. Plus there are some jobs one probably wont get if there is a bankruptcy on the record. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by carcajou
(Post 12405225)
For some reason, when I first read your reply, the last part didn't come through on my phone so I assumed your out-of-pocket was over half a million, though now I understand that is being pushed on to your insurance.
Bankruptcy is an legitimate and viable option for excessive medical debt in the United States. Someone isn't just stuck with it as a millstone around their neck for the rest of their life. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by Rete
(Post 12405642)
That is because he posted it twice and the second one has the last paragraph on it while the first did not.
As long as you are paying something towards the bill you do not have to declare bankruptcy. $25 a month and they can't touch you as you are making an effort. It's one alternative to bankruptcy. Especially if you have a disease that is reoccurring, as cancer can be, and there will be future hospitalizations and more medical bills. Isn't there a mandatory time period between bankruptcy filings? Sorry, the idea that you are paying something towards your bill doesn't protect one from wage garnishments or asset seizures- especially in America, someone taking your car can create a lot of hardship, or attaching your bank account. Sometimes making some payment monthly may help in negotiations with collection agency, but collection agencies can get quite aggressive if they think there is an asset they can seize and the amount justifies it. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
And I totally disagree with you. If you have reached an agreement with the doctor, hospital or whoever else you owe payment on medical bills to pay a small amount each month, a collection agency cannot touch you. I personally know of too many people who have reached just this type of agreement for payment of medical bills and know this to be true.
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Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by Rete
(Post 12405850)
And I totally disagree with you. If you have reached an agreement with the doctor, hospital or whoever else you owe payment on medical bills to pay a small amount each month, a collection agency cannot touch you. I personally know of too many people who have reached just this type of agreement for payment of medical bills and know this to be true.
You now write "If you have reached an agreement with the doctor, hospital or whoever else you owe payment on medical bills to pay a small amount each month, a collection agency cannot touch you. " Yes if one arrives at a written agreement a reputable collection agency will honor that. That to what degree such an arrangement can be arrived at depends on many factors-size of the bill, hospital or collection agency estimates of your capacity to pay , and costs of using the courts to enforce collection, etc etc. Considering the amount of bankruptcies resulting from high medical bills ( I think over 30%) I am not sure how many have or could have entered into arrangements to pay a minimal amount as you mentioned. Yes I agree arrangements can be made as you portray and not necessarily uncommon- still doesn't change the situation of a heartless system that drives people intro financial and emotional distress because of high medical bills. And for the working poor even $25 or $50 a month can be unaffordable. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
A bill has to be sent to a Collections Agency by a creditor. There is no central clearinghouse of debts that a Collections Agency can peruse and then go after on their own.
If there is an agreement with the debtor and creditor, like between a patient and a medical office, then the bill does not get sent to Collections. If there is no agreement, then it could be sent to Collections. But that can only be done after a certain amount of time. If a car was needed for work it is very unlikely a bankruptcy judge would allow it to be seized. Creditors would be very motivated to enter a repayment plan or negotiate a pro rata settlement if a debtor is struggling to pay. Allowing a debt to be put into bankruptcy court is a real throw of the dice for the creditor, and there is a real possibility they walk away with zero. That is why I stated earlier to always play that negotiating card if you fall into trouble. A medical outfit can't research your credit history without your written permission so they have no idea if you're really in trouble or not. Medical debt, especially, is considered unsecured debt. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
One important note, by the way - student loans are completely separate from this, and cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.
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Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by carcajou
(Post 12406128)
A bill has to be sent to a Collections Agency by a creditor. There is no central clearinghouse of debts that a Collections Agency can peruse and then go after on their own.
If there is an agreement with the debtor and creditor, like between a patient and a medical office, then the bill does not get sent to Collections. If there is no agreement, then it could be sent to Collections. But that can only be done after a certain amount of time. If a car was needed for work it is very unlikely a bankruptcy judge would allow it to be seized. Creditors would be very motivated to enter a repayment plan or negotiate a pro rata settlement if a debtor is struggling to pay. Allowing a debt to be put into bankruptcy court is a real throw of the dice for the creditor, and there is a real possibility they walk away with zero. That is why I stated earlier to always play that negotiating card if you fall into trouble. A medical outfit can't research your credit history without your written permission so they have no idea if you're really in trouble or not. Medical debt, especially, is considered unsecured debt. There is no law in any state I have been in that sets a time frame for a bill to go into collections. Collection agencies simply motivated by various factors, usually collection agents low paid and make their real money on commissions- as far as their motivation it varies on whether they wish to go to court or not. In one state I was in creditors could via court seize generally 25% of wages for lower paid workers so quite a difficulty. Of course that is assuming creditor can afford to attend court hearings etc etc Sometimes creditor uses old address and find way to act without much notice. Not too difficult for collection agency to access credit report at all, and most debts have fine print that permit access to credit reports ( though not all medical offices may have that fine print). I quite agree makes sense if one can et an agreement paying a minimal amount, the threat of bankruptcy works with some collection agents some not. A good idea if one has time is to review the laws governing collection agents in a particular state and document over-zealous collection actions or threats , sometimes this can be used to delay collection efforts as well. Collection agencies don't like answering state agencies following up on consumer complains. The courts offer lots of potential delays if one can afford legal representation. However in summary, the system itself is horrendous for effects on the poor and working poor, or hose suffering huge medical bills. The harassment form collection agents just adds to the emotional and financial turmoil. Some agents are really beyond the pale- for example in one state I was in it was a specific state law that if you told a collection agent in writing to never call again they had to stop- but many just ignored the rule Hospitals and doctors know very well how collection agents operate, but proceed anyway in such actions against their patients. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
If there is an agreement, it ALWAYS forestalls collections activity.
As you noted collections agents have different motivations. In some instances they have purchased the debt from the creditor. While you are correct that it can go to collections just after one day - in practise that is never done and it's usually about 6 months. One of the best ways to stall is to ask for paperwork. Lots of people who were behind in their mortgages, were granted breathing space in the Great Financial Crisis by demanding the bank "produce the note" - the original loan paperwork - to prove that there actually was a debt. So much rubbish had swirled around the financial sector (ie that loan packaged from original bank to that bank to that bank) that the financial creditors had a hard time finding the right paperwork to give to the judge as they didn't know where it was or what bank had it. If you are in trouble with your mortgage and end up in court always force the bank to produce the note. |
Re: An example of unexpected medical bills
Originally Posted by carcajou
(Post 12406177)
If there is an agreement, it ALWAYS forestalls collections activity.
As you noted collections agents have different motivations. In some instances they have purchased the debt from the creditor. While you are correct that it can go to collections just after one day - in practise that is never done and it's usually about 6 months. One of the best ways to stall is to ask for paperwork. Lots of people who were behind in their mortgages, were granted breathing space in the Great Financial Crisis by demanding the bank "produce the note" - the original loan paperwork - to prove that there actually was a debt. So much rubbish had swirled around the financial sector (ie that loan packaged from original bank to that bank to that bank) that the financial creditors had a hard time finding the right paperwork to give to the judge as they didn't know where it was or what bank had it. If you are in trouble with your mortgage and end up in court always force the bank to produce the note. As far as "always" forestalls collection action that again simply isn't true. Most of the time yes, but there are some very unscrupulous collection agencies out there, or inefficiencies that result in collection activity regardless. In practice as you say some period of time needs to pass, that could be three months or six months, but in the end the same issue- medical care driving people into emotional and financial distress, or bankruptcy. I have known several people who thought they had an agreement with the medical office, but then had to deal with creditors- sometimes inefficiency, sometimes not. I knew one person whose payment was received 1 day late because of a holiday- and account was placed with very aggressive collection agency the next day. It is like the example I gave in one state I was in it was expressly forbidden for collection agent to call after debtor informed collection agent to only communicate in writing- mostly this worked but not always. laws can only be effective if people follow, or can afford to enforce. |
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