Go Back  British Expats > General > Take it Outside!
Reload this Page >

WTF Murders/Killings in the US

WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Old Jun 4th 2019, 3:47 pm
  #2026  
Lt Col (Retd)
 
Pulaski's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 46,057
Pulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Not really, because in Britain people don't display their knives on their belts, don't walk in to bars openly with their knives. …. People by and large don't have knives on them when they go to the pub, get drunk, and pull knives on each other. People avoid having knives on them at such times, ....
Same largely true for guns in the US. In 17 years in the US I have only seen "open carry" once.
Pulaski is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 3:56 pm
  #2027  
BE Forum Addict
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 3,829
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Not really, because in Britain people don't display their knives on their belts, don't walk in to bars openly with their knives. It's only criminals who have them. People by and large don't have knives on them when they go to the pub, get drunk, and pull knives on each other. People avoid having knives on them at such times, because, as I knew as a youth, I might have had a slap on the wrist for under age drinking, I would have had a real issue if the police found a knife on me down town. And I am only talking about stashing a Stanley box cutter.
People have been prosecuted in the UK for possession of a box-cutter without due cause. There is also the blanket restriction on "offensive weapons", under which anything deemed to be such requires justification if carried....... so knuckledusters, clubs, sprays, etc., etc. are also "controlled". Many shops now also restrict sales of any knife to minors.

As with all such laws, these cannot prevent those determined to flout them, but they make it less of a general problem - and, in general, they reduce the likelihood of weapons being used in crime..... most stabbings are within a subset of the population, they are not due to robberies,etc., most burglars go unarmed (particularly since the crime of "aggravated burglary" carries a much tougher sentence).
macliam is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 4:01 pm
  #2028  
BE Forum Addict
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 3,829
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
Most pistols, including those issued to law enforcement and the military have calibres in the range 7.5-11.25mm, with the standard US Army pistol being 9mm, and many US police departments issuing .4 (10mm) pistols.

The only larger caliber pistols are .500's (12.5mm, and guns with calibers greater than .500 are already not legal in the US) which are stupidly large hand cannons, and are rather unwieldy so aren't used by the military, or law enforcement, and are pretty much only novelties for collectors, not a particularly practical weapon. Even Dirty Harry only used a .44 (11mm).

Ironically the .22 (5.5mm) is a particularly nasty pistol because if shot in the head the bullet will go in through your skull, but can't get out again, so it often bounces around inside, causing massive brain damage!
and? Your comment regarding the .22 is correct - but, overall, the chance of fatality or life-changing injury from such a calibre is far less than from a .357 or above, so, is your suggestion that nothing can be done because ......?? My suggestion is that the need for certain types of firearms should be questioned, your answer seems to be to close down the conversation before it starts.
macliam is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 4:12 pm
  #2029  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jul 2015
Location: Gulf Breeze, FL
Posts: 1,156
chawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond reputechawkins99 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
People have been prosecuted in the UK for possession of a box-cutter without due cause. There is also the blanket restriction on "offensive weapons", under which anything deemed to be such requires justification if carried....... so knuckledusters, clubs, sprays, etc., etc. are also "controlled". Many shops now also restrict sales of any knife to minors.

As with all such laws, these cannot prevent those determined to flout them, but they make it less of a general problem - and, in general, they reduce the likelihood of weapons being used in crime..... most stabbings are within a subset of the population, they are not due to robberies,etc., most burglars go unarmed (particularly since the crime of "aggravated burglary" carries a much tougher sentence).
You could say exactly the same about guns in the US.
chawkins99 is online now  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 4:19 pm
  #2030  
BE Forum Addict
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 3,829
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by chawkins99 View Post
You could say exactly the same about guns in the US.
I do...... but if you turn the corner on guns being "normal", it's a start.
macliam is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 4:29 pm
  #2031  
Lt Col (Retd)
 
Pulaski's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 46,057
Pulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
and? Your comment regarding the .22 is correct - but, overall, the chance of fatality or life-changing injury from such a calibre is far less than from a .357 or above, so, is your suggestion that nothing can be done because ......?? My suggestion is that the need for certain types of firearms should be questioned, your answer seems to be to close down the conversation before it starts.
It's the "certain types" I am questioning, not (necessarily) that nothing can be done - perhaps you would care to point out where I said that "nothing can be done"! I would just like to ensure that anything which is done is in an area where it will be measurably effective, rather than just, say, banning .500 pistols because they are big and scary. *

My point, if you reread what I wrote, is that (i) large calibres are not common, not practical, and not really used much either by military, law enforcement, or the public, and (ii) that the smallest commonly available pistol caliber is also extremely dangerous.

So my question to you is: What are these "certain types" to which you allude?

* FWIW I suspect that like alcohol in the UK, the problem is with the ready availability of cheap weapons in the US (cf alcohol in the UK), and that applying a tax of $500 on all light arms would eliminate many of the problems caused by street guns, though given how may guns are in public hands in the US, it would take a number of years for much change to be noticed unless there was a significant number of guns surrendered to "get them off the street". …. Maybe a $500/unit tax should be entirely recycled into a $500 buy-back program for street weapons?

Last edited by Pulaski; Jun 4th 2019 at 4:36 pm.
Pulaski is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 4:57 pm
  #2032  
BE Forum Addict
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 3,829
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
It's the "certain types" I am questioning, not (necessarily) that nothing can be done - perhaps you would care to point out where I said that "nothing can be done"! I would just like to ensure that anything which is done is in an area where it will be measurably effective, rather than just, say, banning .500 pistols because they are big and scary. *

My point, if you reread what I wrote, is that (i) large calibres are not common, not practical, and not really used much either by military, law enforcement, or the public, and (ii) that the smallest commonly available pistol caliber is also extremely dangerous.

So my question to you is: What are these "certain types" to which you allude?

* FWIW I suspect that like alcohol in the UK, the problem is with the ready availability of cheap weapons in the US (cf alcohol in the UK), and that applying a tax of $500 on all light arms would eliminate many of the problems caused by street guns, though given how may guns are in public hands in the US, it would take a number of years for much change to be noticed unless there was a significant number of guns surrendered to "get them off the street". …. Maybe a $500/unit tax should be entirely recycled into a $500 buy-back program for street weapons?
As firearms are now not generally available in the UK, my knowledge of them is dated..... however, why does Joe Public require a weapon designed to bypass scanners or to fire as rapidly as possible or to carry a round designed for maximum damage... there are many, many variants in your market that attempt to provide military-style lethality in civilian weaponry - and those closer involved know what they are - my suggestion is to ask why they should be on open sale..... just because you CAN doesn't mean you MUST. The taxation idea might impact the sale of new weapons (but I can already hear the squeals from the NRA) but the only way to make the possession of such weapons less popular is to change public opinion and to penalize their improper use.

However, for ANY change to happen, there needs to be a conversation about the way forward..... and that won't happen whilst those who want to kill any such move are allowed to sponsor politicians. Gun promoters should be treated like the cigarette companies......
macliam is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 5:10 pm
  #2033  
Lt Col (Retd)
 
Pulaski's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 46,057
Pulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
As firearms are now not generally available in the UK, my knowledge of them is dated..... however, why does Joe Public require a weapon designed to bypass scanners or to fire as rapidly as possible or to carry a round designed for maximum damage....
Based on your profile, you appear to have lived only in the UK and Portugal (?), so your post is a text book case of why people outside the US should be careful about wading into discussions about gun control in the US, because they don't know the issues and the laws in the US.

Case in point. A large number of rifles in the US are used for hunting - for shooting deer and feral pigs (which are a pest animal - there are literally millions of them roaming the US, across many states, though most notably in Texas, but they are extremely damaging, to plants and the ground surface, and also extremely dangerous/ aggressive), as well as coyotes, bears, elk, antelopes, and few other game animals, and "expanding ammunition" (your "round designed for maximum damage"), aka "dumdum bullets" or "hollow points", which are illegal for warfare under internal treaty, are legally required for hunting in the US, and it is precisely because they are highly damaging and quickly fatal, they are required for humane hunting.

In any case, if you want to do brutal damage to a human being, or an animal for that matter, use a short barrel shotgun and buckshot* at close range, as the damage caused is massively worse than any expanding bullet will ever cause!

* Birds are shot with "birdshot" which at hunting range causes relatively light tissue damage to the target game bird, albeit pepperig it with steel pellets.

Last edited by Pulaski; Jun 4th 2019 at 6:53 pm.
Pulaski is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 6:01 pm
  #2034  
Fair and balanced
 
kimilseung's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 13,705
kimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
Same largely true for guns in the US. In 17 years in the US I have only seen "open carry" once.
That suprises me, I don't think of WA as being overly gun culture, but I see a lot more than that, but still not a common occurrence. I probably put too much Seattle weighting on to my view of what WA culture is.
I think the issue regarding laws, is how it works in supporting or changing culture. Weapons are seen as a tool for resolution of issues in US culture, they are not in UK culture. The laws reflect those cultures Laws can and do also mould culture.

Last edited by kimilseung; Jun 4th 2019 at 6:05 pm.
kimilseung is online now  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 6:04 pm
  #2035  
Lt Col (Retd)
 
Pulaski's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 46,057
Pulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
.... Weapons are seen as a tool for resolution of issues in US culture, ....
I don't know where you got that from, so I can't begin to know where to begin to refute it.

It was apparently true in the second half of the 19th century, especially west of the Mississippi, but I don't think it is a defining characteristic of American society/ culture today.

Pulaski is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 7:14 pm
  #2036  
Stand-up Philosopher
 
caretaker's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Regina and Oliver
Posts: 10,817
caretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
I don't know where you got that from, so I can't begin to know where to begin to refute it.
It was apparently true in the second half of the 19th century, especially west of the Mississippi, but I don't think it is a defining characteristic of American society/ culture today.
The first example that comes to mind is the fellow that shot up his former place of work last week and killed 12 people.

caretaker is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 8:09 pm
  #2037  
Lt Col (Retd)
 
Pulaski's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 46,057
Pulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond reputePulaski has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
The first example that comes to mind is the fellow that shot up his former place of work last week and killed 12 people.
I don't think that "resolved any issues", it just created a load.

Maybe that's what KIS meant, but I thought that the guy who went postal just wanted to kill a load of people/ colleagues, because from what I read, few, if any, of the people he killed had anything to do with whatever issues he thought he had.
Pulaski is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 8:15 pm
  #2038  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,492
anotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
As firearms are now not generally available in the UK, my knowledge of them is dated..... however, why does Joe Public require a weapon designed to bypass scanners or to fire as rapidly as possible or to carry a round designed for maximum damage... there are many, many variants in your market that attempt to provide military-style lethality in civilian weaponry - and those closer involved know what they are - my suggestion is to ask why they should be on open sale..... just because you CAN doesn't mean you MUST. The taxation idea might impact the sale of new weapons (but I can already hear the squeals from the NRA) but the only way to make the possession of such weapons less popular is to change public opinion and to penalize their improper use.

However, for ANY change to happen, there needs to be a conversation about the way forward..... and that won't happen whilst those who want to kill any such move are allowed to sponsor politicians. Gun promoters should be treated like the cigarette companies......
Wait, I can buy a gun that bypasses scanners? Nope, I can't because there is no such thing. That's a misconception from watching too much Die Hard.

Also, the biggest problem isn't assault weapons. Why bother.
anotherlimey is offline  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 8:16 pm
  #2039  
Fair and balanced
 
kimilseung's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 13,705
kimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
I don't know where you got that from, so I can't begin to know where to begin to refute it.

It was apparently true in the second half of the 19th century, especially west of the Mississippi, but I don't think it is a defining characteristic of American society/ culture today.
American gun culture seems to break down in to two overlapping groups. Hunters and defence. It's the defense group I was referring to.
kimilseung is online now  
Old Jun 4th 2019, 8:41 pm
  #2040  
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 49,950
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
I doubt any of the Chicago shootings involved such weapons.

.
You are missing the culture point.

I said to start stepping it back that way, since we can't just disarm the population (much as that would be an otherwise sensible idea, it' s not possible). Nobody could create an argument that such weapons are "needed". One has to start somewhere, and that seems like a reasonable place.
Lion in Winter is offline  

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.