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To Vaccinate or Not..

To Vaccinate or Not..

Old Mar 28th 2019, 7:40 am
  #76  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

If your own child has been vaccinated, then what's the issue with them going to school with an un-vaccinated child ? Really don't get that one
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 8:12 am
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Default Re: What has p*ssed you off today...part II

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
From wikipedia:
"In 1980, 2.6 million people died of it, and in 1990, 545,000 died; by 2014, global vaccination programs had reduced the number of deaths from measles to 73,000. Rates of disease and deaths, however, increased in 2017 due to a decrease in immunization. The risk of death among those infected is about 0.2%"
I would like to see out of how many billion people this figure was taken.. They never 'do' put that statistic in when trying to push particular viewpoint.
It is wonderful that doctors have been able to reduce the death rate for killer diseases. That goes without saying. I still argue that measles is not a killer for the wider public .It remains very unpleasant and a virus to not take lightly. However I would like the medical world to be equally as vigilant in putting the numbers forward of those damaged for life by vaccines.They won't of course because they refuse to accept it happens. I also hate this creeping control that is spreading to 'make' people do things
We have had this discussion already on here .I wonder why it was brought up again ? Could it be the headlines in the papers ? We have seen how much damage a rabid press can do here in Portugal. Taking decisions that should be private into the public arena in a 'witch hunt' way.
I have a daughter who is on the front line with this and all I know is I would hate to be her right now .
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 8:29 am
  #78  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
If your own child has been vaccinated, then what's the issue with them going to school with an un-vaccinated child ? Really don't get that one
That's an easy one.

Vaccinations aren't 100% effective. You may have done the right thing and had your kid done but he night still be vulnerable. If there are deliberately unvaccinated kids at his school they might put him at risk.

The point here is that apart from the protection vaccination confers on the individual (provided it has worked) there is a secondary benefit called community immunity (sometimes called herd immunity). This works because if a sufficient percentage of individuals in a population have been vaccinated, then the virus cannot take hold. So the individuals who haven't been vaccinated for whatever reason (age, other illness, failure of the vax etc.) are protected by the fact that the population as a whole is protected.

This is compromised by deliberately unvaccinated individuals.
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 8:40 am
  #79  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Unless there is a very good, specific health reason to not vaccinate a child then all children should be vaccinated.
Originally Posted by Pollyana View Post
I wish a few other posters on here would take note of that line and stop condemning a minority out of hand. Vccinations can kill as much as the diseaes they are supposed to prevent
Vaccinating against parents wishes could easily kill a child - I know, I am a child that had to be given CPR after being vaccinated. Doctors need to listen to the parents and do as instructed, they are doctors, not gods.
Do you agree with Vitalstatistics here - that all kids should be vaccinated unless there is a specific reason why not?

Vaccinations simply do not kill as much as the diseases they (are supposed to) prevent though do they? Deaths from vaccinations are extremely rare.

Vaccinations against parents wishes are no more likely to kill a child any more than vaccinations with the parents consent.

Are you suggesting that parents know better than doctors whether their children are susceptible to being harmed by a virus? What criteria would a parent use to determine this?

Do you think that doctors "need to listen to the parents and do as instructed" in all cases or just in the vaccination issue? Why go to a doctor at all if you are simply going to tell him what to do?
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 12:00 pm
  #80  
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Default Re: What has p*ssed you off today...part II

Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
I would like to see out of how many billion people this figure was taken.. They never 'do' put that statistic in when trying to push particular viewpoint.
It is wonderful that doctors have been able to reduce the death rate for killer diseases. That goes without saying. I still argue that measles is not a killer for the wider public .It remains very unpleasant and a virus to not take lightly. However I would like the medical world to be equally as vigilant in putting the numbers forward of those damaged for life by vaccines.They won't of course because they refuse to accept it happens. I also hate this creeping control that is spreading to 'make' people do things
We have had this discussion already on here .I wonder why it was brought up again ? Could it be the headlines in the papers ? We have seen how much damage a rabid press can do here in Portugal. Taking decisions that should be private into the public arena in a 'witch hunt' way.
I have a daughter who is on the front line with this and all I know is I would hate to be her right now .
I brought it up, because it was in the headlines. See the first post. A community in New York has suffered an outbreak due to low uptake among a strict religious group - only 50-60% vaccinated children.

The numbers of dead and damaged people around the world from this preventable illness are absolute. It doesn't matter how many they are "out of". Have you ever been with a mother watching her child die of something that could have been prevented? I have. It's real.

The ONLY people who should not have vaccines are those with a legitmate, existing medical reason not to. Everyone else should get them. Want to complain about "big pharma"? Then ask them why they have not made all these life-saving and damage-preventing medicines available around the world at prices that all countries can afford.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47715169


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Old Mar 28th 2019, 12:13 pm
  #81  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

As a Psych, I'm no great defender of medics, believe me... however, whilst I certainly don't think they're infallible, I also don't believe they exist to "force" treatment onto a gullible public. Some medics do their profession no favours by adopting an "I know best" approach (even when they do...) but others bend over backwards to keep all the ducks in a row and the patient and family on board with decisions. BUT - it is their job to tell people what the research shows and to recommend the best course of action (though, it is also their job to take on board any patient/family concerns and work through them)

Yes, I am sure there are some cases of inappropriate vaccinations and/or malpractice - the question is, how many, what's the percentage?. Yes, I am sure that some people can have extreme reactions to vaccinations (individual variations and non-specifity rule!). Yes, I believe there can be a range of negative outcomes - some direct, some indirect. But I also believe that these are in the vast minority - and that any single incidence has to be taken alongside the fact that, for example, Measles vaccinations dramatically reduced deaths from that disease worldwide and, presumably, secondary impacts like deafness too.

So what can you say about those children who may die or be damaged due to the "voluntary" act of vaccination? Well, for me it's the same as I say about my friend who dropped dead on the Rugby field due to an undisclosed heart condition, or the fact I was injured out of the sport by a bad tackle. Should we ban Rugby - or should we just accept that the former was more coincidence than causation and the latter was just down to bad training and a risk you run ..... like crossing the road.

Individual cases are tragic - but the idea of retaining a reservoir of disease when it could be eradicated is far, far, worse.

Last edited by macliam; Mar 28th 2019 at 12:16 pm.
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 12:16 pm
  #82  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
As a Psych, I'm no great defender of medics, believe me... however, whilst I certainly don't think they're infallible, I also don't believe they exist to "force" treatment onto a gullible public. Some medics do their profession no favours by adopting an "I know best" approach (even when they do...) but others bend over backwards to keep all the ducks in a row and the patient and family on board with decisions. BUT - it is their job to tell people what the research shows and to recommend the best course of action (though, it is also their job to take on board any patient/family concerns and work through them)

Yes, I am sure there are some cases of inappropriate vaccinations and/or malpractice - the question is, how many, what's the percentage?. Yes, i am sure that some people can have extreme reactions to vaccinations (individual variations and non-specifity rule!). Yes, i believe there can be a range of negative outcomes - some direct, some indirect. But I also believe that these are in the vast minority - and that any single incidence has to be taken alongside the fact that, for example, Measles vaccinations dramatically reduced deaths from that disease worldwide and, presumably, secondary impacts like deafness too.

So what can you say about those children who may die or be damaged due to the "voluntary" act of vaccination? Well, for me it's the same as I say about my friend who dropped dead on the Rugby field due to an undisclosed heart condition, or the fact I was injured out of the sport by a bad tackle. Should we ban Rugby - or should we just accept that the former was more coincidence than causation and the latter was just down to bad training and a risk you run ..... like crossing the road.

Individual cases are tragic - but the idea of retaining a reservoir of disease when it could be eradicated is far, far, worse.
Indeed. Wait until the next big die-off starts, like the post WWI Spanish flu. Anti-vax people will be queueing up for the stuff the moment the threat becomes real to them and theirs.

Vaccines don't work because doctors say ithey do, they work because science says they do..

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Mar 28th 2019 at 12:19 pm. Reason: Petty gramar nazi
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 2:51 pm
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Default Re: What has p*ssed you off today...part II

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
The problem is no vaccine is 100% safe. Most would agree that it is OK to 'sacrifice a few for the sake of saving multi-millions'.

However think about the situation if a child has a severe reaction or dies when the parent was 'forced' to have the child vaccinated.
No, the problem is that social-media-obsessed parents don't understand the statistics of risk or the potential consequences of vaccine-preventable diseases.
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 3:42 pm
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

I have been able to make one small but (to me) hugely significant change-of-mind decision regarding ill-informed pro-preventable-disease parents who had chosen not to vaccinate their child. And yes, I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but it illustrates the worrying and fundamental lack of understanding about the entire concept of risk, vaccination, herd immunity, preventable disease, and so on in an otherwise reasonable well educated middle class family.

My daughter is immunocompromised. Amongst many other medical and surgical interventions following an accident a couple of years ago she underwent an emergency splenectomy. The spleen plays a significant role in the immune system, particularly in fending off bacterial diseases. We were already aware that a school friend had parents who had chosen not to vaccinate their child, and who had jumped through one or two administrative hoops to have their child allowed to continue to attend public school. We made a little bit of a fuss with the school, for example asking that the two of them were not put in the same class, nor travel together on field trips etc. We encouraged our daughter to discuss with this child and other friends why she was concerned, and why she would decline invitations to parties if this child was attending, and so on. The child in question put pressure on her parents to explain to her why she had not been immunized, in a way that she could explain to my daughter. They were apparently not only unable to do so, but realized that their position was unreasonable and irresponsible. Their children are now vaccinated.
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 3:50 pm
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
I have been able to make one small but (to me) hugely significant change-of-mind decision regarding ill-informed pro-preventable-disease parents who had chosen not to vaccinate their child. And yes, I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but it illustrates the worrying and fundamental lack of understanding about the entire concept of risk, vaccination, herd immunity, preventable disease, and so on in an otherwise reasonable well educated middle class family.

My daughter is immunocompromised. Amongst many other medical and surgical interventions following an accident a couple of years ago she underwent an emergency splenectomy. The spleen plays a significant role in the immune system, particularly in fending off bacterial diseases. We were already aware that a school friend had parents who had chosen not to vaccinate their child, and who had jumped through one or two administrative hoops to have their child allowed to continue to attend public school. We made a little bit of a fuss with the school, for example asking that the two of them were not put in the same class, nor travel together on field trips etc. We encouraged our daughter to discuss with this child and other friends why she was concerned, and why she would decline invitations to parties if this child was attending, and so on. The child in question put pressure on her parents to explain to her why she had not been immunized, in a way that she could explain to my daughter. They were apparently not only unable to do so, but realized that their position was unreasonable and irresponsible. Their children are now vaccinated.
Excellent.

Individuals speaking up does make a difference.

I hope your daughter is continuing to do well.
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 4:28 pm
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Excellent.

Individuals speaking up does make a difference.

I hope your daughter is continuing to do well.
The philosophy of utilitarianism is 'The greatest benefit for the Greatest Number.'
I agree that vaccination should be promoted and encouraged as much as is possible.


(However the fundamental law in the UK is that consent is needed for all medical interventions. (Court rulings, and those without 'capacity' aside). Also that parents are responsible for their children unless there is a court order.)
There is reluctance to change this because of the fear of the 'slippery' slope towards unethical human experimentation.
(USA has a history of this --in fact one hepatitis vaccine was produced in a totally unethical way).

Rather than forcing parents against their will to have children vaccinated it perhaps would be better to introduce a law against those that promote false information regarding dangers.

A publication of actual figures of diseases, deaths and long term problems that vaccinations can prevent and the numbers of deaths and bad reactions from vaccines so that parents do not suspect hidden dangers. Parents can be given a copy of these.
Also a study into WHY some religious groups are against it.



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Old Mar 28th 2019, 4:39 pm
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
The philosophy of utilitarianism is 'The greatest benefit for the Greatest Number.'
I agree that vaccination should be promoted and encouraged as much as is possible.


(However the fundamental law in the UK is that consent is needed for all medical interventions. (Court rulings, and those without 'capacity' aside). Also that parents are responsible for their children unless there is a court order.)
There is reluctance to change this because of the fear of the 'slippery' slope towards unethical human experimentation.
(USA has a history of this --in fact one hepatitis vaccine was produced in a totally unethical way).

Rather than forcing parents against their will to have children vaccinated it perhaps would be better to introduce a law against those that promote false information regarding dangers.

A publication of actual figures of diseases, deaths and long term problems that vaccinations can prevent and the numbers of deaths and bad reactions from vaccines so that parents do not suspect hidden dangers. Parents can be given a copy of these.
Also a study into WHY some religious groups are against it.
Trying to get my head around that, sort of sounds like that guy who insisted the world was not flat and suffered the consequences. Who decides?
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Old Mar 28th 2019, 5:21 pm
  #88  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
The philosophy of utilitarianism is 'The greatest benefit for the Greatest Number.'
I agree that vaccination should be promoted and encouraged as much as is possible.


(However the fundamental law in the UK is that consent is needed for all medical interventions. (Court rulings, and those without 'capacity' aside). Also that parents are responsible for their children unless there is a court order.)
There is reluctance to change this because of the fear of the 'slippery' slope towards unethical human experimentation.
(USA has a history of this --in fact one hepatitis vaccine was produced in a totally unethical way).

Rather than forcing parents against their will to have children vaccinated it perhaps would be better to introduce a law against those that promote false information regarding dangers.

A publication of actual figures of diseases, deaths and long term problems that vaccinations can prevent and the numbers of deaths and bad reactions from vaccines so that parents do not suspect hidden dangers. Parents can be given a copy of these.
Also a study into WHY some religious groups are against it.
The problem with this is that many people simply refuse to believe what they don't want to and just don't have the capacity or willingness to understand. Just look at how many people still believe in nonsensical pseudo medicine like homeopathy or reiki.

You can give people all the facts you like but if they don't want to believe something they just won't. That's fine for an adult - they can make their own decisions about their health but it's not OK for them to make these same uninformed decisions on behalf of their children. Parents don't always know best. If they did we wouldn't need doctors.

Actually it's not OK for adults either - I have a family member right now who is dying of uninformed ignorance and bloody mindedness.

FFS - Cannabis Oil DOES NOT cure cancer.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 7:34 am
  #89  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
That's an easy one.

Vaccinations aren't 100% effective. You may have done the right thing and had your kid done but he night still be vulnerable. If there are deliberately unvaccinated kids at his school they might put him at risk.

The point here is that apart from the protection vaccination confers on the individual (provided it has worked) there is a secondary benefit called community immunity (sometimes called herd immunity). This works because if a sufficient percentage of individuals in a population have been vaccinated, then the virus cannot take hold. So the individuals who haven't been vaccinated for whatever reason (age, other illness, failure of the vax etc.) are protected by the fact that the population as a whole is protected.

This is compromised by deliberately unvaccinated individuals.
Cheers, makes perfect sense to me.
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Old Mar 29th 2019, 9:11 am
  #90  
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Default Re: To Vaccinate or Not..

I'm going to be very careful what i say here to avoid breaking the site rules. But I'm sitting looking at my terminally ill father, 90% of his current health issues are caused by the polio he had as a child . Ironically the cancer that is killing him is not actually causing him any pain.
The polio still is 70+ years later

It is nothing short of obscene that as a society we are willing to casually discard decades of medical advancement that people in developing countries would sacrifice all to get their children protected
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