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Tories in chaos

Tories in chaos

Old Aug 1st 2020, 6:47 pm
  #9946  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
However in answer ot another post that suggested Foreign=bad, this is just another attempt to introduce fake arguments. I've repeatedly suggested why I think the UK is saying bye bye to the EU and it's to do with democracy, something the EU wasn't constructed to accomodate.
What of an unelected second chamber is democratic, pray tell.....

I suggest you might need to check how the UK is governed.... because democracy only fits where it touches.
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Old Aug 1st 2020, 7:07 pm
  #9947  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
What of an unelected second chamber is democratic, pray tell.....

I suggest you might need to check how the UK is governed.... because democracy only fits where it touches.
The HoL can amend bills passed by the HoC https://www.politics.co.uk/reference...ation-of-lords

While I agree there are too many in the HoL, the HoL does have an important part in keeping the HoC in check.
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Old Aug 1st 2020, 7:19 pm
  #9948  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post


But then again, there are computer wizzards, computer experts, computer workers, then a long time nothing and then me ......
I'm with you, in the last part.
Not sure how you tried to reduce it but the tip I read involves going through the insert process and then before posting, click the image and then the Source button. That shows up some text stuff which contains the size eg 1273x872. I generally halve each one unless it's a square and you can just make it a smaller square. Occasionally you might get something easy like 1500x900 to be turned into 500x300.
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Old Aug 1st 2020, 7:21 pm
  #9949  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Now now, calm down.
This mumbo jumbo doesn't do you justice. Your arguments used to be simply irrational but now you've descended into gibberish.
I'm really concerned that all that Majorcan heat isn't good for your blood pressure.
Suggest you stay inside with a cold drink.
However in answer ot another post that suggested Foreign=bad, this is just another attempt to introduce fake arguments. I've repeatedly suggested why I think the UK is saying bye bye to the EU and it's to do with democracy, something the EU wasn't constructed to accomodate.
Yes, well, it was sarcasm. You seem to think the UK has an exclusive on "democracy", and that the EU (and probably anybody else) is something less than that, and therefore inferior (therefore elevating you to superior). But you're ignoring the similarities, and other areas where the UK is actually demonstrably inferior. And some of the key foundations of your arguments are widely known falsehoods.

What you may not realise is that it's a textbook exhibition of the common British exceptionalism stereotype. It's unwitting. You don't even realise it within your exceptionalist bubble. But outside observers see it rather clearly. And there's a hell of a lot more of them than there are of you.

Last edited by amideislas; Aug 1st 2020 at 7:37 pm.
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Old Aug 1st 2020, 7:46 pm
  #9950  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
The HoL can amend bills passed by the HoC https://www.politics.co.uk/reference...ation-of-lords

While I agree there are too many in the HoL, the HoL does have an important part in keeping the HoC in check.
The system India inherited from the British has been changed to be more democratic. The upper house members (a maximum number) are elected by the State assemblies and have a maximum of six years there. However 'bills' can still go back and forth taking a long time to be passed, delaying the Government some never get passed!
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Old Aug 1st 2020, 7:54 pm
  #9951  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
The system India inherited from the British has been changed to be more democratic. The upper house members (a maximum number) are elected by the State assemblies and have a maximum of six years there. However 'bills' can still go back and forth taking a long time to be passed, delaying the Government some never get passed!
I'm not disagreeing that the HoL needs reform. I have zero confidence that the Tories would reform the HoL in any way that gave the devolved countries and regions of the UK a meaningful say, or reforms that benefitted anyone but the Tories.....

Not for nothing have they been called the self-servatives....
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Old Aug 1st 2020, 8:20 pm
  #9952  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Without doubt, the HoL is an anachronism and the limited (though fundamental) reforms carried out by the Blair administration have not helped. The idea that a PM can nominate his little brother for a lifetime position in Government is hard to see as anything short of nepotism - and the ability of a PM to nominate supporters without oversight is clearly open to political, if not actual, corruption. Equally, the presence, by right, of clergy from a church which no longer represents the majority of the population seems outdated.

I forgot to mention that some modern democracies, like Portugal, have no second chamber - however this places greater responsibility on, or gives power to, the head of state to assume a far more political stance than in the UK (or Ireland), so is probably inappropriate. I am entirely in favour of a second chamber to revise proposed legislation, even within the strict limits imposed in the Irish system, but the numbers envisaged for the HoL seem disproportionate to the work conducted - when France has less than 350 Senators in a chamber with legislative powers.

Limiting the term of membership (and the number of terms which can be served) would help, however it is vital that the "independence" of any second chamber from the Government of the day and a disconnect from the political term are retained. It does seem to me that if 73 MEPs were thought enough to represent the country in the EU, the number necessary in an active and managed second chamber needs to be similar. Equally, such a setup would allow for the use of a more representative electoral system to be run at a disconnect from the General Election, with candidates selected from non-politicians with real-world experience and, possibly, specific representation by minorities.
Yes, that makes sense. Certainly a mockery that Jo Johnson gets made a Lord, not that I dislike him, but it's blatant nepotism. And totally be agree on not having any religious representation.
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Old Aug 1st 2020, 10:19 pm
  #9953  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
Yes, well, it was sarcasm. You seem to think the UK has an exclusive on "democracy", and that the EU (and probably anybody else) is something less than that, and therefore inferior (therefore elevating you to superior). But you're ignoring the similarities, and other areas where the UK is actually demonstrably inferior. And some of the key foundations of your arguments are widely known falsehoods.

What you may not realise is that it's a textbook exhibition of the common British exceptionalism stereotype. It's unwitting. You don't even realise it within your exceptionalist bubble. But outside observers see it rather clearly. And there's a hell of a lot more of them than there are of you.
You can leave the ''outside'' bit out of your last sentence.
Observers see it rather clearly ...... If one is bothered to look.
One should really have a search and look at what Johnson (read Cummings) is all changing, but I assume to the believers I'm talking ''the country down''.
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Old Aug 1st 2020, 11:33 pm
  #9954  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
Yes, well, it was sarcasm. You seem to think the UK has an exclusive on "democracy", and that the EU (and probably anybody else) is something less than that, and therefore inferior (therefore elevating you to superior). But you're ignoring the similarities, and other areas where the UK is actually demonstrably inferior. And some of the key foundations of your arguments are widely known falsehoods.
What you may not realise is that it's a textbook exhibition of the common British exceptionalism stereotype. It's unwitting. You don't even realise it within your exceptionalist bubble. But outside observers see it rather clearly. And there's a hell of a lot more of them than there are of you.
You see, there you go again.
I see that the temperature where you are hit 31C today, not good for the brain cells is it at your age?
But to address your baseless assertions. I do not make, or have ever made, claims that the UK is superior. On the contrary it is you who claim otherwise.
Neither have I ever claimed that the UK is exceptional, it is you who claim otherwise.
What I do claim, and one claim you seem reluctant to address, is the corrupt, anti democratic, fossilised monolith that calls itself the EU.
For example I give you the recent 'discussions' concerning the EU Covid bailout fund. Did EU citizens get to vote on it? No, what we got was the usual lash up, concocted between politicians licking each others backsides, based on mollifying those threatening to veto the deal altogether. Far from being democratic, it's a system designed to ensure that the most obstinate member gets the most out of it and the browbeaten sheep, bribed with some worthless goodies, get to follow on behind.
Baaa Baaa Baaa

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Old Aug 2nd 2020, 12:06 am
  #9955  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
The HoL can amend bills passed by the HoC https://www.politics.co.uk/reference...ation-of-lords

While I agree there are too many in the HoL, the HoL does have an important part in keeping the HoC in check.
Yes, I know that, I understand how it works both here and in Ireland - but the HoL is in no way democratic or representative, even if it is not a legislative chamber.

Like India, by the sound of it, Ireland has limited the term of a senate and of senators and changed they are appointed, but unlike India it has also imposed strict limits on the time a bill can be delayed... in most cases 90 days, after which it can be assumed to have been approved (In practice, this has only happened twice since 1937). Even then, the Seanad is not considered democratic and there have been numerous calls for reform.
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Old Aug 2nd 2020, 12:12 am
  #9956  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
For example I give you the recent 'discussions' concerning the EU Covid bailout fund. Did EU citizens get to vote on it? No, what we got was the usual lash up, concocted between politicians licking each others backsides, based on mollifying those threatening to veto the deal altogether.
I missed voting on the UK government's furlough package. When was it?

EU citizens get to vote when proposed legislation will lead to a treaty change. Other than that, EU citizens can make their views known about proposed legislation by contacting their MEP.
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Old Aug 2nd 2020, 12:15 am
  #9957  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
....For example I give you the recent 'discussions' concerning the EU Covid bailout fund. Did EU citizens get to vote on it? No, what we got was the usual lash up, concocted between politicians licking each others backsides, based on mollifying those threatening to veto the deal altogether. Far from being democratic, it's a system designed to ensure that the most obstinate member gets the most out of it and the browbeaten sheep, bribed with some worthless goodies, get to follow on behind.
Baaa Baaa Baaa
Again, you criticise the EU for mirroring the procedure of the UK...... how many votes have been called to pass UK legislation relating to the pandemic? How democratic is a whipped vote to deny parliamentary protection of the NHS in trade talks? At least what happened in the EU was an open discussion, which is why you know about it, whereas a whipped vote is tantamount to government by edict.
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Old Aug 2nd 2020, 3:28 am
  #9958  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

This is why I so often end up resorting to sarcasm. You can't reason with this type. No amount of reality will change their misguided views ... suspiciously parroting english tabloid drivel, reassuring themselves that the outside world is still inferior.

Oh, and 31? Where did you get that number? Do you think that's hot or something? Do you have any clue about anything?

The apparent unconsciousness makes it twice as effectual

Last edited by amideislas; Aug 2nd 2020 at 3:51 am.
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Old Aug 2nd 2020, 5:38 am
  #9959  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Anyway, the parade of irony just keeps coming.

Johnson Rewards His Brexit & Russian Peers
You will remember that a key reason we left the EU was because of all those unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

That message was hammered home by then UKIP Leader Nigel Farage and a host of other leading Brexiters for years in the run up to the 2016 EU Referendum. It could not have been clearer: the European Union was undemocratic, run by ‘unelected bureaucrats and politicians’ and we needed to “take back control”.

Well, that’s happened. And now the war is over, the peerages are being handed out for delivering the victory.

Yes, that’s right fellow citizens – the Brexit elite are about to become unelected barons to our unelected feudal upper house and pass laws and claim all those juicy taxpayer-funded perks for getting us out of the EU.

Last edited by amideislas; Aug 2nd 2020 at 5:54 am.
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Old Aug 2nd 2020, 6:23 am
  #9960  
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