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Tories in chaos

Tories in chaos

Old Jun 17th 2019, 3:10 pm
  #2311  
 
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I don't know what would be suggested for the UK - as I pointed out earlier, the use of assemblies seems unlikely to work without other, more fundamental changes. However, your concern about "expertise" is unfounded - firstly parliament would agree and legislate the need for a referendum, then the assembly members would hear testimony from interested parties and form their opinion and vote on it...... so, in a way, it is just a pre-filter to round off the corners of a requirement which will then be voted on by the voting public.... I doubt very much that any idea that only gained a 52/48 split would ever get to that stage. Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...mbly_(Ireland)

Which makes the idea sound way better than I first thought, as long as those other fundamental changes take place. Which is probably impossible for the brexit timeline, but maybe long term it is possible and desirable.
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 3:25 pm
  #2312  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
I appreciate that the jury returns a verdict and the judge sets the sentence, but doesn't murder carry a mandatory life sentence in the UK?

The judge sets the sentence, but only in consideration of the nature of the particular crime. Whether his expert view is that the jury made a mistake isn't (by my layman's understanding) a factor in sentencing.

At any rate, this is splitting hairs. My point is that life-changing decisions affecting individuals are made by people who may be technically wholly unqualified to make them.
The judge will set a life sentence with a minimum term before consideration of parole. Life, unfortunately doesn't mean life. The longer option is to be 'detained at Her majesty's Pleasure'.

Life-changing decisions have always been made by people not qualified enough to make them, such as NHS accountants refusing life-saving treatment for rare illnesses on 'cost concerns', Ministers who keep cutting support to the most vulnerable in the name of 'austerity', and people who vote in Referendums.

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I don't know what would be suggested for the UK - as I pointed out earlier, the use of assemblies seems unlikely to work without other, more fundamental changes. However, your concern about "expertise" is unfounded - firstly parliament would agree and legislate the need for a referendum, then the assembly members would hear testimony from interested parties and form their opinion and vote on it...... so, in a way, it is just a pre-filter to round off the corners of a requirement which will then be voted on by the voting public.... I doubt very much that any idea that only gained a 52/48 split would ever get to that stage. Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citize...mbly_(Ireland)
It won't work in the UK because the Tories would never allow the public to have any meaningful say.

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Which makes the idea sound way better than I first thought, as long as those other fundamental changes take place. Which is probably impossible for the brexit timeline, but maybe long term it is possible and desirable.
Not while the Tories are in office, and even after that, I think they'd obstruct it every step of the way.

I think Stewart's only suggesting it to get votes.
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 4:30 pm
  #2313  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
1. Who sets the criteria for panel membership? The Electoral Commission, Parliament, Similar to Jury selection? How many members?
2. What criteria excludes people from becoming members of the panel? Political party / union membership, subject expertise, Living in Remain/Leave supporting areas?
3. Will the panel have full access to all of the subject matter and experts, or do they base their decision only on the information in the public domain?
4. Will the panel's decision (and deliberations) be advisory or binding?


Jury selection isn't completely random. There are age criteria and geographical restrictions. I doubt many get a Jury summons outside of the area for which their registered on the Electoral Register. If there's a way to influence either the composition of the panel or it's decision, the Referendum showed that some are willing to do that.
Once upon a time I had some fantastic notion of being involved with the press complaints commission - I think that's what it was called way back when.
I found out the details of its members and their 'qualifications' and experience. There wasn't a hope in hell for an ordinary bod.
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 4:52 pm
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Watchpost View Post
At any rate, this is splitting hairs. My point is that life-changing decisions affecting individuals are made by people who may be technically wholly unqualified to make them.
With the rather important difference that they have heard and considered all the evidence and discussed the matter with others who have also heard all the evidence, rather than just acted upon pre-conceived notions developed in heaven knows what manner.

Of course, a member of the jury is free to disregard the evidence just as any voter can in an election or referendum. But if they are going to vote guilty/not guilty according to race, colour, class bias or whatever discriminatory factor that flies in the face of all the evidence isn't there some action on the part of the other jurors that might lead juror misconduct?

Of course, such biases may actually result in someone not being selected for a particular trial so in the context of this particular discussion the 'unqualified' or biased may be excluded and not have undue influence on the proceedings.
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 6:22 pm
  #2315  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Once upon a time I had some fantastic notion of being involved with the press complaints commission - I think that's what it was called way back when.
I found out the details of its members and their 'qualifications' and experience. There wasn't a hope in hell for an ordinary bod.
Compared to those who ran the British Bankers Association (since 2017 UK Finance), the PCC are probably, imo, models of sobriety and ethical integrity
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 9:29 pm
  #2316  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Is this a permanent panel or one that regularly changes?



If it's a permanent panel, then in time they may get 'mandated' to advance certain ideas or even seduced by those in power to sway the rest of the panel. In short, they may actually start behaving like....MPs.

If it's an ever changing panel, so everyone gets a chance, where's the continuity? Not to mention expertise.
It would be a bit like a football club with a particular recruitment/transfer policy and style of play through its teams but then they change the technical director to someone who favours something else and everything so far is disrupted before it gets a chance to gel and then because it doesn't immediately work there's a personnel change that results in another different direction and that, too, is changed because there's no immediate success and so on...
Continuity and expertise ? House of commons would provide that surely. It's nothing like a football team, they wouldn't be there to gel and concoct a game plan, they'd be there to bring their individual experiences and perspective to the table.
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 9:36 pm
  #2317  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Tom, Dick and Harry are going to sort out Brexit ?

I think this is a far too loaded subject for a citizens panel.
Imagine if they decide no Brexit .... or no deal ..... or Maybot's deal .... The outcry will be enormous.
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 9:39 pm
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Continuity and expertise ? House of commons would provide that surely. It's nothing like a football team, they wouldn't be there to gel and concoct a game plan, they'd be there to bring their individual experiences and perspective to the table.
Please don't put expertise and House of commons so close to each other. Even continuity is doubtful nowadays. Thanks.
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 9:41 pm
  #2319  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by Annetje View Post
Tom, Dick and Harry are going to sort out Brexit ?

I think this is a far too loaded subject for a citizens panel.
Imagine if they decide no Brexit .... or no deal ..... or Maybot's deal .... The outcry will be enormous.
Couldn't start it with a specific issue to sort out, but government of the people by the people for the people is eminently something honorable to strive for I reckon. Time for a change
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 9:44 pm
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Couldn't start it with a specific issue to sort out, but government of the people by the people for the people is eminently something honorable to strive for I reckon. Time for a change
Change ... Yes.
But now, whilst the whole futur of the UK (at the moment) is at stake ?
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 10:51 pm
  #2321  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Couldn't start it with a specific issue to sort out, but government of the people by the people for the people is eminently something honorable to strive for I reckon. Time for a change
I'd suggest a written constitution would be a good start...... but it's nothing quick - as I posted before, the Irish constitution was ratified in 1937.... independence in 1922, do the maths. Another problem is that constitutions actually place limits on politicians.... so don't look for many volunteers there!
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Old Jun 17th 2019, 11:36 pm
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
I'd suggest a written constitution would be a good start...... but it's nothing quick - as I posted before, the Irish constitution was ratified in 1937.... independence in 1922, do the maths. Another problem is that constitutions actually place limits on politicians.... so don't look for many volunteers there!
Sadly the only real change is going to come in the form of an uprising. People would have to be ok with things getting worse before they got better, which by and large they're not.
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Old Jun 18th 2019, 1:25 am
  #2323  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Couldn't start it with a specific issue to sort out, but government of the people by the people for the people is eminently something honorable to strive for I reckon. Time for a change
Have you suggested that to any Aussie politicians? They love foreigners telling them what to so much that dual citizenship disqualifies those with citizenship of other countries from standing as candidates in Federal elections.

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Sadly the only real change is going to come in the form of an uprising. People would have to be ok with things getting worse before they got better, which by and large they're not.
Suggest an uprising in the country you live in, and let us know how it goes. It certainly wouldn't get very far in the UK in the 21st century.
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Old Jun 18th 2019, 4:48 am
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Is Boris Johnson afraid to stand up for his ideas at debate? It would appear so!
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Old Jun 18th 2019, 6:00 am
  #2325  
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Default Re: Tories in chaos

Originally Posted by stevenglish1 View Post
Sadly the only real change is going to come in the form of an uprising. People would have to be ok with things getting worse before they got better, which by and large they're not.
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Have you suggested that to any Aussie politicians? They love foreigners telling them what to so much that dual citizenship disqualifies those with citizenship of other countries from standing as candidates in Federal elections.
Suggest an uprising in the country you live in, and let us know how it goes. It certainly wouldn't get very far in the UK in the 21st century.
Digi-serfs with pitchforks, rush torches & staves... probably not (but don't ignore the more right-wing UK officer-corps, who've been treated like garbage over the years).
No, it's more likely to be what happens whenever the money runs out, the services don't appear, and changed conditions exist because the centre's withdrawn or collapsed..... People just desert on a wholesale basis to start again. Some succeed but mostly they don't. Survival of the lean and fittest.
Post Rome, the dark ages, the black-death era, post English civil war; - it's all there, but just needs a modern context. The one thing we all see is that the UK centre has truly collapsed and consensus is dead.
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