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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

Boiler Aug 3rd 2020 5:32 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12891418)
Yes especially because Begum‘s victims are still in Syria. I think the people that suffered war, genocide, slavery and systematic rape because of her and her fellow ISIS member should feel the wrath of their victims. Also how can justice be served if all the perpetrators leave and all witnesses are still in Syria?

Excellent points.

kimilseung Aug 3rd 2020 5:59 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12891418)
Yes especially because Begum‘s victims are still in Syria. I think the people that suffered war, genocide, slavery and systematic rape because of her and her fellow ISIS member should feel the wrath of their victims. Also how can justice be served if all the perpetrators leave and all witnesses are still in Syria?

Isn't she in a camp controlled by those she was fighting? It seems they either dont want or for whatever reason cant prosecute her. Justice from your point of view therefore would seem to be impossible if she stays where she is.

Watchpost Aug 3rd 2020 6:17 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12891235)
It’s possible to legally strip people of their citizenship. An administrator decided based on what he interpreted to be a correct application of that law. Begum doesn’t agree and she is fighting that decision in court. To fight a decision you don’t have to be present. I still don’t see due process being denied to her.

Sadly Assanah is right. The Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act doesn't state that an individual cannot be stripped of their British citizenship if it would make them stateless; only that the Home Secretary must be satisfied that it would not make them stateless. A suitable legal advisor with a highly hypothetical hypothesis about some citizenship that someone might hypothetically have a hypothetical claim to, and the Home Secretary is satisfied.

Similarly, there is no need for any crime to have been committed, or for evidence to be presented that a crime is likely to be committed; it is sufficient for the Home Secretary to be satisfied that the individual concerned has done something prejudicial to the UK's vital interests.

It confirms the view already expressed by others here that there is no such thing as British citizenship. Britons are not citizens but subjects, their citizenship something they enjoy at the Home Secretary's pleasure.

Assanah Aug 3rd 2020 6:18 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by kimilseung (Post 12891428)
Isn't she in a camp controlled by those she was fighting? It seems they either dont want or for whatever reason cant prosecute her. Justice from your point of view therefore would seem to be impossible if she stays where she is.

There is more justice to leave her in the camps than bring her back to the UK. Is it only me whose stomach turns if thinking that women like her go back to save England while the victims (and witnesses) have to stay in the camps? Why is there no outcry to bring those victims to the UK away from the camps? Why defend a woman who got so wet between her legs when she watched the beheading of Westerners that she moved to Syria to provide those ISIS murders with a home to relax from fighting and murdering?

BTW the Kurds announced in February that they will prosecute foreign ISIS members. Why not hand her over to them? Or set up international tribunals so that the people there can watch the proceedings and hopefully get some feeling of justice and retribution.

Bipat Aug 3rd 2020 10:16 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12891432)
There is more justice to leave her in the camps than bring her back to the UK. Is it only me whose stomach turns if thinking that women like her go back to save England while the victims (and witnesses) have to stay in the camps? Why is there no outcry to bring those victims to the UK away from the camps? Why defend a woman who got so wet between her legs when she watched the beheading of Westerners that she moved to Syria to provide those ISIS murders with a home to relax from fighting and murdering?

BTW the Kurds announced in February that they will prosecute foreign ISIS members. Why not hand her over to them? Or set up international tribunals so that the people there can watch the proceedings and hopefully get some feeling of justice and retribution.

She was 15 years old when she left the UK.
The same age as those described as 'victims' of 'child' molestation and paedophilia on another thread regarding a British Royal.
Is a 15 year old capable of making a sensible decision if she is groomed?
I agree that now she will probably always be a danger in the UK.

Nutek Aug 3rd 2020 10:33 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
So, droning her isn't acceptable to most then.

Just asking for a friend.

DaveLovesDee Aug 3rd 2020 10:41 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Nutek (Post 12891489)
So, droning her isn't acceptable to most then.

Just asking for a friend.

UAV-ing a laugh :p ......

macliam Aug 3rd 2020 11:58 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
The hypocrisy shown in some arguments is stunning. Whether or not Begum was groomed, whether or not she was a minor when she arrived in Syria and whether or not she actually committed any crime for which she could be prosecuted in any jurisdiction (apart from those I previously suggested), she seems to be the target for self-righteous anger and an impotent desire for vengeance against those in daesh who actually committed the horrors. Her "crime" appears to be that she is a focus for such rage.

I wonder if the same people believe that all Serb women deserved similar treatment for the horrors in Bosnia, or support the continued prosecution of British troops for illegal actions (obviously, those in America are safe since their government explicitly denies the foreign prosection of its own citizens for such crimes ....) How many have supported the gagging of criticism of actions by the Israeli state, or supported the prosecution of those responsible for illegal actions in Vietnam, or Malaya or Kenya? Notably, the decision to remove Begum's nationality by birth was also taken by a member of the same government that justifies the sale of arms to the Saudi regime, which is currently killing innocents in Yemen and stands accused of the murder of opponents in foreign states.

Those claiming concern at the costs and threats to security of actually following the normal legal treatment in Begum's case, are presumably unaware of the hundreds of daesh fighters (not supporters, but actual fighters) who have already returned to the UK since the demise of the self-proclaimed caliphate, or accept the fact that few of them have been prosecuted on their return .... so it's odd that there is so much hate shown to one for whom the Government thought it had found a dubious method to punish without trial.

As usual, those with power who support, or order, or commit, war crimes get away with it, whilst the natural call for vengeance is directed on a few scapegoats - helpfully publicised by the media.

Nutek Aug 3rd 2020 12:21 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12891490)
UAV-ing a laugh :p ......

The Nutopian Drone Army is no joke. You could end up on the List. ;)

Red Eric Aug 3rd 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Watchpost (Post 12891431)
Sadly Assanah is right. The Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act doesn't state that an individual cannot be stripped of their British citizenship if it would make them stateless; only that the Home Secretary must be satisfied that it would not make them stateless. A suitable legal advisor with a highly hypothetical hypothesis about some citizenship that someone might hypothetically have a hypothetical claim to, and the Home Secretary is satisfied.

Similarly, there is no need for any crime to have been committed, or for evidence to be presented that a crime is likely to be committed; it is sufficient for the Home Secretary to be satisfied that the individual concerned has done something prejudicial to the UK's vital interests.

It confirms the view already expressed by others here that there is no such thing as British citizenship. Britons are not citizens but subjects, their citizenship something they enjoy at the Home Secretary's pleasure.

I think that was 007Steve, who coincidentally suffered the ignominious fate of being summarily relieved of his BE membership - a process which also comes without trial or right of appeal.

Lion in Winter Aug 3rd 2020 12:50 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Watchpost (Post 12891431)
Sadly Assanah is right. The Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act doesn't state that an individual cannot be stripped of their British citizenship if it would make them stateless; only that the Home Secretary must be satisfied that it would not make them stateless. A suitable legal advisor with a highly hypothetical hypothesis about some citizenship that someone might hypothetically have a hypothetical claim to, and the Home Secretary is satisfied.

Similarly, there is no need for any crime to have been committed, or for evidence to be presented that a crime is likely to be committed; it is sufficient for the Home Secretary to be satisfied that the individual concerned has done something prejudicial to the UK's vital interests.

It confirms the view already expressed by others here that there is no such thing as British citizenship. Britons are not citizens but subjects, their citizenship something they enjoy at the Home Secretary's pleasure.


Then this is exactly what I mean by being outside the rule of law, if "law" means "the opinion of an individual".

Lion in Winter Aug 3rd 2020 12:57 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12891432)
There is more justice to leave her in the camps than bring her back to the UK. Is it only me whose stomach turns if thinking that women like her go back to save England while the victims (and witnesses) have to stay in the camps? Why is there no outcry to bring those victims to the UK away from the camps? Why defend a woman who got so wet between her legs when she watched the beheading of Westerners that she moved to Syria to provide those ISIS murders with a home to relax from fighting and murdering?

BTW the Kurds announced in February that they will prosecute foreign ISIS members. Why not hand her over to them? Or set up international tribunals so that the people there can watch the proceedings and hopefully get some feeling of justice and retribution.

Understand the difference between defending an individual and defending the rule of law rather than executive power.

Why are people within the UK not simply thrown out on the street when they are suspected of crimes? Why, for example, should someone who beats their spouse or who steals or who sexually abuses minors not have their citizenship removed by the government?

BritInParis Oct 12th 2020 12:23 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
UK Supreme Court to consider Shamima Begum appeal next month


The UK Supreme Court will consider next month whether Shamima Begum should be allowed to enter the UK to take part in her appeal over the decision to deprive her of her British citizenship.

The appeal will be heard by Lord Reed, Lord Hodge, Lord Black, Lord Lloyd-Jones and Lord Sales over two days from 23-24 November 2020.

Assanah Oct 12th 2020 8:46 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12891563)
Understand the difference between defending an individual and defending the rule of law rather than executive power.

Why are people within the UK not simply thrown out on the street when they are suspected of crimes? Why, for example, should someone who beats their spouse or who steals or who sexually abuses minors not have their citizenship removed by the government?

Nobody is simply thrown out on the Street. What so difficult to understand that there are laws that allow removal of citizenship. There are also laws that allow the removal of abusive spouses from the home. All these decisions can be doubled checked by the courts and if there is a violation of the law these decisions can be overthrown. That’s the rule of law. As far as I see Begum is treated accordingly.

paulry Oct 12th 2020 8:54 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
She looks likely be back in the UK for Christmas.


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