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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

Shard Jul 18th 2020 1:58 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12883488)
So the girls groomed in places like Rochdale to be rape victims deserve support, but one who was groomed to travel to Syria in the same way and at a similiar age?

As for her returning to the UK, she was a UK national only, and has the right to face her accuser (the Home Office, who want to remove her citizenship) in a court of law IN THE UK. If she's arrested on arrival, so be it, but then it'll be a UK court trying a UK national under UK law.

Not the same kind of "grooming". The Rochdale girls were very vulnerable, these girls were bright, but brainwashed by their warped religion.

paulry Jul 18th 2020 2:01 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by el collado kid (Post 12883015)
Yeah thank **** for that P.S who is it:eek:

Bipat's chatter mate :typing::typing:

macliam Jul 18th 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12883490)
If she had truly been groomed then I doubt her citizenship would have been revoked in the first place. This country and most others take a very dim view on acts of treason.

How dare the Appeal Court come to a decision that foils Sajid Javid's cunning plan?!! One of the highest courts in the land has decided that actions taken are in conflict with UK law. I am more concerned at people criticising that verdict than the actual case in hand - and at the apparent refusal of HM Government to abide by their decision... or to delay the actions mandated in that verdict and/or make prevent them. At a time when the level of oversight of government actions is at an all-time low, any attempt to limit the power of the judiciary is another blow to democracy.

I would remind you that, last time I looked, presumption of innocence was still the basis of UK law - and the woman not been charged with treason (because it is not appropriate), nor charged, nor tried, for anything she either did or may have done - let alone found guilty. The only thing "known" for certain is that she travelled to Syria with the intent to live in the IS "caliphate" - and that she did this whilst under the legal age of consent. I do not condone her actions - it is absolutely correct for her to be held to account for them and to pay any penalty under the law - but neither do I condone the decision by the Home Office (that bastion of civil liberties) to exile her without trial - and effectively to deny her the ability to appeal that decision. This form of punishment was not even meted out to proven war criminals. It seems to have been an attempt to avoid responsibility by the UK government and I am sure that some are frustrated that the "clever" delaying tactics they have used, and are still using, have not resulted in the "problem" being solved through her demise whilst held as a stateless person in a camp. Out of sight, out of mind.

Her UK citizenship through birth was removed once she had been made a scapegoat for understandable public fear and loathing of IS. However, since she did not have Bangladeshi citizenship at the time and Bangladesh has refused to afford it to her, she was made stateless - regardless of the UK government's assumptions. I am sure to those who decided to remove her citizenship, it seemed a clever win-win - dump the problem on someone else and deny all responsibility. The attempt to prevent any practical right to appeal by ensuring she remained in a Syrian camp was the icing on the cake - job done. Now, political expediency has again been shown to be contrary to UK law - and I am sure that immense pressure will be brought to bear on the legal system to overturn the appeal court's decision, but I hope that it still retains sufficient independence to resist. Unfortunately, the timescales involved allow another roll of the dice to those who hope the issue will be resolved by actions in Syria.

Bipat Jul 18th 2020 3:03 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12883559)
How dare the Appeal Court come to a decision that foils Sajid Javid's cunning plan?!! One of the highest courts in the land has decided that actions taken are in conflict with UK law. I am more concerned at people criticising that verdict than the actual case in hand - and at the apparent refusal of HM Government to abide by their decision... or to delay the actions mandated in that verdict and/or make prevent them. At a time when the level of oversight of government actions is at an all-time low, any attempt to limit the power of the judiciary is another blow to democracy.

I would remind you that, last time I looked, presumption of innocence was still the basis of UK law - and the woman not been charged with treason (because it is not appropriate), nor charged, nor tried, for anything she either did or may have done - let alone found guilty. The only thing "known" for certain is that she travelled to Syria with the intent to live in the IS "caliphate" - and that she did this whilst under the legal age of consent. I do not condone her actions - it is absolutely correct for her to be held to account for them and to pay any penalty under the law - but neither do I condone the decision by the Home Office (that bastion of civil liberties) to exile her without trial - and effectively to deny her the ability to appeal that decision. This form of punishment was not even meted out to proven war criminals. It seems to have been an attempt to avoid responsibility by the UK government and I am sure that some are frustrated that the "clever" delaying tactics they have used, and are still using, have not resulted in the "problem" being solved through her demise whilst held as a stateless person in a camp. Out of sight, out of mind.

Her UK citizenship through birth was removed once she had been made a scapegoat for understandable public fear and loathing of IS. However, since she did not have Bangladeshi citizenship at the time and Bangladesh has refused to afford it to her, she was made stateless - regardless of the UK government's assumptions. I am sure to those who decided to remove her citizenship, it seemed a clever win-win - dump the problem on someone else and deny all responsibility. The attempt to prevent any practical right to appeal by ensuring she remained in a Syrian camp was the icing on the cake - job done. Now, political expediency has again been shown to be contrary to UK law - and I am sure that immense pressure will be brought to bear on the legal system to overturn the appeal court's decision, but I hope that it still retains sufficient independence to resist. Unfortunately, the timescales involved allow another roll of the dice to those who hope the issue will be resolved by actions in Syria.

Yes-- that is the point. She was made Stateless---Against international law. I thought it wrong at the time.
I believe she was 15 years old so of the age of criminal responsibility and used her sisters passport, so has committed a crime regardless of what she did overseas.

Bipat Jul 18th 2020 3:08 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by paulry (Post 12883554)
Bipat's chatter mate :typing::typing:

No, No----he was the chatter mate of Morpeth. They agreed on everything. :lol:

DaveLovesDee Jul 18th 2020 3:12 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12883552)
Not the same kind of "grooming". The Rochdale girls were very vulnerable, these girls were bright, but brainwashed by their warped religion.

We'll disagree on that, but grooming covers a wide scope.

BristolUK Jul 18th 2020 3:24 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Decision by UK court. Taking back control is "what people wanted" isn't it? :sneaky:

macliam Jul 18th 2020 3:42 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12883583)
Yes-- that is the point. She was made Stateless---Against international law. I thought it wrong at the time.
I believe she was 15 years old so of the age of criminal responsibility and used her sisters passport, so has committed a crime regardless of what she did overseas.

I don't disagree.... however, that is hardly grounds for revocation of citizenship - let alone doing so when it makes her stateless. It is a crime under UK law, so should be applied to a UK citizen in a UK court.

However, it is now being claimed that her citizenship was revoked to prevent her return to the UK (though, as you point out, she had no valid passport) and that allowing her back to face the court would "undo" that decision. This admits that the UKs decision was precisely to "dump" her on someone, anyone, else and avoid responsibility for its own citizen. I also note that some opponents are suggesting that she sould have been killed in an extrajudicial strike.... so much for justice.

BritInParis Jul 19th 2020 12:20 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Why are some posters still labouring under the misapprehension that Begum is stateless? I’m pretty sure we dispelled that myth 40 pages ago.

From Court of Appeal judgement section entitled ‘The factual background’:


8. Ms Begum was born on 25 August 1999 in the United Kingdom, where she was brought up. At birth, she held British citizenship under section 1(1) of the BNA because her parents were both settled in the United Kingdom. SIAC found (in its decision on the first preliminary issue) that she also holds Bangladeshi citizenship by descent through her parents by virtue of section 5 of the Bangladesh Citizenship Act 1951.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...ent-NCN-02.pdf

kimilseung Jul 19th 2020 12:23 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12883490)
If she had truly been groomed then I doubt her citizenship would have been revoked in the first place. This country and most others take a very dim view on acts of treason.

"Treason" has to be be one of the most meaningless. and abused words in the average lexicon..I tend to turn off whenever I hear it.

Former Lancastrian Jul 19th 2020 1:17 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12883813)
Why are some posters still labouring under the misapprehension that Begum is stateless? I’m pretty sure we dispelled that myth 40 pages ago.

From Court of Appeal judgement section entitled ‘The factual background’:



https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...ent-NCN-02.pdf

Please don't quote facts as some people believe that because the Bangladeshi Authorities disagree with this that they believe she is stateless after having her UK citizenship revoked.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47312207


BEVS Jul 19th 2020 2:02 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12883813)
Why are some posters still labouring under the misapprehension that Begum is stateless? I’m pretty sure we dispelled that myth 40 pages ago.

From Court of Appeal judgement section entitled ‘The factual background’:



https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...ent-NCN-02.pdf


Quite

macliam Jul 19th 2020 4:18 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12883813)
Why are some posters still labouring under the misapprehension that Begum is stateless? I’m pretty sure we dispelled that myth 40 pages ago.

From Court of Appeal judgement section entitled ‘The factual background’:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...ent-NCN-02.pdf

Given the continued refusal of the Bangladeshi government to recognize Begim's citizenship, the withdrawal of her Btitish nationality through birth has effectively rendered her stateless. SIAC has no authority to enforce it's view on Bangladesh, so its decision is merely a legal gloss on the UK's action of passing the buck.

Scamp Jul 19th 2020 6:46 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Bit late to this party but wasn't the reason the decision is being reviewed that the previous was made with her remotely and they've decided it's fairer for her to put her case forward in person?

In which case, why the butthurt? Let the girl come back and a decision be made in person. Yes, we'll waste a lot of money doing it as a nation and it'll just make us look daft to a lot of people if it results in the same decision but let's just get on with it.
We have multiple layers of courts to deal with the ambiguity and interpretation of hundreds of years of legal adjustments and we're in really strange waters with such a case, if we strip a person of their citizenship, let's do it properly.

kimilseung Jul 19th 2020 6:49 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 12883872)
Bit late to this party but wasn't the reason the decision is being reviewed that the previous was made with her remotely and they've decided it's fairer for her to put her case forward in person?

In which case, why the butthurt? Let the girl come back and a decision be made in person. Yes, we'll waste a lot of money doing it as a nation and it'll just make us look daft to a lot of people if it results in the same decision but let's just get on with it.
We have multiple layers of courts to deal with the ambiguity and interpretation of hundreds of years of legal adjustments and we're in really strange waters with such a case, if we strip a person of their citizenship, let's do it properly.

I think the issue would be, once she is in, you wouldnt be able to get rid of her.


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