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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

EMR Apr 15th 2019 8:36 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12671367)
The UK situation is a bit moot, we can hope that justice will be done.

If the courts rule for her then justice will be done, against her then justice will be done.
That is what makes the UK the country it is.
No moronic politicians but the law making decisions..

Boiler Apr 15th 2019 8:40 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
She has to answer for the crimes she has done in Syria. That should be the focus and all we can do is support the Syrian people in seeing that through.

Giantaxe Apr 15th 2019 8:49 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 12671351)
Guantanamo was built specifically to hold those who were captured in a political no-mans-land battlefield situation and who appeared in many respects to be stateless (they were disowned by their home country) or where there was no central government to hold and prosecute them as appropriate, or it wasn't immediately clear which country truly was their home country. When a country was willing (later) to accept jurisdiction for them they were sent there, that is how most of the men held there were disposed of.

Guantanamo was used specifically so the US could hold people ad infinitum without the rights they would have likely gained had they been brought to the US itself. Really, it had little to do with statelessness etc. The fact that two of the released were from Australia and Britain is illustrative of this.

macliam Apr 15th 2019 9:39 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Giantaxe (Post 12671385)
Guantanamo was used specifically so the US could hold people ad infinitum without the rights they would have likely gained had they been brought to the US itself. Really, it had little to do with statelessness etc. The fact that two of the released were from Australia and Britain is illustrative of this.

I've stayed out of this renewal up to now, but you'll win few friends posting accurate information, so I'll support you.....

To continue, unlike the claims made here, she is not being held "in Syria" nor is she nor subject to Syrian law ...... probably just as well, because otherwise she would already have been imprisoned without trial, tortured and murdered, like so many others in Assad's empire. She is currently in a camp in a Kurdish-controlled part of the middle-east, but since they have no recognized state or legal system, they realise they can hardly try her there. Indeed, her "hosts" had hoped that she, like other foreigners, would be taken back to their birth nations and dealt with there - and although they are the ones who actually suffered due to daesh, they respect justice enough not to summarily condemn her without trial. They are also aware that the West's great ally in the region is champing at the bit to destroy them - so the chances are, the camp will either be under the control of the Assad regime or Turkey in the not-too-distant future, now that they have been hung out to dry by Trump.

Before anyone chimes in, I bow to nobody in my condemnation of the evil that is daesh and I am no apologist for those who committed crimes on behalf of the so-called Islamic State, but I am equally clear that what makes us different to them is a commitment to justice. Justice says that nobody should be condemned without a fair trial and, unlike US practice, I do not believe justice is served by outsourcing "wet jobs" to areas where the rules that constrain us do not apply, be that in offshore enclaves or foreign states. Javid jumped the gun and has been condemned by those better versed in the law and the detail than I am. She must now be brought back to the UK and tried for whatever charges (not newspaper reports) apply and suffer whatever consequences pertain. The rest is hot air.

EMR Apr 15th 2019 9:50 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12671375)
She has to answer for the crimes she has done in Syria. That should be the focus and all we can do is support the Syrian people in seeing that through.

What crimes, where is the indictment and where should she stand trial for them if such crimes do in fact exist.
The Hague is where war criminals are tried , so how about there.?
The only crime she has been accused of is belonging to a proscribed organisation Isis.

Boiler Apr 15th 2019 9:53 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
I can only go by the geographical location where the camp is and the BBC showed the camp to be in Syria.

I have no idea what the Kurdish system for dealing with crimes is but I highly doubt they do not have one. Or maybe more than one.

Nobody is saying she should not be tried. Quite the contrary,

Sort of surprised you encourage US presence in the ME, they should have never gone in, and should keep out, but that is for another thread.

We can agree on outsourcing, justice needs to be done in the country the crimes occurred. Not outsourced.

Boiler Apr 15th 2019 9:54 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12670589)
Shamima Begum was a member of the Isis morality police, a feared group which enforced the terror organisation’s strict interpretation of Islamic law, according to reports.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8869016.html

This?

macliam Apr 15th 2019 10:00 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12671437)
This?

Trial by the press isn't a recognised system - I'm sure the authorities are more than able to determine the truth.

Boiler Apr 15th 2019 10:03 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12671440)
Trial by the press isn't a recognised system - I'm sure the authorities are more than able to determine the truth.

Of course not and I was not suggesting it was but plenty to investigate. I was responding to the she did nothing.

EMR Apr 15th 2019 10:19 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12671434)
I can only go by the geographical location where the camp is and the BBC showed the camp to be in Syria.

I have no idea what the Kurdish system for dealing with crimes is but I highly doubt they do not have one. Or maybe more than one.

Nobody is saying she should not be tried. Quite the contrary,

Sort of surprised you encourage US presence in the ME, they should have never gone in, and should keep out, but that is for another thread.

We can agree on outsourcing, justice needs to be done in the country the crimes occurred. Not outsourced.

What country, the government of Syria does not have any control over the area where the camps are and International condemnation would explode at any suggestion of handing over women and children to the genocidal Assad regime..
Perhaps being in the states you only get a fraction of the information and news coverage we receive in Europe and the UK.
If the US news channels we see are anything to go by that is certainly the case..


Boiler Apr 15th 2019 10:23 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
I am not expecting anything to happen soon, the Nuremberg Trials took 18 months and that was arguably a much simpler situation.

US news channels are awful.

EMR Apr 15th 2019 10:28 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12671457)
I am not expecting anything to happen soon, the Nuremberg Trials took 18 months and that was arguably a much simpler situation.

US news channels are awful.

That explains where you get your wrong information from.

Boiler Apr 15th 2019 10:31 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12671462)
That explains where you get your wrong information from.

I am not even sure they mentioned her name, there is a US version who has sort of similar issues. Well probably more than one but not a big coverage issue I think.

Assanah Apr 16th 2019 4:12 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12671440)
Trial by the press isn't a recognised system - I'm sure the authorities are more than able to determine the truth.

Does it bother you that Shamina might just turn out to be what many on this thread have predicted?
Can't you just drop your sexist attitude and see these women for what they are? They supported genocide! They supported slavery, war, terror. I have certain symphathies for the Syrians that lived in ISIS territory because it's there home....but to leave a safe and peaceful country to wage war that's a different matter. The UK government is now talking about making it a crime to move to such territories. Very good it will make it easy to prosecute those women for their crimes.

This "I was just a housewife" and *look innocent with your big brown eyes attitude* is an old female trick. We should not fall for it. We should see them for what they are and take it from there. Don't forget about the genocide of the Yazidis. Don't forget about those raped slaves! Don't forget about those refugees that had to leave because Shamina moved in.

macliam Apr 16th 2019 5:58 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12671556)
Does it bother you that Shamina might just turn out to be what many on this thread have predicted?
Can't you just drop your sexist attitude and see these women for what they are? They supported genocide! They supported slavery, war, terror. I have certain symphathies for the Syrians that lived in ISIS territory because it's there home....but to leave a safe and peaceful country to wage war that's a different matter. The UK government is now talking about making it a crime to move to such territories. Very good it will make it easy to prosecute those women for their crimes.

This "I was just a housewife" and *look innocent with your big brown eyes attitude* is an old female trick. We should not fall for it. We should see them for what they are and take it from there. Don't forget about the genocide of the Yazidis. Don't forget about those raped slaves! Don't forget about those refugees that had to leave because Shamina moved in.

Does it bother you that you appear to suggest that we suspend the rule of law - I don't support the summary execution of prisoners either - do you?
Are you suggesting we should apply some retrospective law? - and on what planet is my insistence that the rule of law applies a "sexist attitude"?
I am fully aware of what was done by daesh, I hope that this disgusting corruption of Islam has been dealt a mortal blow and I fully support prosecution of anyone responsible for crimes in its name.

I am fully aware that this young woman decided to join them at the age of 15 and I don't excuse her for any actions she committed - but neither do I believe she is individually culpable of crimes committed by daesh in general. I do believe she has a joint responsibility with all the others who joined that organization, but then her punishment should be the same as theirs.
I do not have proof of anything that she did, other than to run away to join a proscribed organization - but even if I did, I am neither judge nor jury - and neither are you. Therefore I depend on the established legal system to apply in this case as in all others, not some odd form of vengeance. That is what makes us different to daesh.

Are you aware of the atrocities carried out in Bosnia? Do you recall anyone other than the commanders or those individually accused of war crimes being prosecuted after that conflict - so how is this case different?
Begum must be charged and tried for whatever crimes she is deemed to have committed, but just suspending the rule of law is not an acceptable response.


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