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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

spouse of scouse Feb 20th 2019 8:06 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12640022)
If she's British she should be allowed to return to Britain - this should be a fundamental & inalienable right of any British citizen, regardless of our distaste for them.

The revoking of her citizenship is clearly politically motivated and morally repugnant. Next Javid will be getting the pitchforks out.

Sure, if we think she has broken British laws she should be tried in a court of law and suitably imprisoned - the longer the better.

If you want to discuss 'morally repugnant', how about you start with what ISIS believes is their 'fundamental and inalienable right' - and their duty - to commit indiscriminate mass murder in Britain?

Cape Blue Feb 20th 2019 8:08 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 12640030)
If you want to discuss 'morally repugnant', how about you start with what ISIS believes is their 'fundamental and inalienable right' - and their duty - to commit indiscriminate mass murder in Britain?

Yes, she has exhibited morally repugnant views. If those can be shown to break the law she should be suitably punished.

Expatrick Feb 20th 2019 8:23 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
The question of being stateless should not arise. She is, by choice, a "citizen" of the so called Islamic State. The fact that the IS is not recognised is her problem.

Shard Feb 20th 2019 8:39 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12640038)
The question of being stateless should not arise. She is, by choice, a "citizen" of the so called Islamic State. The fact that the IS is not recognised is her problem.

What a good point. I don't see why anyone would want this young woman back in the UK, and bringing her back simply to spend thousands of pounds accommodating her prison not a particularly smart option. In fact, I don't even think there is much of a rationale to allow her newborn into Britain. I'd rather see a Syrian refugee & child be offered a place in Britain than this "traitor".

Expatrick Feb 20th 2019 9:06 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
Apparenty her parents are taking legal action - no doubt at the expense of the British taxpayer.

On a personal level, my Wife would be b***** annoyed if Begun were to be granted Dutch citizenship as she (my Wife) who had a Dutch Father, was recently denied her Dutch citizenship on the grounds that she had married an Englishman.

Shard Feb 20th 2019 9:18 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12640062)
Apparenty her parents are taking legal action - no doubt at the expense of the British taxpayer.

On a personal level, my Wife would be b***** annoyed if Begun were to be granted Dutch citizenship as she (my Wife) who had a Dutch Father, was recently denied her Dutch citizenship on the grounds that she had married an Englishman.

I don't think the taxpayer will have to pay for her legal appeal. Although, obviously plenty of HO resource will be wasted on this silly woman.

Bipat Feb 20th 2019 9:52 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12640069)
I don't think the taxpayer will have to pay for her legal appeal. Although, obviously plenty of HO resource will be wasted on this silly woman.

There are so many questions about this girl. Was she radicalised before or just when she was there? What did her parents know? (Parents from the Subcontinent usually like to know exactly what their daughters are up to but do often fail!).
Would she have wanted to come home if all had gone well with ISIS?
Was she just a silly 15 year old with romantic ideas like those before who went off to fight in the Spanish Civil war---or boys joining the French Foreign Legion?
What if any are the dangers to he UK of her returning?

What is certain is that her baby is not a 'traitor' --see above post. However does one baby matter??

It is worth comparing Shamima with that other 15 year old Malala Yousafzai shot for daring to attend school. Look how she has made her life.
Her speech to the UN---'One book, one pen----one child'!!
Maybe at least this one child of Shamima Begum should be rescued somehow.

Thairetired2016 Feb 20th 2019 9:56 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12639819)
There is of course no good ending and there are hundreds now and thousands to come where this solution may not be an option. Well who knows how many, a lot.

There is an appeals process btw and I am sure the usual suspects will not be happy, begs the question what would you need to do to make them happy.

As far as the child is concerned that is an issue for the Bangladeshi authorities now, like any other Bangladeshi child.

Isn't the child's father Dutch? What about Dutch citizenship for the baby? Might give it better chance in life than Bangladeshi one.

Shard Feb 20th 2019 10:10 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12640085)
There are so many questions about this girl. Was she radicalised before or just when she was there? What did her parents know? (Parents from the Subcontinent usually like to know exactly what their daughters are up to but do often fail!).
Would she have wanted to come home if all had gone well with ISIS?
Was she just a silly 15 year old with romantic ideas like those before who went off to fight in the Spanish Civil war---or boys joining the French Foreign Legion?
What if any are the dangers to he UK of her returning?

What is certain is that her baby is not a 'traitor' --see above post. However does one baby matter??

It is worth comparing Shamima with that other 15 year old Malala Yousafzai shot for daring to attend school. Look how she has made her life.
Her speech to the UN---'One book, one pen----one child'!!
Maybe at least this one child of Shamima Begum should be rescued somehow.

Well, I didn't call the newborn a 'traitor' but at the same, given his/her parents, I don't see any immediate reason for the state to confirm citizenship. Indeed, a humanist argument could be made to keep the child with the mother, wherever she may be.

I think an interesting aspect of this story is Shamima's lack of contrition. She has shown very little of it in her two interviews, and I can't help but think if she did genuinely regret her actions and recognize the merit of British society she would be more sympathetically received. It wouldn't effect my judgement of her, I have so low opinion of her that I would be happy with whatever hardship comes her way.

As for her parents, some sympathy. Even within this community I think there are many parents who have no idea of what is going on in their teenagers heads. I don't know enough about the parents,but the father on TV seemed a decent enough fellow.

On another level I think Javid is right to send the message to certain communities that British citizenship confers responsibilities as well as rights. The world has moved well passes the Spanish civil war, and citizens are far more aware of history and consequences. Making Begum's return problematic will send an overdue message to other naive or reckless Brits that there actions will have personal consequences.

chawkins99 Feb 20th 2019 10:44 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
In response to learning of the loss of citizenship Ms Begum said: "I am a bit shocked. It's a bit upsetting and frustrating. I feel like it's a bit unjust on me and my son."

Yet seeing people murdered and beheaded was not in the slightest bit shocking, upsetting or unjust.

Shard Feb 20th 2019 10:45 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12640119)
In response to learning of the loss of citizenship Ms Begum said: "I am a bit shocked. It's a bit upsetting and frustrating. I feel like it's a bit unjust on me and my son."

Yet seeing people murdered and beheaded was not in the slightest bit shocking, upsetting or unjust.

She doesn't seem the sharpest tool in the box.

paulry Feb 20th 2019 10:48 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by chawkins99 (Post 12640121)
In response to learning of the loss of citizenship Ms Begum said: "I am a bit shocked. It's a bit upsetting and frustrating. I feel like it's a bit unjust on me and my son."

Yet seeing people murdered and beheaded was not in the slightest bit shocking, upsetting or unjust.

I agree.

But I bet you the decision gets overturned and she returns to the UK.

Lion in Winter Feb 20th 2019 10:55 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12640022)
If she's British she should be allowed to return to Britain - this should be a fundamental & inalienable right of any British citizen, regardless of our distaste for them.

The revoking of her citizenship is clearly politically motivated and morally repugnant. Next Javid will be getting the pitchforks out.

Sure, if we think she has broken British laws she should be tried in a court of law and suitably imprisoned - the longer the better.


Well this is awkward - there is a good point here, which I also mentioned upthread.

As repugnant as this young woman's words and actions are, and as much as she in herself probably provides no value to the UK at all or anyone else very much, and as much as it's natural and understandable to want to keep her out (a feeling that I share at the personal level), I do worry about a minister, a functionary of the state, being able to remove someone's citizenship in absentia, at the stroke of a pen, no investigation and no due process at all. Just some bloke in an office.

This is not about any perceived injustice to her personally - I can't muster up any sympathy - but as a process, the ability of a government functionary to remove citizenship in this way strikes me as undesirable. I'm sure we can all imagine - and even recognize from not-too-distant history - situations where such powers have been appallingly misused.

I'll duck and cover now... :)

Lion in Winter Feb 20th 2019 10:58 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12640122)
She doesn't seem the sharpest tool in the box.

Understatement of the year. She's still talking like a bolshie 13-year-old. And not a clever one. Or a nice one.

Shard Feb 20th 2019 11:00 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12640129)
Well this is awkward - there is a good point here, which I also mentioned upthread.

As repugnant as this young woman's words and actions are, and as much as she in herself probably provides no value to the UK at all or anyone else very much, and as much as it's natural and understandable to want to keep her out (a feeling that I share at the personal level), I do worry about a minister, a functionary of the state, being able to remove someone's citizenship in absentia, at the stroke of a pen, no investigation and no due process at all. Just some bloke in an office.

This is not about any perceived injustice to her personally - I can't muster up any sympathy - but as a process, the ability of a government functionary to remove citizenship in this way strikes me as undesirable. I'm sure we can all imagine - and even recognize from not-too-distant history - situations where such powers have been appallingly misused.

I'll duck and cover now... :)

He's not really a 'bloke in an office' he's a minister of state, acting on behalf of the government. He and the government must account for their actions. It's a decision, and not an arbitrary one. The judicial process will determine whether he had authority or not. I would say you are over-thinking it.


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