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-   -   Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-922232/)

macliam Feb 24th 2019 11:44 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by materialcontroller (Post 12642781)
Best place for her imo.

Nice. Been to any good lynchings lately?

materialcontroller Feb 24th 2019 11:52 am

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12642799)
Nice. Been to any good lynchings lately?

No, and to be honest I don't really care for your ludicrous and inflammatory insinuation.

Former Lancastrian Feb 24th 2019 12:04 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12642772)
As of this week, Shamima Begum is no longer a British citizen. Therefore the UK has already made her stateless as she currently holds no other citizenship. As Patrick Galey said in Politico "The government argues that because Begum could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship in future, she isn’t technically stateless. This is hard to take seriously. It would be analogous for the government to demolish your house, then deny it had made you homeless because you could theoretically build another." So, the only citizenship that she had was British by birth and the British Government has used Royal Prerogative to strip her of this, without judicial oversight.

What part of the fact that she DOES NOT have dual citizenship is it so hard to understand? At best, she WAS in a position where she could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship until age 21 - but acceptance is NOT automatic, she has NOT applied and the Bangladeshi government has said citizenship will NOT be granted. So Javid has jumped the gun - but will likely sit back and leave her stateless until forced to rescind his order. Until then, she will remain as a stateless person in a refugee camp run by a non-government militia - out of sight, out of mind.

Having done some more research it is correct that she could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship until age 21 but I also believe that there is some argument that the Bangladeshi Govt is not taking into consideration article 1(1) of the 1954 Convention.


macliam Feb 24th 2019 12:20 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by materialcontroller (Post 12642803)
No, and to be honest I don't really care for your ludicrous and inflammatory insinuation.

Not really, seems you're happy for someone to be condemned without charge or trial and to see her deprived of life because you believe her to be "evil".
Regardless of her actions, your own attitude seems a bit fundamentalist, doesn't it?

EMR Feb 24th 2019 12:25 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12642808)
Having done some more research it is correct that she could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship until age 21 but I also believe that there is some argument that the Bangladeshi Govt is not taking into consideration article 1(1) of the 1954 Convention.

The obvious step is let the highest levels of the UK courts rule on it.
Not us, not a Tory minister with his own agenda but those institutions which set us apart and superior to Isis and any other organisation that defines people by beliefs, colour or race...

Former Lancastrian Feb 24th 2019 12:28 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12642817)
The obvious step is let the highest levels of the UK courts rule on it.
Not us, not a Tory minister with his own agenda but those institutions which set us apart and superior to Isis and any other organisation that defines people by beliefs, colour or race...

This I agree with and have reiterated this in quite a few posts. I guess the next question is do/can the courts deal with this only if she is in the UK or can it be done in abstentia if she is unable to return to the UK?

macliam Feb 24th 2019 12:36 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12642808)
Having done some more research it is correct that she could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship until age 21 but I also believe that there is some argument that the Bangladeshi Govt is not taking into consideration article 1(1) of the 1954 Convention.

"some argument" suggests there is a need for clarification. Advice from the Bangladeshi consulate in New York says
"2. Is it obligatory for a foreign citizen of Bangladesh origin to apply for and receive DNC (Dual Nationality certificate) in order to retain his/her Bangladesh citizenship?
Yes, it is obligatory to receive DNC in order to retain Bangladesh Citizenship.
"

Therefore, as she had never applied for dual nationality and was a British national by birth, she did not retain Bangladeshi citizenship. It is not within Sajid Javid's power or foresight for her to become a citizen of another country at some point in the future, yet he decided to ignore this and to make her stateless.

EMR Feb 24th 2019 12:37 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12642820)
This I agree with and have reiterated this in quite a few posts. I guess the next question is do/can the courts deal with this only if she is in the UK or can it be done in abstentia if she is unable to return to the UK?

I see no problem in her case being tried in absentia, .
Javid will have to prove that, she presents a real and genuine threat to the UK he will also have to prove that she has dual citizenship and that his declaring her stateless was a legal act...

BristolUK Feb 24th 2019 12:39 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
I knew that Shamima was one of three to go and I knew that a Sharmeema preceded them. I didn't know that there was another, in between who was removed from a plane and another three, later, were made wards of court before going. All from the same school. Eight of them.

According to the guardian today the families are complaining that they were kept in the dark and that the police knew of certain information that they didn't pass on. "They didn’t disclose it to us or the families. They didn’t feel that the parents or the community could be trusted with that information. They were looking at it from the counter-terrorism viewpoint,” said a source.

There had been a large increase in terrorist incidents, aid workers, journalists being kidnapped and videos released of their beheadings. Eight pupils from the same school in the same community decide to make secret plans to go off and join those behind all this and the police decide not to share certain information with people in that community. Prior to the girls' disappearance.

I wonder why. :rolleyes:

I can just imagine it. Anger at the suggestion that "our girls" are planning to go to ISIS and the community backlash that such a suggestion would bring forth and the near certainty that those assisting and enabling would be better placed to change plans, bring them forward or maybe even decide on something else.

Sometimes it's hard to maintain one's liberalism. :(

macliam Feb 24th 2019 12:41 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12642820)
This I agree with and have reiterated this in quite a few posts. I guess the next question is do/can the courts deal with this only if she is in the UK or can it be done in abstentia if she is unable to return to the UK?

She is no longer a British citizen, due to Javid's declaration, and prevented from returning to the UK.
Therefore British courts have no jurisdiction and, in order for this "obvious" course of action to take place, her citizenship would have to be restored.
Knee-jerk reactions can be complicated, eh?

EMR Feb 24th 2019 12:43 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12642836)
She is no longer a British citizen, due to Javid's declaration, and prevented from returning to the UK.
Therefore British courts have no jurisdiction and, in order for this "obvious" course of action to take place, her citizenship would have to be restored.
Knee-jerk reactions can be complicated, eh?

The same was said of the the Windrus h fiasco, look how that turned out for the government...

Former Lancastrian Feb 24th 2019 12:58 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12642828)
"some argument" suggests there is a need for clarification. Advice from the Bangladeshi consulate in New York says
"2. Is it obligatory for a foreign citizen of Bangladesh origin to apply for and receive DNC (Dual Nationality certificate) in order to retain his/her Bangladesh citizenship?
Yes, it is obligatory to receive DNC in order to retain Bangladesh Citizenship.
"

Therefore, as she had never applied for dual nationality and was a British national by birth, she did not retain Bangladeshi citizenship. It is not within sajid Javid's power or foresight for her to become a citizen of another country at some point in the future, yet he decided to ignore this and to make her stateless.

This well maybe true however I guess the dispute is Bangladesh is not a country that signed the 1954 convention or the 1961 convention on the reduction of statelessness however in 2008 the Bangladesh High Court made a ruling to give citizenship to 300,000 then stateless Urdu speakers. Perhaps Mr Javid believes that Bangladesh does not have the authority to override these conventions.

macliam Feb 24th 2019 1:54 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 12642848)
This well maybe true however I guess the dispute is Bangladesh is not a country that signed the 1954 convention or the 1961 convention on the reduction of statelessness however in 2008 the Bangladesh High Court made a ruling to give citizenship to 300,000 then stateless Urdu speakers. Perhaps Mr Javid believes that Bangladesh does not have the authority to override these conventions.

.... and perhaps he is more focused on his ratings as a "hard" Home Secretary. :whistle:
The Home Secretary's executive power to decide on matters relating to citizenship, without judicial oversight, is another of the questionable outcomes of Theresa May's last-minute amendment to the 2014 Immigration Bill. What a Pandora's box that is turning out to be......

I refer you to the article I quoted previously - as I, like you, am no expert in this area - Britains Shamima Begum Double Standard

Boiler Feb 24th 2019 2:17 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 
I vaguely understand the motivations of ISIS, I have no clue about their apologists.

materialcontroller Feb 24th 2019 2:31 pm

Re: Shamima Begum has UK citizenship revoked
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12642814)
Not really, seems you're happy for someone to be condemned without charge or trial and to see her deprived of life because you believe her to be "evil".
Regardless of her actions, your own attitude seems a bit fundamentalist, doesn't it?


We've seen evidence presented here which suggests it was legal for the Home Secretary to act as he did (in fact your later post alludes to this). That's good enough for me. I put my trust in the authorities, so that I don't have to worry about the minutae of every course of action.

You keep talking about morality, so I assume that's the basis of your objections, not necessarily any indications of illegality. In that case, you and me are on totally different pages as far as cases such as these are concerned.


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