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President Trump.

President Trump.

Old Feb 9th 2020, 7:26 am
  #27586  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
Here's my take on it:

1. We only pay the levy if we don't buy over-priced medical insurance.
Paulry, this is not correct - have a look at the ATO page I linked to earlier. We pay 2% of taxable income, that is per person and not per family, and that is not part of your overall income tax rate. So if you gross $100,000, which is in the 37% income tax bracket - you pay $2,000 for Medicare, and then you pay $37,000 for your income tax, for $39,000 total. You pay that 2% and so does moneypenny20. If you do your income taxes longhand this year, you will see it.

There is also a surcharge of up to 1.5% if your joint income is over $180,000, that is called the Medicare Levy Surcharge.

The fee you are referencing, is the private insurance surcharge penalty if you don't buy private insurance but later get it.​​​​​, 2% gets added on to your insurance premium for every year you didn't have private insurance up to 20%.

However, the point is not to debate the Australian system and whether it is "good" or "bad" - the point is to highlight how many Americans are going to be substantially worse off financially under such a universal health care system. My own estimate is that we are $4,000 per year worse off here than under the old system I was on in the US. A very large percentage of voters, probably in the 50-65% range, are in the same boat and they continually get forgotten about in the whole debate.

So if you have someone in America getting a free or subsidised family insurance plan through their employer - which is about 65% of the population - and you replace that with a 2% income tax per person in the family, and then make them buy private insurance anyways out of their own pocket . . . this is slugging American families thousands of Dollars per year, that they are not paying now.

As you saw, pointing this out made me a target for a few rigid ideologues. But telling me to sit down and shut up doesn't change the reality of this. Successful implementation of universal health care in the United States means that it also has to be a win for that 65% or so. This is why past attempts to install universal health care in the United States have gone down in flames.

It is incredibly disappointing to see that certain politicians (and, posters . . .) have learned absolutely nothing from these past failures and are happy to set off down the track to 1994 and 2010 once again. Promising these 50-65% of voters a BernieBill or a WarrenBill of an extra $3,000 to $8,000 a year in taxes for less service than they receive now, is begging them to vote for Trump - and they will happily do so, and they will have "CF = 0" about how activists and ideologues feel about it.

Giantaxe - what is the protection for this 50-65%? My own sense is that, as the US is one of the only countries to offer private health insurance as a standard employee benefit - this will get cut immediately on installation of a universal system. US employers will not buck the trend and keep this as a benefit. What is "in it" for this group - or how can an American version of universal health care differ from the NHS or the Australian system outlined so that it delivers for this group?

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Old Feb 9th 2020, 8:38 am
  #27587  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
Spain is not burdened with the staggering costs of a huge military complex that eats up a very sizeable amount of the national budget nor has it anywhere near the population numbers as that of the US. To give Trump his due he has criticized NATO members for failing to meet their monetary obligations and considering the combined economic wealth of Germany, France and the UK he was perfectly correct in doing so. It's unfortunate but the fact is that historical events in Europe eventually led to the
US being thrust into the role of defender of the free world and the cost of this has deprived the country of being able to use it's monetary resources to benefit it's own citizens as it should have been




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Old Feb 9th 2020, 10:35 am
  #27588  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
I would say that the younger generation are overall pretty smart compared to past generations. They're not likely to be misled by conniving politicians, fed loads of bullshit and led off to war to be slaughtered wholesale on the fields of battle as their grandparents and great grandparents generations were. Nor are they as racist or intolerant as past generations. I feel sorry for them and I certainly don't hate my grandkids. They're inheriting a world that's been pretty badly ****ed around both socially and environmentally and the challenges they'll have to face 25-30 years from now are daunting to put it mildly
That might explain why Trump supporters are mostly older and less educated.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 3:06 pm
  #27589  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
That might explain why Trump supporters are mostly older and less educated.
And too outFOXed to realize that Trump is actively working on slashing their Medicare and Social Security just waiting for when he won't need their "support" after 2020.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 4:11 pm
  #27590  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
The Australians characterize their very dear friends, the British, as “whinging Poms,” so I’ve always supposed it to be a positive description.
No, it's not a 'positive' description. You would have to understand the relationship to have any idea. Patently you don't.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 4:12 pm
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
That might explain why Trump supporters are mostly older and less educated.
A disgusting observation and says more about you than them.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 4:24 pm
  #27592  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
No, it's not a 'positive' description. You would have to understand the relationship to have any idea. Patently you don't.
I mean this with respect, are you autistic?
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 4:27 pm
  #27593  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
No, it's not a 'positive' description. You would have to understand the relationship to have any idea. Patently you don't.
So you admit using insults ??????

Ahem.

Excuse me, sir. Please sir if I may, politely and without insult, point out to you that you may be in danger of defeating yourself, sir.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 4:29 pm
  #27594  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
A disgusting observation and says more about you than them.
Is "disgusting" a positive description?
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 4:32 pm
  #27595  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by carcajou View Post
Giantaxe - what is the protection for this 50-65%? My own sense is that, as the US is one of the only countries to offer private health insurance as a standard employee benefit - this will get cut immediately on installation of a universal system. US employers will not buck the trend and keep this as a benefit. What is "in it" for this group - or how can an American version of universal health care differ from the NHS or the Australian system outlined so that it delivers for this group?
It's a mandate for employers of over 50 (?) employees to provide health insurance. That was introduced by the ACA aka Obamacare.

Not sure why you are directing this at me as I've frequently argued on this thread that "Medicare for All" is not politically possible in the US. But I will point out that just as "Medicare for All" isn't "free", neither is employer-provided insurance. The cost is either money that can't be used to pay higher salaries (plenty of evidence that there is a correlation between stagnating wages and insurance cost rises) or it's passed on in the form of higher prices. Plus, of course, it's a relatively "fixed" cost that is incurred by businesses regardless of the size of their profits. Finally, tying health insurance to employment is a crazy idea anyway. The all too common scenario is get sick -> lose job -> can't afford private insurance -> go bankrupt.

Last edited by Giantaxe; Feb 9th 2020 at 4:58 pm.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 4:40 pm
  #27596  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
No, it's not a 'positive' description. You would have to understand the relationship to have any idea. Patently you don't.
This has got to be one of the weirdest and most pathetic posts I’ve ever seen on BE.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 8:16 pm
  #27597  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by Giantaxe View Post
It's a mandate for employers of over 50 (?) employees to provide health insurance. That was introduced by the ACA aka Obamacare.

Not sure why you are directing this at me as I've frequently argued on this thread that "Medicare for All" is not politically possible in the US. But I will point out that just as "Medicare for All" isn't "free", neither is employer-provided insurance. The cost is either money that can't be used to pay higher salaries (plenty of evidence that there is a correlation between stagnating wages and insurance cost rises) or it's passed on in the form of higher prices. Plus, of course, it's a relatively "fixed" cost that is incurred by businesses regardless of the size of their profits. Finally, tying health insurance to employment is a crazy idea anyway. The all too common scenario is get sick -> lose job -> can't afford private insurance -> go bankrupt.
It was directed at you because I genuinely wanted to know what your comments on it were, considering you do understand Medicare For All is not free candy for everyone.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 9:27 pm
  #27598  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
And too outFOXed to realize that Trump is actively working on slashing their Medicare and Social Security just waiting for when he won't need their "support" after 2020.

Which wont happen since any cuts would be vetoed by Congress and another veto in the Senate even by Republicans since many of them represent districts of older voters and they're not going to piss them off by going along with Trump in that respect.

Slashing Medicare and Social security is just alarmist bullshit. Nothing to do with Fox News
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 9:47 pm
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
That might explain why Trump supporters are mostly older and less educated.

Older in many cases ? Yes. Less educated? Not necessarily. Nor are they the "deplorables" as arrogant Hillary described them in 2016. From my experience in life I've come to the conclusion that the "intelligentsia" of the world generally manage to achieve very little of actual value as it would benefit society. The real movers and shakers do not spend their time on talk shows boring people to death with their criticisms of those they feel "intellectually" superior to nor waste time writing articles or books that less than one eighth of the world bother to read.

There is no choice but Trump in 2020. I'm sure I'm not alone when I look at what's left of his challengers, weak. sniveling. Just bad vibes from the lot of them.

Last edited by dc koop; Feb 9th 2020 at 9:50 pm.
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Old Feb 9th 2020, 10:18 pm
  #27600  
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Default re: President Trump.

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
Which wont happen since any cuts would be vetoed by Congress and another veto in the Senate even by Republicans since many of them represent districts of older voters and they're not going to piss them off by going along with Trump in that respect.

Slashing Medicare and Social security is just alarmist bullshit. Nothing to do with Fox News
Given McConnell has already stated that "entitlements" - including Medicare and Social Security - must be reduced, it certainly isn't alarmist bullshit if we end up with Trump as president and the Republicans in charge of both houses. And Trump himself has already raised the prospect:

https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...ocial-security

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christi.../#54151a9f394b

And here's what McConnell said after the Trump tax "cuts" were enacted:

https://www.newsweek.com/deficit-bud...lement-1172941

Last edited by Giantaxe; Feb 9th 2020 at 11:10 pm.
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