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Post EU Referendum...Part II

Post EU Referendum...Part II

Old Aug 18th 2018, 10:43 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
The NHS recruits staff from developing countries who need these educated, vital young minds and leaves the host country bereft of care. It's just another form of colonialism - in the past we took their people and commodities, now we buy them on the cheap

Yes, it is cheaper, but is it better?
They apply to many countries just a British expats apply for jobs abroad. They are not "bought". They are payed the same salaries as British NHS staff obviously.

The countries I happen to know, are certainly not "bereft" of care. There are plenty of "educated, vital young minds" left.
It is neither better or worse just the same qualifications necessary.
Are you "trolling?
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Old Aug 18th 2018, 10:51 pm
  #77  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
They apply to many countries just a British expats apply for jobs abroad. They are not "bought". They are payed the same salaries as British NHS staff obviously.

The countries I happen to know, are certainly not "bereft" of care. There are plenty of "educated, vital young minds" left.
It is neither better or worse just the same qualifications necessary.
Are you "trolling?
I wasn't questioning the quality of care, but whether it is better for the donor and host countries in general, taking into account the loss of the donor in their best and brightest and the loss in the host in the reduced incentive to invest in their own young.

The very fact the NHS can source people from developing countries suppreses the salaries in the NHS for all.
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Old Aug 18th 2018, 10:52 pm
  #78  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

I see more millionaires are joining the billionaire Soros on the anti-democracy stage.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...te-brexit-deal
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Old Aug 18th 2018, 11:11 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
I wasn't questioning the quality of care, but whether it is better for the donor and host countries in general, taking into account the loss of the donor in their best and brightest and the loss in the host in the reduced incentive to invest in their own young.

The very fact the NHS can source people from developing countries suppreses the salaries in the NHS for all.
We have come full circle --to the original poster pointing out that the majority of NHS staff are British.
"donor"---"host"?--- As I said you really are being a little 'silly'.
No one "donates workers" to the NHS!!!! They apply for a job--are accepted---paid the same salary as all others.
The NHS staff coming as migrants have no way of suppressing salaries they want a fair salary, or they will go to the USA or Australia. Read the BMA reports about pay.
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Old Aug 18th 2018, 11:42 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
We have come full circle --to the original poster pointing out that the majority of NHS staff are British.
"donor"---"host"?--- As I said you really are being a little 'silly'.
No one "donates workers" to the NHS!!!! They apply for a job--are accepted---paid the same salary as all others.
The NHS staff coming as migrants have no way of suppressing salaries they want a fair salary, or they will go to the USA or Australia. Read the BMA reports about pay.
Donor and host are basic terms representing the country they left and the country they came to - it's much simpler and entirely appropriate to use donor and host.

They can do nothing but suppress salaries, if the NHS could only source workers from the UK they would have to increase wages to tempt some trained people back into the workforce and incentivise other to train. As it is the NHS doesn't have to pay more because it can source workers from developing countries who are happy to get the pay.
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 12:07 am
  #81  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Donor and host are basic terms representing the country they left and the country they came to - it's much simpler and entirely appropriate to use donor and host.

They can do nothing but suppress salaries, if the NHS could only source workers from the UK they would have to increase wages to tempt some trained people back into the workforce and incentivise other to train. As it is the NHS doesn't have to pay more because it can source workers from developing countries who are happy to get the pay.
Salaries have little to do with the numbers applying to medical schools,they are always over subscribed.
We simply need to increase the capacity of our medical and nursing schools.
IT may have never occurred to you that not everyone is driven by money but instead by a vocation.

You also need to ask yourself looking back at this weeks A level results the high percentage of A and A star if any of those would be motivated by money to take on low skilled but necessary jobs within the NHS .

.
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 12:20 am
  #82  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Donor and host are basic terms representing the country they left and the country they came to - it's much simpler and entirely appropriate to use donor and host.
Not, not really.

Donor implies that the former home gave the medical staff to the UK. Doctors and nurses are not chattel, and not tradable commodities for their home country to parcel out. And host sounds like it's a temporary arrangement in the UK for a specified time, such as a dinner party or a foreign exchange student.

Many of these medics move to the UK to settle. It's a win-win for the NHS and the medics, as the former gets trained medical personnel, and those medical personnel get to make more money in the UK than they would back in their home countries. And the UK government gets taxes from their income and spending.

They can do nothing but suppress salaries, if the NHS could only source workers from the UK they would have to increase wages to tempt some trained people back into the workforce and incentivise other to train. As it is the NHS doesn't have to pay more because it can source workers from developing countries who are happy to get the pay.
The NHS works on salary bands, which apply equally to all Brit, EU and non-EU employees, and are based on qualifications, experience and length of service. Without non-Brit workers, wages won't rise to attract new workers because a) many current nurses have second jobs as 'bank' nurses to pay their bills, and b) the NHS budget has been shrinking in real terms for a long time, and won't get any extra funding to pay higher wages, so any pay increases will hit other areas of the NHS instead.
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 1:29 am
  #83  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Not, not really.

Donor implies that the former home gave the medical staff to the UK. Doctors and nurses are not chattel, and not tradable commodities for their home country to parcel out. And host sounds like it's a temporary arrangement in the UK for a specified time, such as a dinner party or a foreign exchange student.

Many of these medics move to the UK to settle. It's a win-win for the NHS and the medics, as the former gets trained medical personnel, and those medical personnel get to make more money in the UK than they would back in their home countries. And the UK government gets taxes from their income and spending.

The NHS works on salary bands, which apply equally to all Brit, EU and non-EU employees, and are based on qualifications, experience and length of service. Without non-Brit workers, wages won't rise to attract new workers because a) many current nurses have second jobs as 'bank' nurses to pay their bills, and b) the NHS budget has been shrinking in real terms for a long time, and won't get any extra funding to pay higher wages, so any pay increases will hit other areas of the NHS instead.
I know you guys like to argue against anything and everything I ever post, but do try and not be so tiresomely pedantic about perfectly normal word usage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16078798

Physician migration from the developing to developed region of a country or the world occurs for reasons of financial, social, and job satisfaction. It is an old phenomenon that produces many disadvantages for the donor region or nation. The difficulties include inequities with the provision of health services, financial loss, loss of educated families, potential employers, and role models and diminished resources with which to conduct medical education. Staff for undergraduate and postgraduate education is depleted. The critical mass for research and development becomes difficult to achieve or maintain, and these disadvantages are not compensated for adequately by increased contacts, the introduction of new ideas, or financial inflow to the donor region or country. The political will of governments and international organizations regarding treaties about the ethics of physician recruitment is called into question by discrepancies between the text of agreements and the ground realities. Amelioration of this situation requires economic development and imaginative schemes by the donors and, ideally, ethical considerations from recipient governments. At the very least, adequate compensation should be made to the donor country for the gain obtained by the host country.
As usual you fail to understand basic supply & demand economics - if the NHS is unable to recruit sufficient workers from the domestic population it needs to offer better packages to entice those who are trained but have left back into service and to incentivise others to see working in the health sector as desirable and worth training for. The ability to avoid this by importing workers from developing countries allows the NHS to suppress the wages of all NHS staff by restricting annual rises and positions in the bands. They have the wind at their backs by being the monopoly provider of free at point of use health services in the UK.
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 1:37 am
  #84  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Salaries have little to do with the numbers applying to medical schools,they are always over subscribed.
We simply need to increase the capacity of our medical and nursing schools.
IT may have never occurred to you that not everyone is driven by money but instead by a vocation.

You also need to ask yourself looking back at this weeks A level results the high percentage of A and A star if any of those would be motivated by money to take on low skilled but necessary jobs within the NHS .

.
The government have increased the numbers of places available for doctors, but we are also talking about nurses and a range of other practitioners.

Yes, not everyone is driven by money, but it is a hygiene factor for most people.

Probably the 50% or so who don't go on to study A levels.
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 2:17 am
  #85  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
I know you guys like to argue against anything and everything I ever post, but do try and not be so tiresomely pedantic about perfectly normal word usage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16078798



As usual you fail to understand basic supply & demand economics - if the NHS is unable to recruit sufficient workers from the domestic population it needs to offer better packages to entice those who are trained but have left back into service and to incentivise others to see working in the health sector as desirable and worth training for. The ability to avoid this by importing workers from developing countries allows the NHS to suppress the wages of all NHS staff by restricting annual rises and positions in the bands. They have the wind at their backs by being the monopoly provider of free at point of use health services in the UK.
Just because a 2005 American journal uses the same language you do, it doesn't make you right.

You misunderstand the NHS budget. Every year, it has to do more with budget increases of less than inflation, effectively having less money than the previous year. Increasing the pay to attract new hires is going to reduce the budget for other departments, unless the NHS starts being privatised and able to charge patients for services. It's not a coffee outlet who can raise prices to offset it's additional payroll costs.

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
The government have increased the numbers of places available for doctors, but we are also talking about nurses and a range of other practitioners.
Another thing Brexit won't fix....
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 3:57 am
  #86  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
I see more millionaires are joining the billionaire Soros on the anti-democracy stage.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...te-brexit-deal
Untrue

the majority of voters did not vote to leave. The minority are undertaking a hostile reverse take over
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 6:06 am
  #87  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
I didn't say they were.

In general the left support continued mass migration and the theft of the youngest and brightest from other nations.
Ah - so big business, landlords and the elites who like cheap compliant labour and high rents are of the left and the masses who voted for Brexit to control the reserve pool of labour and mass migration are of the right?.
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 7:42 am
  #88  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
I wasn't questioning the quality of care, but whether it is better for the donor and host countries in general, taking into account the loss of the donor in their best and brightest and the loss in the host in the reduced incentive to invest in their own young.
If it pricks the consciences of you Brexiters so badly, why is it that you're all proposing to continue to do just that in future, excluding only those who are not "the best and brightest".
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 8:35 am
  #89  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
There is unemployment in the Philippines for nurses.
India has no problem with doctors traveling abroad, for work or research, many produce children and grandchildren who follow them in the same profession. There is nothing to stop them returning and many do! (They work for a compulsory time in India before leaving).

Yes I agree more should be trained in the UK----it cannot happen overnight.
Yep, it works two ways. Australia and New Zealand has thousands of UK trained nurses - just as the UK has hundreds of antipodean ones. All countries, especially first world ones (which have the resources) should be doing more to train locals. Actually, Britain and Australia should be net exporters of skilled workers, if only the lesser developed countries could do more to encourage skilled immigration to their countries.
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Old Aug 19th 2018, 8:39 am
  #90  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Fredbargate View Post
Sir Nigel to the rescue

Nigel Farage has said he is going "back on the road" to campaign against the prime minister's Brexit plan

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45229426


Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
It needs a successful politiician of his stature to drive the process forward and hold government to account, just like Gina Miller did.


Yep, good old Lord Farage!
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