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Post EU Referendum...Part II

Post EU Referendum...Part II

Old Jun 28th 2020, 11:35 am
  #19756  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

The UK has now spent more money of leaving the EU than it has paid to the EU in all the years it was a member added together.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 12:29 pm
  #19757  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by mikelincs View Post
The UK has now spent more money of leaving the EU than it has paid to the EU in all the years it was a member added together.
Cost overruns, situation normal for this government..... and, likewise, it hasn't been delivered yet.
No doubt it will follow the other tradition of not doing what was claimed for it either..........
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 12:43 pm
  #19758  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

$170 Billion and Counting: The Cost of Brexit for the U.K.

U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson wants to “unleash Britain’s potential.” First the economy has to catch back up with the rest of the world.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 12:52 pm
  #19759  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Some of you will be familiar with Chris Grey's work.

Four years on, we need a whole new Brexit debate
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 1:04 pm
  #19760  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Some of you will be familiar with Chris Grey's work.

Four years on, we need a whole new Brexit debate
Any chance of a TLDR? Skimmed it, if the gist is that we've fulfilled the (dodgy) referendum result, and that the country's opinion has shifted (as confirmed this week in a poll) then I'm all for Labour pursuing a Brexit reversal. Indeed, the majority would be. Difficult with Mop Head and his huge majority though.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 1:16 pm
  #19761  
 
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Any chance of a TLDR? Skimmed it, if the gist is that we've fulfilled the (dodgy) referendum result, and that the country's opinion has shifted (as confirmed this week in a poll) then I'm all for Labour pursuing a Brexit reversal. Indeed, the majority would be. Difficult with Mop Head and his huge majority though.

More like "we've fulfilled the referendum, so the argument about leave vs remain is done". The majority now say they don't support leaving, in which case they, along with everyone else, need to be working on the new relationship without being beaten up by the old "will of the people" stuff.

"The point isn’t that government is about to fall. It’s that it isn’t the hegemon it seemed to be in December. It doesn’t control the terms of debate, including debate about Europe. A different debate is now, for the first time since 2016, at least possible. And, since January, the lashing, quasi-fascist whip of the ‘will of the people’ has lost all of its force as their will has now been done. The question is no longer ‘leave’ or ‘remain’ and indeed in that sense is no longer even about Brexit, but about Britain’s relationship with Europe. Which actually makes a different debate not just possible but, sooner or later, inevitable."
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 1:21 pm
  #19762  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
More like "we've fulfilled the referendum, so the argument about leave vs remain is done". The majority now say they don't support leaving, in which case they, along with everyone else, need to be working on the new relationship without being beaten up by the old "will of the people" stuff.

"The point isn’t that government is about to fall. It’s that it isn’t the hegemon it seemed to be in December. It doesn’t control the terms of debate, including debate about Europe. A different debate is now, for the first time since 2016, at least possible. And, since January, the lashing, quasi-fascist whip of the ‘will of the people’ has lost all of its force as their will has now been done. The question is no longer ‘leave’ or ‘remain’ and indeed in that sense is no longer even about Brexit, but about Britain’s relationship with Europe. Which actually makes a different debate not just possible but, sooner or later, inevitable."
It wasn't difficult to read the whole article, was it?
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 1:23 pm
  #19763  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

But as Mr. Grey points out, any "reversal" is extremely unlikely at this point. There is no "leave" or "remain" anymore. It's only damage control. The government currently seems to be adopting a "scorched earth" policy on the future. This is apparently (polls) not what the majority of voters want, nor is there any mandate for it. But it's the policy of a government that won the last election by more or less a landslide, so that's what the country will have to live with. Until the next election anyway. Merkel is quite right about that.

Boris Johnson threatens to walk away from EU trade talks after Merkel warns UK will ‘live with consequences’ of Brexit

WARNING: Clicking the above link will direct your browser to a sensationalist righwing tabloid website.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 1:28 pm
  #19764  
 
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
It wasn't difficult to read the whole article, was it?

It's very clear and makes an excellent point. I do wonder what the public discussion would be like now if Corona hadn't hit.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 1:35 pm
  #19765  
 
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
But as Mr. Grey points out, any "reversal" is extremely unlikely at this point. There is no "leave" or "remain" anymore. It's only damage control. The government currently seems to be adopting a "scorched earth" policy on the future. This is apparently (polls) not what the majority of voters want, nor is there any mandate for it. But it's the policy of a government that won the last election by more or less a landslide, so that's what the country will have to live with. Until the next election anyway. Merkel is quite right about that.

Boris Johnson threatens to walk away from EU trade talks after Merkel warns UK will ‘live with consequences’ of Brexit

WARNING: Clicking the above link will direct your browser to a sensationalist righwing tabloid website.

No, it can't be reversal. Not now. But I think the point Grey is making is that it needs to be about more than damage control and about more than the ERG backers using the bumbling Johnson to get what they want. All those who want a strong and positive direction with the EU no longer have to argue for that in the terms dictated by the leave campaign, by the right wing of the Tories, or by the Aaron Banks-funded sloganeering.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 1:41 pm
  #19766  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Well put. I have doubts that will happen though.

We'll see. Eric recently pontificated the possibility that somehow, (driven by reality) that Boris will find a way to avoid the crash without it being labelled as "extension" or appearing to betray "the will of the people". It's very much in his personal political interests. And we all know how much value Boris places on that.

Last edited by amideislas; Jun 28th 2020 at 1:47 pm.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 1:48 pm
  #19767  
 
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by amideislas View Post
Well put. I have doubts that will happen though.

We'll see. Eric recently pontificated the possibility that somehow, (driven by reality) that Boris will find a way to avoid the crash without it being labelled as "extension" or appearing to betray "the will of the people". It's very much in his personal political interests. And we all know the value Boris places on that.
Agree that it will be an uphill struggle, but it's the only even vaguely palatable option.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 1:59 pm
  #19768  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Somebody would have to administer oxygen to Dominic. But they have staff for that.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 2:14 pm
  #19769  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
No, it can't be reversal. Not now. But I think the point Grey is making is that it needs to be about more than damage control and about more than the ERG backers using the bumbling Johnson to get what they want. All those who want a strong and positive direction with the EU no longer have to argue for that in the terms dictated by the leave campaign, by the right wing of the Tories, or by the Aaron Banks-funded sloganeering.
Exactly, we've left the EU.

It's no longer Leave v Remain, it's about giving everyone (left and right) a voice in what our trading arrangement with the EU and other countries will be from January. And those voices aren't being heard at present as no deal seems to be the default.

There'll be no referendum on what comes next, nor any referendums on future FTAs, despite the cry of 'taking back control' of 2016.
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Old Jun 28th 2020, 2:17 pm
  #19770  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Exactly, we've left the EU.

It's no longer Leave v Remain, it's about giving everyone (left and right) a voice in what our trading arrangement with the EU and other countries will be from January. And those voices aren't being heard at present as no deal seems to be the default.

There'll be no referendum on what comes next, nor any referendums on future FTAs, despite the cry of 'taking back control' of 2016.
I really don't know what all the fuss is about. Boris & Dom HAVE taken back control and they're not going to let anyone else near it.
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