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Post EU Referendum...Part II

Post EU Referendum...Part II

Old Sep 15th 2018, 6:35 pm
  #1651  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
1) Do you get a bonus every time you encourage people to get UK citizenship?

2) Prior to Brexit, no-one needed to get UK citizenship to maintain their EU rights. Why should they have to apply to keep the same rights the day after Brexit as they had the day before?


3)What EU citizenship?

I presume you mean the rights of a national of an EU member state?



4 )And EU nationals in the UK shouldn't have to apply for yet another document to keep the rights they have.

5) Why should EU nationals be required to take UK nationality. Does it make them more 'entitled'?
1) It's an option, why shouldn't they?

2) There has to be some record that they arrived pre-Brexit that is not the same as "applying".

3) Ask Ami--I was replying to her post and 'wording'.

4) See 3

5) They are not and will not be "required", neither were Commonwealth citizens although many chose to.
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Old Sep 15th 2018, 6:47 pm
  #1652  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by 007Steve View Post
Says it all. (Today's edition - Farage supporting posters in this thread look away)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...itizens-rights
Simple decency should demand concentration on this - but of course as the "negotiations" are with UK, or to be precise, yon English Tory F****** B******* what do you expect.
You deserve everything you're going to lose next year UK....
As we know , ukippers, Faragists and misc others are only too keen for EU migrants in the UK to feel so concerned about their lack of security that they are considering leaving or have left.
The shortages of NHS, Care staff, skilled workers etc they think is a price that the UK should be prepared to pay for their version of Brexit..
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Old Sep 15th 2018, 7:10 pm
  #1653  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Labour's 6 tests like the Tories were pre chequers amount to all the benefits without membership.
As we know the EU will not agree with that so her comment is just smoke and mirrors
Thornbury Corbyn et al are Euro sceptics.
If not why theid attacks on at our Labour members who question their policy.
They are not really interested in the outcome of brexit just seeing it a a means of gaining power....


I follow ALL of the media not just those whose views support mine., do you ?

If you want to read a detailed review of Thorburys latest read the European, not the first few lines off the FT with the rest not accessible unless you have a subscription..
I notice you completely ignored my exhortation not to pile in another load of untruths when answering the very straightforward question I asked you. However, somewhere in there is the answer yes, you do agree that's what Thornberry said, so we're now at the point where we can start discussing the question you put to me yesterday along with a false claim about her utterances. If you're still interested, that is. Are you still interested? I suppose I'd better remind you of the question, what with your short term memory problem :
Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Emily Thornburg shadow foreign secretary has announced that Labour will vote against any Brexit deal , what ever it is.
Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Can Eric tell us, is Labour a no deal party, we know Corbyn is anti EU membership., a second referendum ..
What exactly is Labour's policy, to drive the UK into a no deal with all that implies, the Tory brexiters will be along side them in the lobby.
Are they just gambling on May calling an election, , which labour will lose , then what., what if she does not or is replaced by a Tory hardliner ..


If you thought we were already in the brown stuff, you ain,t seen nothing yet.


By the way, just a wee tip, here. You could still do with slowing down a bit - might avoid unfortunate incidents like this :
Originally Posted by EMR View Post
It does NOT change the fact that currently Labour is not a viable electable alternative to the Tories.
Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Corbyn revels in opposition whereas Blair and others before him wanted to govern..

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
They are not really interested in the outcome of brexit just seeing it a a means of gaining power....
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Old Sep 15th 2018, 8:08 pm
  #1654  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I notice you completely ignored my exhortation not to pile in another load of untruths when answering the very straightforward question I asked you. However, somewhere in there is the answer yes, you do agree that's what Thornberry said, so we're now at the point where we can start discussing the question you put to me yesterday along with a false claim about her utterances. If you're still interested, that is. Are you still interested? I suppose I'd better remind you of the question, what with your short term memory problem :


By the way, just a wee tip, here. You could still do with slowing down a bit - might avoid unfortunate incidents like this :

You really do not like it when your hero worship of the unelectable 1970s Corbyn version of labour is challenged. do you..
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Old Sep 15th 2018, 9:23 pm
  #1655  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
You really do not like it when your hero worship of the unelectable 1970s Corbyn version of labour is challenged. do you..
Still too fast. We haven't got to the bit where I start stating my opinions yet.

We've just (I think ) arrived at a point where we've agreed what it was Emily Thornberry actually said yesterday. It's been very hard work and there's quite a lot of extra stuff we need to discuss afterwards as a result of all the tangents you've shot off at in between.

Before I do actually give you the benefit of the opinion you requested, though, can I ask again if you're still interested in it? Or have you convinced yourself that you already know more of it than I do, to the point where you can not only state my opinions for me but also argue against them, thus rendering my presence redundant?

A short response to only those points stated above will be fine this time.

Thanks
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Old Sep 16th 2018, 12:22 am
  #1656  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
You really do not like it when your hero worship of the unelectable 1970s Corbyn version of labour is challenged. do you..
The first image shows the main UK political parties tendencies from 1972-2006, the second shows the parties at the 2017 General Election.

Labour is back where it used to be before New Labour, but the Tories have drifted to the far-right, yet they're still more electable. That may be because every time Labour seems to have a chance, the Tory-led media repeat the same disproven lies time and time again and some
Labour MPs use this to oust their elected Leader (again). Those MPs want a return to New Labour, who aren't that much to the left of the Tories.

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Old Sep 16th 2018, 8:53 am
  #1657  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
The first image shows the main UK political parties tendencies from 1972-2006, the second shows the parties at the 2017 General Election.

Labour is back where it used to be before New Labour, but the Tories have drifted to the far-right, yet they're still more electable. That may be because every time Labour seems to have a chance, the Tory-led media repeat the same disproven lies time and time again and some
Labour MPs use this to oust their elected Leader (again). Those MPs want a return to New Labour, who aren't that much to the left of the Tories.

Labour as it drifts to the left dies not win elections, unless you are in government you cannot make significant change...
This is what kinnock k reminded the left including Corbyn when they tried to unseat him, an election he won defeating Benn.
Corbyn Labour and that of its pre Kinnock version which it would not surprise me to learn that Corbyn was a supporter off was just as authoritarian in its policies and , counvils jt ran as any Thatcherite Tory .
We are not a country of extremes , only twice in our history has Labour broken through and that was after two world wars.
Blair won because his version appealed to the majority , not just in marginals but across the country..
Brown lost because the libs joined the Tories, when they so easily could have gone into coalition with Labour.

Last edited by EMR; Sep 16th 2018 at 10:34 am.
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Old Sep 16th 2018, 8:08 pm
  #1658  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
As we know , ukippers, Faragists and misc others are only too keen for EU migrants in the UK to feel so concerned about their lack of security that they are considering leaving or have left.
You "know" nothing of the sort - pure supposition and bigotry.
The shortages of NHS, Care staff, skilled workers etc they think is a price that the UK should be prepared to pay for their version of Brexit..
An incentive to pay more to attract existing UK residents to be able to afford to take the jobs, rather than continue to suppress wages via importation of cheaper labour.
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Old Sep 16th 2018, 8:22 pm
  #1659  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
You "know" nothing of the sort - pure supposition and bigotry.
An incentive to pay more to attract existing UK residents to be able to afford to take the jobs, rather than continue to suppress wages via importation of cheaper labour.
Really given you share skips policy on immigration I would not expect anything less from you..
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Old Sep 16th 2018, 9:08 pm
  #1660  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
Really given you share skips policy on immigration I would not expect anything less from you..
The bush kangaroo?
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Old Sep 16th 2018, 9:41 pm
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
You "know" nothing of the sort - pure supposition and bigotry.
An incentive to pay more to attract existing UK residents to be able to afford to take the jobs, rather than continue to suppress wages via importation of cheaper labour.
Your Pardon Guv, but a mere carbon-unit suggests that cutting tax & NI to 50% in the 1st year of employment, then 25% in the second, and a final 10% in the third, PLUS full reimbursement of travel costs by employers if they don't have apprenticeships or registered training courses, would go a long way to putting money in peoples' pockets while helping employers train and keep long-term employees, while gradually forcing those who abuse the UK's low wage economy out of the market.
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Old Sep 17th 2018, 8:36 am
  #1662  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by 007Steve View Post
Your Pardon Guv, but a mere carbon-unit suggests that cutting tax & NI to 50% in the 1st year of employment, then 25% in the second, and a final 10% in the third, PLUS full reimbursement of travel costs by employers if they don't have apprenticeships or registered training courses, would go a long way to putting money in peoples' pockets while helping employers train and keep long-term employees, while gradually forcing those who abuse the UK's low wage economy out of the market.
It's a possibility, but leaves the exchequer subsidising companies and creates a shortfall in tax income for the NHS etc. You'd also find people getting re-employed every year or so.

The reality is that in a market-based economy the dichotomy of bargaining power between capital and labour is the key problem and a reduction in the supply of labour will enable a rebalancing.
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Old Sep 17th 2018, 10:08 am
  #1663  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
It's a possibility, but leaves the exchequer subsidising companies and creates a shortfall in tax income for the NHS etc. You'd also find people getting re-employed every year or so.

The reality is that in a market-based economy the dichotomy of bargaining power between capital and labour is the key problem and a reduction in the supply of labour will enable a rebalancing.
Whether directly paying workers tax credits and/or housing benefit and council tax benefits, or paying employers to pass these onto employees, let's call it what it is, subsidising employers..... But without those subsidies, most businesses using unskilled workers would go under very quickly if they had to pay every employee an extra £400+ per month to replace those tax credits and benefits. Or raise prices beyond what the market will accept.
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Old Sep 17th 2018, 11:32 am
  #1664  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Whether directly paying workers tax credits and/or housing benefit and council tax benefits, or paying employers to pass these onto employees, let's call it what it is, subsidising employers..... But without those subsidies, most businesses using unskilled workers would go under very quickly if they had to pay every employee an extra £400+ per month to replace those tax credits and benefits. Or raise prices beyond what the market will accept.
It is subsidising employers and we should stop doing it - if their companies go under then go under they should because they are not an economic entity.

In reality some will raise their prices, others will automate, other will product-substitute for less labour-intensive products.

Ditto with the farmers.
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Old Sep 17th 2018, 1:07 pm
  #1665  
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Default Re: Post EU Referendum...Part II

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
It is subsidising employers and we should stop doing it - if their companies go under then go under they should because they are not an economic entity.

In reality some will raise their prices, others will automate, other will product-substitute for less labour-intensive products.

Ditto with the farmers.
Excellent!

Businesses going under = fewer jobs.
Automate = fewer jobs, more profit.
Less labour-intensive products = fewer jobs, more profit.

Employers get richer while more workers are dumped on. What we have now isn't perfect, but yours is worse.

All those that have lost jobs will require unemployment benefits and housing+ct benefits. Which cost more than the current system.
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