British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

morpeth Jan 12th 2017 9:50 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12149738)
As I said above Indians had education long before Britain existed as Britain.

There were French and Portuguese in India.

Read some history ---the many millions who died in the 16 great famines due to the poverty caused by taxation (to fund the UK) the land and assets stripped.
Even the educated "elite" had no personal possessions just land to support themselves.

Immigrants to the UK probably not, nor British immigrants to India.

Should we congratulate the Britain who took over the colonies had slaves, exploited populations all because they were better at making and using weapons. Surely we should be pleased that we are now 'better than that'!

(You are constantly criticising others as racist----
your views that colonisation was good for the illiterate little brown people and they should be grateful----????)

There were obvious benefits to British rule in India, as there were negatives as well. One can have a reasoned debate ( without throwing in the race card)but hardly can one deny the obvious benefits of British rule if one is objective.

It is not whether education existed in India, but what type and whether an education that was necessary for India to progress into the modern world. And whether that education was traditionally available to both men and women, and did not the British end some abhorrent social practices? As far as Indian culture itself, did not British academics help in the recovery and study of ancient Indian culture ?

The "educated elite had no personal possessions only land to support themselves" I do not understand what you mean by this ? Many great Indian industrial fortunes had their roots in the second half of the 19th century. I know of two families I know very well who were not part of landed elite but built up successful businesses that have styed in their families, they certainly had personal possessions in the period you speak of !

Throughout history ( until the British and Americans collaborated to end the slave trade) there has been slavery across continents, and empires created that to one degree or another exploited countries conquered. The only reason it seems consideration of the negatives of British colonialism is so strong is a kind of reverse racism- more is expected of Britain , but not of countries in Asia or Africa that did the same and maybe worse.

I do not recall that India before the British was a hotbed of rapid economic progress, with world-class scientific developments being commercialized, (with social injustices being addressed) that would have led to the type of economic development that India is now realizing.

How you describe British India seems like you are describing the Belgian Congo, or Namibia under the Germans.

Red Eric Jan 12th 2017 9:59 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12149795)
Yes, we know that there is a whole world outside of Europe. Imagine that. We all know that in future these countries will become more and more important to us....that was big news about 20 years ago. We (especailly Germany) are already trading with these countries big time. Thanks for trying to illuminate us Europeans. Maybe you, in turn, can now also understand that the whole world does comprise a lot more countries than only India.

:goodpost: Like you, I'm not sure why India has been featuring so heavily on these threads. Nonetheless, Bipat will no doubt be pleased to hear that Portugal is currently on the lookout for increased trade and closer ties with India. The only European PM of Indian descent is currently on an official visit, drumming up some mutual agreements.

DigitalGhost Jan 12th 2017 10:08 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Boiler (Post 12149411)
OMG:lol:

I know, I don't think you could make this up if you tried.

DaveLovesDee Jan 12th 2017 10:11 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12149796)
There were obvious benefits to British rule in India, as there were negatives as well.

There are benefits to the UK through both EU and non-EU migration, but certain sections of the media and some politicians only like to focus on the negatives.

We've exported many of our elderly to other European countries, and imported usually-younger and fitter Europeans who want to work and pay taxes.

Bipat keeps going on about EU nationals could fill in a visa application easily enough post-Brexit, but why would they want to (or to pay £600+ to apply with no guarantee of getting one, when they'll still have the rest of the EU in which to freely live and work.


How you describe British India seems like you are describing the Belgian Congo, or Namibia under the Germans.
Or any other country invaded or colonised by another country.

DaveLovesDee Jan 12th 2017 10:14 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12149805)
:goodpost: Like you, I'm not sure why India has been featuring so heavily on these threads. Nonetheless, Bipat will no doubt be pleased to hear that Portugal is currently on the lookout for increased trade and closer ties with India. The only European PM of Indian descent is currently on an official visit, drumming up some mutual agreements.

And if Portugal can put together mutual trade agreements with India while still an EU member, why do we have to leave to make similar agreements?

morpeth Jan 12th 2017 10:28 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12149733)
The British were there a hundred years, obviously local people were involved in administration, they had to earn money to live!
They were involved in all areas. As I have said before there were often good relationships 'on the ground'. It was the Government back in Britain who ruled all and insisted on apartheid.

The same would probably have happened in th UK, if Germany had invaded in WW1 the british would have cooperated in administration.

Agree that the changes in the law and the Parliamentary system have been useful, as I have pointed out education was there in India when the British were still in caves!

What would have happened to India without a 100 years of foreign rule is impossible to know.
UK a hundred years ago was quite different to now.

Transportation would surely have developed without the British if they had had the freedom to do it. The British built the railways for their own selves.

"Economic growth under the British"?
I think you should ask the question would British economic growth have been the same without the colonies.
There was 80-90% dire poverty in India when the British left. Are you saying we should praise the British for that?

Railways take capital, for example the US railway development in the 19th century was partially if not mainly financed by the British. Would there have been such a development in India without the British ? I haven't studied the period before British rule in any detail but like many Third World countries there wasn't an excess surplus with a political and economic organizational structure that promoted growth as that which occurred in the UK. "surely developed" in India ? - without the capital or the advancements in metallurgy and steam engines etc ?

--In any case why the British built the railroads is less important than they did.

Again the issue is what type of education, for whom and how many. There was education in Roman times, and the centuries afterwards to a certain degree, but I would think the development of the modern university system distinctly different that what came before in Europe or elsewhere.

Some colonies were profitable for Britain some were not. Certainly Britain made more money from investment and trade with America and Argentina in the 19th century that it did from many of her colonies. How much the colonies contributed to Britain's industrial revolution, the roots of which were before extensive colonization is a good question.

Was there less poverty before British colonialization than at the end ? I don't know. Without looking at the particular economic history from several sources I am not sure there is an easy answer.

In any case the advancement of the Indian economy the last 20 to 30 years through increased economic liberalization and highly-qualified Indian professionals in many fields bodes well for India to become a major world power and to further reduce poverty which does remain dire among some sections of the population. A level of poverty that most in the West have never encountered.

I am unsure why the history of British colonization in India has relevance to current debates about what are beneficial policies of immigration/migration to the UK today going forward.

morpeth Jan 12th 2017 10:39 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12149820)
There are benefits to the UK through both EU and non-EU migration, but certain sections of the media and some politicians only like to focus on the negatives.

We've exported many of our elderly to other European countries, and imported usually-younger and fitter Europeans who want to work and pay taxes.

Bipat keeps going on about EU nationals could fill in a visa application easily enough post-Brexit, but why would they want to (or to pay £600+ to apply with no guarantee of getting one, when they'll still have the rest of the EU in which to freely live and work.



Or any other country invaded or colonised by another country.

There were distinct differences in the colonial philosophy of the different colonizing countries. For example in the Belgian Congo their philosophy in developing education of the locals was to emphasize building the education from the elementary level first, whereas in the French colonies in Africa on a per capita basis there were more university graduates at independence. The French had a different view of what constituted locals becoming French through becoming French by adaptation of culture, very different as I am sure Bipat would agree to the British approach in India. ( My father was in British India and he was appalled by the apartheid-like rules or informal practices, though others in my family there during the time thought they were necessary).

All I am saying is that reality of the colonial period was somewhat different depending on the colonial power.

Bipat Jan 12th 2017 10:41 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12149796)
There were obvious benefits to British rule in India, as there were negatives as well. One can have a reasoned debate ( without throwing in the race card)but hardly can one deny the obvious benefits of British rule if one is objective.

It is not whether education existed in India, but what type and whether an education that was necessary for India to progress into the modern world. And whether that education was traditionally available to both men and women, and did not the British end some abhorrent social practices? As far as Indian culture itself, did not British academics help in the recovery and study of ancient Indian culture ?

The "educated elite had no personal possessions only land to support themselves" I do not understand what you mean by this ? Many great Indian industrial fortunes had their roots in the second half of the 19th century. I know of two families I know very well who were not part of landed elite but built up successful businesses that have styed in their families, they certainly had personal possessions in the period you speak of !

Throughout history ( until the British and Americans collaborated to end the slave trade) there has been slavery across continents, and empires created that to one degree or another exploited countries conquered. The only reason it seems consideration of the negatives of British colonialism is so strong is a kind of reverse racism- more is expected of Britain , but not of countries in Asia or Africa that did the same and maybe worse.

I do not recall that India before the British was a hotbed of rapid economic progress, with world-class scientific developments being commercialized, (with social injustices being addressed) that would have led to the type of economic development that India is now realizing.

How you describe British India seems like you are describing the Belgian Congo, or Namibia under the Germans.

I agree there were some good points of Indian rule, as I have said largely due to those 'on the ground' having respect for the local people and working with them rather than ruling them---all were ruled by the 'home' goverments.

You knew two families! Probably the elite I am speaking of are lower down the scale than yours--the lawers, doctors etc. However they were also a minority of the general population.

Economic developement without the British? What was Britain like in the 18 and 19th centuries the work-houses, the social inequality, illiteracy, poverty etc. The poor of the UK were not helped by the takings from the Colonies it was the growth of socialism that helped that. (Another topic.:lol::)

GeniB Jan 12th 2017 10:50 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12149791)
Profound apologies.
However it is relevant to the discussion when those who are pro-remain in the EU, refer to those who view trade with the rest of the world as more important for the future; are described as Xenophobic.

Yes we joined 'the club' but we are now leaving, whether this was the right decision is now irrelevant. It is the future that is important and as I have said there is a lot of world outside of the EU countries--including the rest of Europe.


Your right .It is the future that is important and thats the point of this post EU referendum discussion.
For me it's about the appalling (so far) handling of the exercise. All this unfortunate 'dissing' of the soon to be ex-partner does us no good in the world of trade where trust is paramount
If we can do this to our trading partners for no good reason that i can see. Why on earth would the rest of the world take us on? Why would they trust us?

GeniB Jan 12th 2017 10:54 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12149805)
:goodpost: Like you, I'm not sure why India has been featuring so heavily on these threads. Nonetheless, Bipat will no doubt be pleased to hear that Portugal is currently on the lookout for increased trade and closer ties with India. The only European PM of Indian descent is currently on an official visit, drumming up some mutual agreements.


Well Portugal does have some very strong connections to India. Goa in particular

People forget that they brought spices back to Europe. and gave the Indian continent chillies.(god bless them) They also gave the Japanese tempura ,but that's another story,:starsmile:

Bipat Jan 12th 2017 10:54 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12149805)
:goodpost: Like you, I'm not sure why India has been featuring so heavily on these threads. Nonetheless, Bipat will no doubt be pleased to hear that Portugal is currently on the lookout for increased trade and closer ties with India. The only European PM of Indian descent is currently on an official visit, drumming up some mutual agreements.

I have tried to correct misinformation regarding India because it is 'home', just as those expats in USA frequently mention USA and even start threads!

Portugal was very good to the people of Goa, they gave Portuguese citizenship to all who paid the price by converting to Christianity and that still applies to those who registered their children at birth as Portuguese.

(Won't go into what they did to those who refused to convert!)

Unfortunately for UK, the chief politician they got from Goa was Keith Vaz:lol:

DigitalGhost Jan 12th 2017 10:58 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12149825)
And if Portugal can put together mutual trade agreements with India while still an EU member, why do we have to leave to make similar agreements?

Very, very good question. Portugal are far more tied into the EU mantra than the UK has ever been or will ever be and is also a far less important economy on the global and EU stage.

Bipat Jan 12th 2017 11:06 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by GeniB (Post 12149852)
Well Portugal does have some very strong connections to India. Goa in particular

People forget that they brought spices back to Europe. and gave the Indian continent chillies.(god bless them) They also gave the Japanese tempura ,but that's another story,:starsmile:

It was just the area now the State of Goa. OH's community originally from Kashmir lived there, fled during the Inquisition and the forced conversions, libraries and documents burned--yes they had libraries Morpeth!

As I said above Portugal remained good to those who became Christians and accepted those who registered, as Portuguese citizens and still do.

Now the coastal strip is developed as a tourist area with plenty of British expats settled there.

GeniB Jan 12th 2017 11:09 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12149857)
Very, very good question. Portugal are far more tied into the EU mantra than the UK has ever been or will ever be and is also a far less important economy on the global and EU stage.


Beg to differ Portugal has made sure that many of it's ex-leaders are now in position of power throughout the world. Using diplomacy . It's economy was actually the only one in Europe , in real terms, that grew last year and the year before. It's true it's a tiny player (10million people ) but then so was the UK in the past, relative to the countries around .

It's influence that counts. Portugal is busy making friends and influencing people.
You show little information on that subject

Bipat Jan 12th 2017 11:11 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12149825)
And if Portugal can put together mutual trade agreements with India while still an EU member, why do we have to leave to make similar agreements?

We don't have to leave, as you know we have plenty of trade agreements outside of the EU, but free trade agreements will happen post Brexit and obviously Commonwealth countries that we have links with will be important.


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