British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

BEVS Jul 6th 2016 6:50 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 11995077)
The point this makes (and in defence of my view that Britain has until now enjoyed a global significance far greater than the sum of it's parts) is that unlike the grandiose vision of a big, powerful, "flourishing" post-brexit "Great Britain", the actual reality is that having shed those things which make Britain important on the global stage, we will now be measured much more by the sum of the parts alone.

And if you count up the sum of those parts alone, and compare it to the rest of G7 for example, Britain's future footprint starts to look pretty questionable.

And besides, Britain will be preoccupied with it's domestic agenda and it's detanglement from Europe for the foreseeable future.

.........and you also may find this select committee Q&A interesting & informative as I am sure Bipat will also. Actually for anyone with a real interest in how this is now going to unfold both for UK internal affairs and also on the global stage.

This is with thanks to Snowy of the Canada forum that posted it up in the first place. I might have missed this down in NZ if it were not for this person.

Red Eric Jul 6th 2016 6:50 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 11995073)

Rather ironic, when today we will be discussing the Chilcot Report.
Worth its own thread IMVHO

It's here http://britishexpats.com/forum/take-...eport-877226/: :)

Red Eric Jul 6th 2016 6:52 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 11994779)
Yes I do believe strongly in an equal ops immigration policy and very much hope it comes to pass. :cool:

Wouldn't involve "closer ties" with a select subset of Commonwealth countries, would it by any chance?

You might be disappointed. This isn't 1960s Australia.

Bipat Jul 6th 2016 6:53 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 11995069)
This confused me to start with, perhaps because of the bolded type.

I'm not sure why you have done this. It is clear that what was meant was that the UK has become a less attractive place all round for those individuals from overseas - as in non home grown - who may have thought to live and work in the UK or are already living and working in the UK.

Bevs, I have to disagree.
The posts of some Remainers seem to view the 'world' as consisting of just 'Europe'. The frequent mention of the 'Empire', the belittling of increased trade with the rest of the world (on another thread).

I know Nigel Farage stirred up those in the UK who had racist views, but they were already there, they have always been there. Unfortunately they always will be.
Read the comments of the Chair person of the Brexit Campaign --Gisela Stewart. (She is of German origin).

The Brexit plan was equal rules for EU and non EU immigrants. (It is the latter who in the last war and since the last war helped the UK economy to survive. A points system similar to the Australian system was suggested,
what would be the problem with that?

Immigrants from Europe have been living and working in the UK long before UK was a member of the EU, do you really think this will change?

amideislas Jul 6th 2016 7:12 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly (Post 11994896)
Nothing has done more to further the cause of the far right than the EU and its policies.

You only have to look at the recent rise of an effective far right party in Germany to see that or alternatively their not so friendly neighbours Austria who came within a whisker of electing a far right president and may yet do so.

Similar trends throughout the EU caused by Merkels open door immigration policy and threats to the democratic self rule of other countries.

The EU on its present course is a clear recipe for disaster.:cool:

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the rise of the far right (and extremism in general) isn't simply a British or European thing. As someone who hails the dawn of a new "outward looking" era for Britain, perhaps you might take a look across the pond or down under.

The trend toward insularity isn't exclusive to Britain, nor is it the result of the EU. It's actually down to fear and misunderstanding of globalisation, ironically, the very thing that's facilitated us all to enjoy our mutual prosperity in this increasingly complex world. Across the globe, not just Britain. And not just the EU.

The article I offered, which you apparently dismissed, elaborates on that very topic. You really ought to have a look before flippantly blaming everything on the EU.

amideislas Jul 6th 2016 7:13 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 11995083)
.........and you also may find this select committee Q&A interesting & informative as I am sure Bipat will also. Actually for anyone with a real interest in how this is now going to unfold both for UK internal affairs and also on the global stage.

This is with thanks to Snowy of the Canada forum that posted it up in the first place. I might have missed this down in NZ if it were not for this person.

Yes, I intend to. Thank you for that.

Bipat Jul 6th 2016 7:33 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by GeniB (Post 11995076)
One again YOU show your true colours Bipat .

You have a chip the size of the sub continent (and sorry if that description offends you as well it's a known Geographic term)

Nowhere did I mention any particular race,ethnicity etc in my term 'Not attractive to talented immigrants' .YOU simple joined the dots to suit your own biased opinion. Please stop looking to be offended

No "chip", I have the best of two 'worlds'.

I did not mention race/ethnicity either just "non-EU migrants", which you said would still be coming, but not the "talented" immigrants.

As Bevs has said, you probably didn't mean it to 'read' as it did, if this is so apologies for misinterpreting.

Fredbargate Jul 6th 2016 9:06 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 11995084)

It isn't

JACHA Jul 6th 2016 9:07 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Bipat The trouble with the points system is that it is usually applied to what skills a person has. If you wanted to migrate to Australia you must have skills to get a job and the occupation must be where there are skills shortages. Sadly the jobs we have a shortage in are occupations that are low skilled.
The ten pound poms of days gone by and the low skilled workers who were largely responsible for building the Snowy Mountains dams could not get into Australia now.
All the migration that we have had over the years have made Australia the great place it is today. Before anyone comments on our current system of turning the boats back or paying the people smugglers to take the people back I am personally ashamed that our government has this policy.

Bipat Jul 6th 2016 9:14 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by JACHA (Post 11995180)
Bipat The trouble with the points system is that it is usually applied to what skills a person has. If you wanted to migrate to Australia you must have skills to get a job and the occupation must be where there are skills shortages. Sadly the jobs we have a shortage in are occupations that are low skilled.
The ten pound poms of days gone by and the low skilled workers who were largely responsible for building the Snowy Mountains dams could not get into Australia now.
All the migration that we have had over the years have made Australia the great place it is today. Before anyone comments on our current system of turning the boats back or paying the people smugglers to take the people back I am personally ashamed that our government has this policy.

I see what you mean but that is the point of the system it can be adjusted according to needs.
As at the moment there is a shortage of NHS workers doctors and nurses just one example.
Where as there is unemployment in the UK of unskilled people.

amideislas Jul 6th 2016 9:26 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 11995083)
.........and you also may find this select committee Q&A interesting & informative as I am sure Bipat will also. Actually for anyone with a real interest in how this is now going to unfold both for UK internal affairs and also on the global stage.

This is with thanks to Snowy of the Canada forum that posted it up in the first place. I might have missed this down in NZ if it were not for this person.

Well, I got through about half of it so far, and all I can say at this point is... well, I can't find words to describe the complexity of this. It's truly mind-boggling.

Much of the task ahead is legally and constitutionally paradoxical - if we do this, then it violates that, and to avoid violating that, then you have to open this other can of worms, and that means violating another thing, and to avoid that .....

There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of examples of where huge swaths of UK law will have to be completely re-written from the ground up, or else leave gaping holes in broad aspects of law. You can't just copy and paste existing law, as so much of it is dependent on, or explicitly references one aspect or another of our obligations under EU treaties, which will no longer apply, and will leave those areas of law completely unenforceable.

And constitutionally, many, if not most will require both parliament and the will of the people to achieve that, so we could be faced with referendum after referendum until we have these things settled. The CAP, is just one example of where UK policy will have to be re-written from scratch, a task which represents literally years of legal assessment and debate in government at all levels, and also will very likely constitutionally require public referendums on a wide range of issues related to this one aspect alone.

Just invoking article 50 has huge legal and constitutional implications. It's extremely complex, and will likely end up in the courts for the foreseeable future. And following that, there are many years of the aforementioned lawmaking that will need to be formalised before any exit can be realised.

That's presuming article 50 is ever invoked, which opens another huge can of worms. The referendum may not be legally binding, but there is an inherent and very serious political and constitutional risk in not invoking it. And the longer it goes before it is invoked, the higher the risk. Plus, it's absolutely imperative we sort out most or all of the aforementioned before doing so. Another nasty paradox.

It appears this entire episode is going to require the bulk of attention from virtually all of Britain's best legal and parliamentary resources for the better part of a decade, if not more. And even then, as a practical matter, after all of that, we may very well end up in a very similar position with respect to the EU as we are now.

I highly recommend watching this to everyone. It's full of legalese so it requires a great deal of attention, but perhaps we can finally begin to understand the sheer magnitude of the pandora's box we've just opened.

JACHA Jul 6th 2016 9:27 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Bipat. The points are never adjusted. You either meet or you don't. There is no flexibility and if one person doesn't meet then all fail.
I don't know the answers to the immigration issues and wouldn't know where to start but sadly we now have politicians who were successful in the election on the weekend who openly say they don't want people of certain nationally and that concerns me.
Oh well will just refill my glass. Maybe after the second glass of wine the world won't seem to be in such a mess.

Bipat Jul 6th 2016 9:49 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by JACHA (Post 11995193)
Bipat. The points are never adjusted. You either meet or you don't. There is no flexibility and if one person doesn't meet then all fail.
I don't know the answers to the immigration issues and wouldn't know where to start but sadly we now have politicians who were successful in the election on the weekend who openly say they don't want people of certain nationally and that concerns me.
Oh well will just refill my glass. Maybe after the second glass of wine the world won't seem to be in such a mess.

It was just a suggestion by the Brexit campaign, it doesn't have to be exactly the same as the Australian system. UK already has a skills based visa system for Non-EU immigrants.
The Brexit idea was to make it the same system for all immigrants.
As you say politicians mess things up for their own agendas.

Yes the world is in a mess, unfortunately we are genetically closer related to the aggressive chimpanzee rather than the kindly orangutan. (I have always admired the Australian Peter Singer, may be we can start an animal rights thread:lol:)

As you say there is always the wine.:lol:

GeniB Jul 6th 2016 11:26 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by BEVS (Post 11995079)
So. What did you mean ? As BiPat has taken it to mean something that I personally did not see , however that is not to say that I saw it correctly either. We could both be interpreting wrongly.

If you could expand or rephrase that would help.


Just gave you a lengthy reply,but it got zapped durh :eek:

The shortened version.

I actually don't quite know either what Bipat is seeing in my post?

My guess is that it's about arguing from the point of view of someone from outside the EU? wishing to be treated the same as someone from inside the EU
and feeling annoyed that the two situations are not treated the same.? perhaps?

I am on a thread about 'Post Brexit' which naturally pertains to the EU. My comments about the UK no longer being quite so attractive to EU members,mean't just that.Members of the EU countries of all colours,creeds, religions (I can't think of anymore descriptions) because of the attitude shown towards them.and of course of the vote.

I also went on to say 'the vote' would have zero effect upon the None EU immigrants that continue to 'flood'? into the UK. The immigrants in fact which many leavers quoted as a reason for their voting leave.?

Which just goes to show how utterly dumb it was of Cameron to call this referendum in the first place.

GeniB Jul 6th 2016 11:29 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 11995192)
Well, I got through about half of it so far, and all I can say at this point is... well, I can't find words to describe the complexity of this. It's truly mind-boggling.

Much of the task ahead is legally and constitutionally paradoxical - if we do this, then it violates that, and to avoid violating that, then you have to open this other can of worms, and that means violating another thing, and to avoid that .....

There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of examples of where huge swaths of UK law will have to be completely re-written from the ground up, or else leave gaping holes in broad aspects of law. You can't just copy and paste existing law, as so much of it is dependent on, or explicitly references one aspect or another of our obligations under EU treaties, which will no longer apply, and will leave those areas of law completely unenforceable.

And constitutionally, many, if not most will require both parliament and the will of the people to achieve that, so we could be faced with referendum after referendum until we have these things settled. The CAP, is just one example of where UK policy will have to be re-written from scratch, a task which represents literally years of legal assessment and debate in government at all levels, and also will very likely constitutionally require public referendums on a wide range of issues related to this one aspect alone.

Just invoking article 50 has huge legal and constitutional implications. It's extremely complex, and will likely end up in the courts for the foreseeable future. And following that, there are many years of the aforementioned lawmaking that will need to be formalised before any exit can be realised.

That's presuming article 50 is ever invoked, which opens another huge can of worms. The referendum may not be legally binding, but there is an inherent and very serious political and constitutional risk in not invoking it. And the longer it goes before it is invoked, the higher the risk. Plus, it's absolutely imperative we sort out most or all of the aforementioned before doing so. Another nasty paradox.

It appears this entire episode is going to require the bulk of attention from virtually all of Britain's best legal and parliamentary resources for the better part of a decade, if not more. And even then, as a practical matter, after all of that, we may very well end up in a very similar position with respect to the EU as we are now.

I highly recommend watching this to everyone. It's full of legalese so it requires a great deal of attention, but perhaps we can finally begin to understand the sheer magnitude of the pandora's box we've just opened.


And I SO WISH the UK public had been made to sit down and watch it BEFORE the vote.:eek:


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