British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

EMR Nov 5th 2016 6:08 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by lutonlad (Post 12096626)
Another thing you can thank DC for.
He's screwed the country rigid.
Hope he sleeps well at night and rakes in lots of dosh - NOT.

Farage ain,t doing so badly for a failure is he.

mfesharne Nov 5th 2016 6:17 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12096629)
c

The referendum was advisory. It obliged the government to do nothing and May is not claiming that it does, she is claiming royal prerogative which is also a part of our constitution. The court has ruled that this is a Parliamentary matter not covered by royal prerogative.

Having said that, again other than in tabloids nobody is seriously proposing that Parliament reverse the result of the referendum.

What constitution would that be?

Perhaps you could provide a link?

Or then again, you might prefer to read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consti...United_Kingdom

That aside, whilst the vote itself was advisory the pre referendum debate promised the vote would be honoured whichever way it went. DC also promised the same thing on several occasions & the info pack said the same but as you say: "nobody is seriously proposing that Parliament reverse the result of the referendum"

In which case what is there to debate when no negotiations can begin until after A50 has been triggered & currently it can't be triggered until it's been debated?

Perhaps your words might be more accurate if they'd been: 'nobody is seriously proposing that Parliament reverse the result of the referendum YET!'

The terms chicken, egg & possible tuck up spring to mind.

EMR Nov 5th 2016 6:26 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12096637)
What constitution would that be?

Perhaps you could provide a link?

Or then again, you might prefer to read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consti...United_Kingdom

That aside, whilst the vote itself was advisory the pre referendum debate promised the vote would be honoured whichever way it went. DC also promised the same thing on several occasions & the info pack said the same but as you say: "nobody is seriously proposing that Parliament reverse the result of the referendum"

In which case what is there to debate when no negotiations can begin until after A50 has been triggered & currently it can't be triggered until it's been debated?

Perhaps your words might be more accurate if they'd been: 'nobody is seriously proposing that Parliament reverse the result of the referendum YET!'

The terms chicken, egg & possible tuck up spring to mind.

Confused again I see, a debate , discussion etc has no legal powers or authority to enact anything..
The vote will be on the triggering article 50, do you really think that the government will lose, if so why ?

la mancha Nov 5th 2016 6:38 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12096629)
c

The referendum was advisory. It obliged the government to do nothing and May is not claiming that it does, she is claiming royal prerogative which is also a part of our constitution. The court has ruled that this is a Parliamentary matter not covered by royal prerogative.

Having said that, again other than in tabloids nobody is seriously proposing that Parliament reverse the result of the referendum.

But can they vote not to trigger A50?

EMR Nov 5th 2016 6:42 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12096644)
But can they vote not to trigger A50?

Of course they can if enough tories vote against the government and every other MP votes against it as well.
Anything is possible.
I could win the lottery tonight . Anything is possible.f

la mancha Nov 5th 2016 6:44 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12096647)
Of course they can if enough tories vote against the government and every other MP votes against it as well.
Anything is possible.
I could win the lottery tonight . Anything is possible.f

Then what happens?

EMR Nov 5th 2016 6:48 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12096650)
Then what happens?

May calls a general election as it is in effect a vote of confidence in her government.
As for my lottery win, I will be upgrading our flights for our next holiday.

la mancha Nov 5th 2016 6:51 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 
That's what I thought. Then every voter will know which way their candidate voted. Bring it on!

Lion in Winter Nov 5th 2016 7:11 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12096644)
But can they vote not to trigger A50?

If they wanted to trigger a constitutional crisis and total chaos in the government, I believe yes - because the referendum was advisory, not binding. It seems very unlikely, however.

But we got into the EU through passage of law through Parliament. It would seem to be a very bad idea to allow government to overturn law without Parliament and allow that precedent to be set. Parliament is there to create stability and protect us from autocratic, authoritarian moves by the few. I'm not sure why anyone would want that protection removed.

Lion in Winter Nov 5th 2016 7:22 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12096530)
I'd be interested to know on what evidence you base that statement? because it's nothing more than idle speculation but the difference is the Pre Brexit the UK is bound by EU laws which they can do nothing about (as has been increasingly proved as every year has gone by) whereas the post Brexit UK will be able to change it's laws as it wants to without any outside interference.

So your contention is that the underfunding of the NHS, the lack of affordable housing, the failure of state education to educate all to a functional standard, youth homelessness and toxic drug addiction, and the lack of economic investment and opportunity in some parts of the country are all due to our EU membership and the British government was prevented from addressing any of it because EU-imposed laws prevented them?

mfesharne Nov 5th 2016 7:29 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter (Post 12096662)
If they wanted to trigger a constitutional crisis and total chaos in the government, I believe yes - because the referendum was advisory, not binding. It seems very unlikely, however.

But we got into the EU through passage of law through Parliament. It would seem to be a very bad idea to allow government to overturn law without Parliament and allow that precedent to be set. Parliament is there to create stability and protect us from autocratic, authoritarian moves by the few. I'm not sure why anyone would want that protection removed.

Hmmmmm...... that raises a good point (or several) but one could argue we got into what evolved into the EU following a (presumably advisory?) referendum that directed the Govt of the day to join.

Parliament is indeed there to protect us but it is also there to obey the will of the people which is why they're called our elected representatives rather than our rulers.

Let's also remember there are two basic sides to it and a referendum is British democracy by the principle of majority rule where the electorate vote & direct it's representatives & the other is British Parliamentary rule where Parliament debates & passes laws....... and the two shouldn't be confused with each other.

In the case in point we're talking British Democracy where the electorate have made the decision already...... hence the term; 'The People Have Spoken'

And as I said before I wonder how Parliament can delay the triggering of A50 until they've debated the exit deal when exit deal negotiations can only begin after A50 is triggered?

As it says in the old comedy show SOAP; "Confused....... you will be" etc. :(

EMR Nov 5th 2016 7:32 pm

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12096671)
Hmmmmm...... that raises a good point (or several) but one could argue we got into what evolved into the EU following a (presumably advisory?) referendum that directed the Govt of the day to join.

Parliament is indeed there to protect us but it is also there to obey the will of the people which is why they're called our elected representatives rather than our rulers.

Let's also remember there are two basic sides to it and a referendum is British democracy by the principle of majority rule where the electorate vote & direct it's representatives & the other is British Parliamentary rule where Parliament debates & passes laws....... and the two shouldn't be confused with each other.

In the case in point we're talking British Democracy where the electorate have made the decision already...... hence the term; 'The People Have Spoken'

And as I said before I wonder how Parliament can delay the triggering of A50 until they've debated the exit deal when exit deal negotiations can only begin after A50 is triggered?

As it says in the old comedy show SOAP; "Confused....... you will be" etc. :(

Brexiters certainly are.
One minute you wanted article 50 implimented the day after the referendum and now you realise that this would have been a stupid act as the government has no idea want it wants or could achieve through negotiation.

Dick Dasterdly Nov 6th 2016 12:57 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Canadian miner moves its HQ from Paris to London


"Canadian mining company Endeavor is to relocate its headquarters from Paris to London, in a move that is likely to cheer a market concerned that firms would leave the UK after the Brexit vote.

The company is understood to have made the decision because it favours the UK’s tax and business regime over the French system, and will locate its corporate staff in a new office in Kensington, having brokered the deal through agency JLL.

Endeavor closed an office in Vancouver earlier this year, and will also move staff from Monaco, as well as two offices in the French capital."

sir_eccles Nov 6th 2016 1:48 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 
Oh dear, we've got to the point where people demonstrate their lack of understanding of what makes up the Constitution of the UK. No we don't have a constitutional document like the US. There is a body of law and precedent. Hardly worth nothing trying to explain parliamentary sovereignty and all that.

Lion in Winter Nov 6th 2016 2:10 am

re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by mfesharne (Post 12096671)
Hmmmmm...... that raises a good point (or several) but one could argue we got into what evolved into the EU following a (presumably advisory?) referendum that directed the Govt of the day to join.

No, one couldn't. We entered after Parliament passed the European Communities Act of 1972. Hence my suggestion that perhaps it is an unwise idea to let a government overturn an act of parliament.


Parliament is indeed there to protect us but it is also there to obey the will of the people which is why they're called our elected representatives rather than our rulers.
It's the same thing. As our elected representatives, they pass and undo laws rather than the PM and her cabinet.


Let's also remember there are two basic sides to it and a referendum is British democracy by the principle of majority rule where the electorate vote & direct it's representatives & the other is British Parliamentary rule where Parliament debates & passes laws....... and the two shouldn't be confused with each other.
We don't have a direct democracy, we have a parliamentary system. There are no "two sides" and the reason the referendum is called advisory is because it is, well, advisory - not binding.


In the case in point we're talking British Democracy where the electorate have made the decision already...... hence the term; 'The People Have Spoken'
The majority of those who voted (not the majority of the electorate, remember, but about 37% of it) did indeed vote to leave, and nobody has suggested that we are going to do anything else, no matter how much the tabloids scream to the contrary.

Again, they did not vote on any of the conditions of the exit. Those remain to be decided and I would rather Parliament had some oversight rather than leaving it all to May, Boris et al.



And as I said before I wonder how Parliament can delay the triggering of A50 until they've debated the exit deal when exit deal negotiations can only begin after A50 is triggered?
You needn't worry. In all likelihood it is big business, in the UK, Europe, and the rest of the world that will be making most of the trade decisions. On other domestic matters however, I see no reason why Parliament cannot debate proposed steps - presumably May and Company have developed some sort of idea by now.


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