British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DigitalGhost May 26th 2018 10:24 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Annetje (Post 12505426)
Nice to know your point of view, but we already knew that from whenever you started posting on this thread !

This simple answer would be that you have that completely WRONG !!! Doctors and nurses visas have nothing to do with strawberry pickers.
Was too difficult to admit I asume :sarcasm:

The NHS blames the blockade on a Tier 2 visa restricted certificate of sponsorship quota for non-EU immigrants set seven years ago, which has already reached its limit.

UK Tier 2 visa quota stops NHS doctors coming to work in Britain Workpermit.com

Maybe you should try to use your Loaf every now and then !!! :nod:
.

No I answered your question, you just don't want to admit it as usual.

​​​​​​What newspaper is going to print an article headlined 'doctors refused visas and strawberry pickers are to blame'? You often have to use your head with these things and look at the evidence.

Incidentally before anyone makes any Daily Mail related jokes, don't bother.

DigitalGhost May 26th 2018 10:25 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12505424)
Let's agree that in hindsight the UK government's should have and could have handled things differently.
.

Now that one I agree with you on.

DigitalGhost May 26th 2018 10:26 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by EMR (Post 12505430)
The UK has more veto power and opt outs than any of the other EU members.

Yes it does. It's just a shame that a FoM opt out wasn't among them. I would have voted remain if it was.

macliam May 26th 2018 11:10 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12505439)
Yes it does. It's just a shame that a FoM opt out wasn't among them. I would have voted remain if it was.

As has been said, ad nauseam, other states in the EU use registration and other legal devices to avoid issues with FoM. Not being a member of Schengen gave the UK even more opportunity to control and regulate immigration had it wished.

The British Government refused to implement these rules because it suited them to have a pool of labour available - and/or because it refused to make the tough decisions that being a modern state requires. No registration, no ID cards, no restrictions on access to services, just all too difficult. Now you expect that same government to legislate against it????

I predict that, after the smoke and mirrors, any changes to migration rules will do no more than enforcing the current rules would have done.

Red Eric May 26th 2018 11:20 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12505435)
​​​​​​What newspaper is going to print an article headlined 'doctors refused visas and strawberry pickers are to blame'? You often have to use your head with these things and look at the evidence.

Looking at the evidence, there would be absolutely no problem if, along with the strawberry-picker vacancies, the remaining doctor vacancies could also be filled from within the EU.

If they were, do you think that would lead to a reduction in the number of tier 2 visas issued?

DigitalGhost May 26th 2018 11:22 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12505457)
As has been said, ad nauseam, other states in the EU use registration and other legal devices to avoid issues with FoM..

OK so what legal devices are those exactly? Because I have never had to do anything other than wave my passport at someone to pass a Schengen border. Meanwhile the UK border officers take my passport off me, scan it and ask questions about where I've been.

Unless the other EU countries have some sort of quota for the number of EU migrants they will take each year and Britain just isn't implementing that for whatever reason then what they have isn't going to be close to what I, and others, want.

DigitalGhost May 26th 2018 11:26 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12505460)
Looking at the evidence, there would be absolutely no problem if, along with the strawberry-picker vacancies, the remaining doctor vacancies could also be filled from within the EU.

If they were, do you think that would lead to a reduction in the number of tier 2 visas issued?

And therein lies the big problem really. The EU isnt' particularly helping to combat skilled labour shortages in this country which is why so many employers are forced into trying to sponsor people from other parts of the world. It's why we need a level playing field in our immigration system rather than the massive preferential treatment that is shown towards Europeans at the moment, regardless of skill level, language ability or likelihood of assimilation.

Red Eric May 26th 2018 11:28 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12505414)
Maybe you should put down your copy of socialist worker for a moment and use your loaf then.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12505419)
The view from the left that these are non-issues and can just be ignored or swept under the carpet has never helped anyone.

Never mind the cheap jibes. It's been pointed out to you time and again that the EU is nothing to do with socialism or the left. The institutions and the parliament are dominated by neoliberals and the four freedoms - including the free movement of labour - are integral to it.

And there are plenty on the left who object to all sorts of aspects of membership albeit without necessarily resorting to nationalism or stereotyping.

Red Eric May 26th 2018 11:31 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12505463)
And therein lies the big problem really. The EU isnt' particularly helping to combat skilled labour shortages in this country which is why so many employers are forced into trying to sponsor people from other parts of the world.

Of course there are citizens of other EU member states working in skilled occupations - including medicine - in the UK.

What on earth gives you the idea there aren't? :confused:

DigitalGhost May 26th 2018 11:46 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12505467)
Of course there are citizens of other EU member states working in skilled occupations - including medicine - in the UK.

What on earth gives you the idea there aren't? :confused:

Oh I know they are. I've worked with many of them and my dentist is Greek. My point is that we should be to accept those but refuse the unskilled ones. Sadly the EU does not permit that.

DigitalGhost May 26th 2018 11:47 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12505464)
Never mind the cheap jibes. It's been pointed out to you time and again that the EU is nothing to do with socialism or the left. The institutions and the parliament are dominated by neoliberals and the four freedoms - including the free movement of labour - are integral to it.

And there are plenty on the left who object to all sorts of aspects of membership albeit without necessarily resorting to nationalism or stereotyping.

Sorry you're going to have to explain that one because that doesn't make sense.

macliam May 26th 2018 11:55 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12505461)
OK so what legal devices are those exactly? Because I have never had to do anything other than wave my passport at someone to pass a Schengen border. Meanwhile the UK border officers take my passport off me, scan it and ask questions about where I've been.

Unless the other EU countries have some sort of quota for the number of EU migrants they will take each year and Britain just isn't implementing that for whatever reason then what they have isn't going to be close to what I, and others, want.

I think you are trying to obfuscate the matter here, because the Border Farce don't bother to check you on the way out, do they?.... and I would also be very surprised if you had to wave your passport in crossing a Schengen border, because there's nobody to wave you passport at! If you mean when you are entering from a non-Schengen country, then that's down to the immigration services of the state in question and the Schengen protocols, none of which apply to the UK. All you are talking about is a restriction on travel......

FoM only gives a 90-day visa waver to citizens off other EU countries, with the right to work during that period. After the 90 days, other EU states require migrants to register and obtain official status - which can mean proving that they are not a burden on the state, etc. What does the UK do? Other states have restrictions on access to benefits and other "rights" which require action from the migrant, but the UK has insisted on maintaining its "laissez-faire" attitude (and then moaning about being taken advantage of). Why don't people in Holland or Scandinavia have the same issues as the UK?

DigitalGhost May 26th 2018 12:04 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12505478)
I think you are trying to obfuscate the matter here, because the Border Farce don't bother to check you on the way out, do they?....

No because they don't need to. The UK uses e-borders for exit checks and it's tied in with departure records. Because you can't really leave the UK completely by private vehicle, a system like that works. Regardless though, even the US doesn't have exit checks and America has the strictest and most complex immigration controls of any major country.


Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12505478)
FoM only gives a 90-day visa waver to citizens off other EU countries, with the right to work during that period. After the 90 days, other EU states require migrants to register and obtain official status - which can mean proving that they are not a burden on the state, etc. What does the UK do? Other states have restrictions on access to benefits and other "rights" which require action from the migrant, but the UK has insisted on maintaining its "laissez-faire" attitude (and then moaning about being taken advantage of). Why don't people in Holland or Scandinavia have the same issues as the UK?

My understanding is that EU migrants to the UK have to enrol for an NI number before they can accept work etc. I don't know if there's any strict amount of time in which they need to do that though and it would make sense if there wasn't since there is no requirement for an EU national to declare intention on arrival in another member state. I'd also be extremely surprised if other EU countries rigidly stick by their 3 month requirement especially since their border officials, unlike ours, don't seem to record entry in any way for European citizens. At least not from my experience anyway.

dougal03 May 26th 2018 12:41 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
DG I,m with Mac. on the point about showing your passport.I have NEVER in 30 years of visiting Gibraltar(just down the coast for me)had to show my passport coming in from Spain.Just a bored flick of the hand to get me to pass on,from the British border control.And one time coming out from UK when I had had my passport stolen,in the coach going back via France,we were simply asked to hold up our passports,so I held up my recidencia.It was just a count of hands up & I continue on my way with the others!

DaveLovesDee May 26th 2018 1:03 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12505435)
What newspaper is going to print an article headlined 'doctors refused visas and strawberry pickers are to blame'? You often have to use your head with these things and look at the evidence.

EU doctors and non -EU doctors are on different immigration stream. EU strawberry pickers follow the same immigration stream as EU doctors.

The evidence is that there are needs for more more doctors and medical staff for the NHS, and due to underfunding and lack of placements of training courses, there are fewer Brits becoming qualified for these jobs. And it's easier to recruit EU nationals for these.

There was long been a decline of local workers working on local farms picking crops. Many of the workers moved to towns and cities to work, and their homes bought by those who wanted out of the cities.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12505439)
Yes it does. It's just a shame that a FoM opt out wasn't among them. I would have voted remain if it was.

Serious question: Do you understand what the four pillars are?

Agreement to ALL 4 pillars are required for EU/EEA membership. Not 3. Leaving the EU means losing all 4 pillars, not just FoM.

Leaving the EU also requires a hard border on the RoI side of the NI border, and on the Spanish side of it's border with Gib. That's EU law on any EU border with a non-EU/EEA/single-market country or territory. For the UK to get what it seems to want from Brexit, they're expecting the EU to agree yet more opt-outs for a country that is leaving anyway!

As does anyone who seriously thinks the EU would consider ending FoM for the UK while it remains a member.


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