British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 1:07 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12497158)
So, other than the UK, can you think of another member state which strongly disagrees with intra-EU migration?

I've no idea, I don't read the European press. Maybe parts of Scandinavia or Hungary? It's a different situation really. For example, Germany uses a Japanese-style mandatory health insurance system rather than the free for all nonsense that we have so therefore that's one less serious problem for them.

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 1:12 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12497155)
Can we have some examples of what it was that Khan said that leads you to make that comment about him, please?

Thanks :thumbup:

I don't think I've ever agreed with a single word that has come out of that guy's mouth but since you asked:


You might start off with (inaudible) saying how wonderful immigration is, but your campaign hasn't been project fair, it's been project hate as far as immigration is concerned.
EU referendum: Boris Johnson and Sadiq Khan clash in the biggest debate of the campaign - The World Today - ABC Radio

Red Eric May 10th 2018 1:13 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12497135)
People voted the way they did because there is no way of accommodating issues like FOM. It is so easy to blame governments but FOM is not government policy.

You talk about possible outcomes with Brexit but I must say again this is typical Remainer argument. There is no other choice for change within the EU. So people voted to leave. If there is a choice for change tell me how? How will staying in the EU improve peoples’ lot? How?

You're starting from the premise that peoples' lot is particularly bad and that that's down to membership of the EU and FoM. I agreee that a lot of people have got a very raw deal indeed - I just don't see being in the EU as being the root cause nor leaving as the solution but their lot could certainly be improved. Problem is, that wasn't the question on the referendum ballot.

Red Eric May 10th 2018 1:30 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497165)
I don't think I've ever agreed with a single word that has come out of that guy's mouth but since you asked:


You might start off with (inaudible) saying how wonderful immigration is, but your campaign hasn't been project fair, it's been project hate as far as immigration is concerned.
EU referendum: Boris Johnson and Sadiq Khan clash in the biggest debate of the campaign - The World Today - ABC Radio

You see what you've done there?

You start off saying that Sadiq Khan belittled and insulted anybody who had reasonable concerns about immigration and called them small-minded racists and yet the example you chose was him speaking to Boris Johnson about his campaign and its undeniable misuse of the topic. Admittedly it was subtler than Farage's but there was plenty of underlying unpleasantness and distortion in there too.


Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497162)
I've no idea, I don't read the European press. Maybe parts of Scandinavia or Hungary? It's a different situation really. For example, Germany uses a Japanese-style mandatory health insurance system rather than the free for all nonsense that we have so therefore that's one less serious problem for them.

You've done it again! :rolleyes:

Your claim was that FoM is an unworkable system that puts enormous strains on wealthier nations and yet when asked for an example of any that strongly object to it you can't name a single one and choose instead to slide off into a separate gripe altogether.

SultanOfSwing May 10th 2018 1:35 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12496799)
It's your petty side we see all day long, so no surprise there.

Oh stop, you're going to make me cry :rolleyes:

Red Eric May 10th 2018 1:37 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497159)
The fact that they can say hello and order a sandwich in English but not French or German really doesn't say a great deal.

If they have skills to offer or do jobs that no British resident will touch then no problem but we could quite easily have work permit options for those people. With regards to literacy, IMHO if you couldn't pass IELTS and have no extenuating humanitarian argument then you have no business being in the UK or any other anglophone country for that matter. At this point, no other anglophone part of the world apart from Ireland will let you immigrate without a decent IELTS score either.

It's down to the individual employer to decide whether fluency in spoken English is a requirement for the job. Lots of people have business being in countries when they don't have a full grasp of the native language.

Literacy is the ability to read and write. It's got nothing to do with fluency in a language.

amideislas May 10th 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497060)
It's nothing like that that at all. But nobody could possibly believe that allowing an almost endless stream of unskilled and often illiterate migrants into a country without regulation is a good idea.

Look, if you're living a great life under EU treaty rights in the likes of Spain or Portugal then I can see why you might think that EU FoM is a fantastic idea however try telling that to the single mother who works as a part-time hotel cleaner and has just had her hours cut because agency contracted Romanians will do the same job for less. Wage stagnation is bad enough in the UK without adding an un-metered foreign workforce into the mix.

Well, here's an idea; leave the EU, and see if it changes. Beware though, there's a few other things that go with that, and they might not be all that peachy.

But then, Britain could just change its immigration policy without all the drawbacks of Brexit. For example, more immigration comes from outside the EU than from it.

I suppose it's a bit like blue passports. After leaving the EU, Britain can have blue passports again. But of course, it could also have blue passports without leaving the EU. Britain can also have Christmas without leaving the EU. But leaving the EU will make it so much more satisfying.

la mancha May 10th 2018 1:38 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12497166)
You're starting from the premise that peoples' lot is particularly bad and that that's down to membership of the EU and FoM. I agreee that a lot of people have got a very raw deal indeed - I just don't see being in the EU as being the root cause nor leaving as the solution but their lot could certainly be improved. Problem is, that wasn't the question on the referendum ballot.

Not all people; don’t get me wrong. Those running the shop are doing okay as are those employing cheap European labour, among others. As we have been in the EU for over forty years I cannot see any other way for their lot (other than those mentioned) to improve. I ask again, can you and if so, how? The EU is the root cause of FOM. It is a standard they are not willing to negotiate on. It was one of the reasons we voted to leave. What change is the EU going to bring in to improve the lives of the people I am talking about? If there is no plan then what is it all about?

The question on the referendum ballot was in or out. We voted out. No problem.

Red Eric May 10th 2018 1:44 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12497182)
The question on the referendum ballot was in or out. We voted out. No problem.

Well it seems to be a bit of a problem seeing as the government is still negotiating with itself and parliament as opposed to with the EU and the clock's running down fast.

la mancha May 10th 2018 1:54 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12497185)
Well it seems to be a bit of a problem seeing as the government is still negotiating with itself and parliament as opposed to with the EU and the clock's running down fast.

Okay, but can you tell me what change the EU is going to bring in to improve the lives of the people I am talking about?

You say ,’ their lot could certainly be improved,’ I assume you mean by staying in the EU. I asked how?

DaveLovesDee May 10th 2018 4:33 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DigitalGhost (Post 12497159)
The fact that they can say hello and order a sandwich in English but not French or German really doesn't say a great deal.

If they have skills to offer or do jobs that no British resident will touch then no problem but we could quite easily have work permit options for those people. With regards to literacy, IMHO if you couldn't pass IELTS and have no extenuating humanitarian argument then you have no business being in the UK or any other anglophone country for that matter. At this point, no other anglophone part of the world apart from Ireland will let you immigrate without a decent IELTS score either.

How many Brits can order a sandwich in French or Spanish? And its not "dos pintos de Cerveza"!


Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12497182)
Not all people; don’t get me wrong. Those running the shop are doing okay as are those employing cheap European labour, among others. As we have been in the EU for over forty years I cannot see any other way for their lot (other than those mentioned) to improve. I ask again, can you and if so, how? The EU is the root cause of FOM. It is a standard they are not willing to negotiate on. It was one of the reasons we voted to leave. What change is the EU going to bring in to improve the lives of the people I am talking about? If there is no plan then what is it all about?

26 years. We were in the EEC before that.

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 5:06 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12497254)
How many Brits can order a sandwich in French or Spanish? And its not "dos pintos de Cerveza"!

If they're not planning to relocate to France or Spain then they don't really need that ability.

We've probably covered this before but I very much doubt that most of the Brits who do move to Spain are economic migrants.

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 5:12 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12497180)
But then, Britain could just change its immigration policy without all the drawbacks of Brexit. For example, more immigration comes from outside the EU than from it.

The problem here is that the UK's immigration figures are essentially bullshit. They include everyone, from permanent skilled and family-based immigrants to temporary workers and international students. Basically, anyone without an EU passport who isn't just in the UK on a short-term tourist visa or visa waiver stamp gets counted as an immigration statistic. To my knowledge, the UK is the only major country that counts people in this way and when you're dealing with as many international students from outside the EU as the UK does then that's a huge problem.

Those figures are also based on the nationality of the applicant and a lot of family-based migrants are based on EEA sponsorship. Rightfully those people should go into the EU figure because it is the EU/EEA that has allowed them to live and work in the UK in the first place. If the non-EU numbers were as high as those figures suggested then corporations, small businesses and organisations like the NHS wouldn't do as much whinging about UK visa policy as they do at the moment.

amideislas May 10th 2018 5:14 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12497191)
Okay, but can you tell me what change the EU is going to bring in to improve the lives of the people I am talking about?

You say ,’ their lot could certainly be improved,’ I assume you mean by staying in the EU. I asked how?


​​​​​​Here's a hint: Don't make everything the EU's problem (and therefore the blame). Take a little responsibility and fix it [whatever bothers you] yourself. That's actually what you're supposed to do. It's always easier to blame everyone else for your own doing. I believe there's a popular (uniquely British) TV programme about that mindset.

DigitalGhost May 10th 2018 5:17 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by amideislas (Post 12497274)
​​​​​​Here's a hint: Don't make everything the EU's problem (and therefore the blame). Take a little responsibility and fix it [whatever bothers you] yourself. That's actually what you're supposed to do. It's always easier to blame everyone else for your own doing. I believe there's a popular (uniquely British) TV programme about that mindset.

As I recall, Cameron tried to do that but wasn't able to secure what the UK really wanted (namely an end to FoM as it currently exists with relation to Britain).


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