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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

amideislas Apr 2nd 2018 9:47 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12474259)
I'm wondering how out three Brexiteers (Cape, Manch and Fred) think about each other - there certainly seems to be some differences in their thinking.

Cape thinks that the fate of Gibraltarians and Northern Irish is mere collateral damage compared to the vastly superior numbers of the rest of us.

I wonder what Fred thinks about that - the fate of Gibraltar subordinate to the needs of the UK.

Then there's Manch who seems really concerned about a relatively few jobs (well none really) and has been banging on about some silly petition to save these jobs.

I wonder how that balances with Cape's somewhat cavalier attitude to nearly two million people.

I suspect that these anomalies are rife in the wider Leaver psyche.


I don't think it matters. The important thing is leaving. Like, for example, that bloody mary and a fag first thing in the morning.

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 9:57 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12474113)
Okay. I was just wondering if your detailed and forceful arguments in favour of leaving had persuaded you to desert the remainiacs who are so obviously wrong and sheep like according to the gist of your comments.

I don't think you're making a very convincing case if you can't persuade yourself.

I think I've been very clear:
I believe that for me the positives outweighed the negatives.
That there are valid negatives.
That democracy should rule.

I am a remainer, the remainiacs do not believe there are negatives to the EU and do not believe in democracy.

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 10:07 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12474134)
Is there any objective reason to believe that the UK will get better terms after negotiating new trade deals than the larger EU trading block can get ? Or that the possibility of good trade deals ( which seems wishful thinking) will definitely make up for potential trade losses ?

Size isn't everything. When the EU negotiates an FTA is has the benefit of size, but it also has the downside of having 27 countries-worth of red-lines.

For example, the UK red-line could be a max tariff on services of 4%, whilst Greece wants regional product controls for yogurt. The negotiating country has already offered 3% on tariffs but doesn't want to budge on yogurt - the EU staff can trade the 1% on tariffs to get the agreement on yogurt - the EU gets all that it wants, but individual members (the UK in this instance) get a sub-optimal result.


Why are Brexiters so afraid of another referendum ?
Why do remainiacs wan't to subvert democracy to get people to revote?

When is it ever appropriate to have a revote because the losing side is upset? Should we have this for general elections that before the winning party even takes the reigns of government that we have to have a second vote if the losers complain enough?

There is no need for leavers to agree to a second vote, that is not how our democracy works. I know it's how the EU democracy works, but that is a different thing.

jimenato Apr 2nd 2018 10:12 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474264)
I think I've been very clear:
I believe that for me the positives outweighed the negatives.
That there are valid negatives.
That democracy should rule.

I am a remainer, the remainiacs do not believe there are negatives to the EU and do not believe in democracy.

Then there are no remainiacs here then are there?;)

Fredbargate Apr 2nd 2018 10:14 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474268)
There is no need for leavers to agree to a second vote, that is not how our democracy works. I know it's how the EU democracy works, but that is a different thing.

Possibly because the EU is not democratic?

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 10:14 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12474259)
I'm wondering how out three Brexiteers (Cape, Manch and Fred) think about each other - there certainly seems to be some differences in their thinking.

Cape thinks that the fate of Gibraltarians and Northern Irish is mere collateral damage compared to the vastly superior numbers of the rest of us.

I wonder what Fred thinks about that - the fate of Gibraltar subordinate to the needs of the UK.

Then there's Manch who seems really concerned about a relatively few jobs (well none really) and has been banging on about some silly petition to save these jobs.

I wonder how that balances with Cape's somewhat cavalier attitude to nearly two million people.

I suspect that these anomalies are rife in the wider Leaver psyche.

I am a remainer, so perhaps your points falls down.

I think that we need to examine the needs of NI & Gib but in light of the referendum vote.

Gib wants to remain part of the UK as does NI, therefore they are going to be following us out of the SM and CU. They will stay part of the UK until their populations no longer want to be.

I'm not sure who the 2 million people are, but I assume you mean NI people who will be impacted by a hard border - the reality is that most of them will have little impact from a well-managed hard customs border and that the number who will is a far smaller number.

We can't expect 65million people to BINO just to kowtow to some potential Irish terrorists.

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 10:15 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12474273)
Then there are no remainiacs here then are there?;)

If you believe in subverting democracy for a second vote - you are a remainiac.

jimenato Apr 2nd 2018 10:35 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
You're in full strawman mode this morning aren't you?


Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474268)

...


Why do remainiacs wan't to subvert democracy to get people to revote?
Not subvert democracy - more democracy (not that there are any remainiacs here)


When is it ever appropriate to have a revote because the losing side is upset?
It's not appropriate but that, of course, is not the reason. The reason is that it is only now becoming apparent what the consequences of leaving might be. We're not there yet but when the deal has been fixed, many people might not like it.


Should we have this for general elections that before the winning party even takes the reigns of government that we have to have a second vote if the losers complain enough?
Nope - for many reasons. One is that we will be having a General Election in 5 years time anyway - the referendum was forever.


There is no need for leavers to agree to a second vote, that is not how our democracy works. I know it's how the EU democracy works, but that is a different thing.
Yes - it's a different thing (even if true which it's not) and therefore irrelevant.


jimenato Apr 2nd 2018 10:37 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474276)
If you believe in subverting democracy for a second vote - you are a remainiac.

Nope - according to you remainiacs don't think there are any negatives to the EU.

I do.

Therefore, according to you, I'm not a remainiac.

jimenato Apr 2nd 2018 10:39 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474276)
If you believe in subverting democracy for a second vote - you are a remainiac.

That's not what you said before. Anyway - its just nonsense as I don't believe in subverting democracy.

jimenato Apr 2nd 2018 10:41 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474275)
I am a remainer, so perhaps your points falls down.

I think that we need to examine the needs of NI & Gib but in light of the referendum vote.

Gib wants to remain part of the UK as does NI, therefore they are going to be following us out of the SM and CU. They will stay part of the UK until their populations no longer want to be.

I'm not sure who the 2 million people are, but I assume you mean NI people who will be impacted by a hard border - the reality is that most of them will have little impact from a well-managed hard customs border and that the number who will is a far smaller number.

We can't expect 65million people to BINO just to kowtow to some potential Irish terrorists.

... or insignificant Gibraltarians.

SO you are advocating a hard border then?

May et al have promised there won't be one.

More promises broken?

Time for a second referendum?

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 10:50 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12474286)
You're in full strawman mode this morning aren't you?

If you want more democracy, perhaps we should have an annual EU referendum vote? Or how about best of three?

You assume that leavers were clueless and did not see what the "consequences of leaving might be" - that is the usual refrain of the loser - "the others didn't know what they were voting for".

Leaving is not for ever - if you want to have another vote in 40 years time then have at it. Sounds about fair.

macliam Apr 2nd 2018 10:53 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Cape Blue (Post 12474275)
I am a remainer, so perhaps your points falls down.

I think that we need to examine the needs of NI & Gib but in light of the referendum vote.

Gib wants to remain part of the UK as does NI, therefore they are going to be following us out of the SM and CU. They will stay part of the UK until their populations no longer want to be.

I'm not sure who the 2 million people are, but I assume you mean NI people who will be impacted by a hard border - the reality is that most of them will have little impact from a well-managed hard customs border and that the number who will is a far smaller number.

We can't expect 65million people to BINO just to kowtow to some potential Irish terrorists.

What a dick you are! Firstly, Gib is not part of the UK and never was, secondly a hard border in Ireland is contrary to treaties signed on your behalf by the UK government - but then, maybe treaties don't mean much to you.......

Good luck signing any trade deals when the other side know you can't be trusted.

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 10:53 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by jimenato (Post 12474292)
... or insignificant Gibraltarians.

SO you are advocating a hard border then?

May et al have promised there won't be one.

More promises broken?

Time for a second referendum?

I always assumed we would have a hard border and have said so repeatedly - the hard border being the EU one.

May is proposing options to avoid the negatives of a hard border whilst still respecting the referendum, but the EU do not appear to be very flexible on this - likely just a negotiating stance.

Cape Blue Apr 2nd 2018 10:56 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12474295)
What a dick you are! Firstly, Gib is not part of the UK and never was, secondly a hard border in Ireland is contrary to treaties signed on your behalf by the UK government - but then, maybe treaties don't mean much to you.......

Good luck signing any trade deals when the other side know you can't be trusted.

Usual eloquent ad-hom from the Celtic fringe.

My point was clear, Gib and NI both want to remain part of or attached to the UK and the UK gov should and will respect this.

The hard border in Ireland is being driven by the EU, the UK is offering various ways of avoiding it and the EU and Irish are playing politics with it.

I'll ignore your usual anti-British/anti-English positions, I know it is something people like you are born into.


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