British Expats

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-   -   Post EU Referendum (https://britishexpats.com/forum/take-outside-67/post-eu-referendum-879308/)

Garbatellamike Nov 21st 2017 10:11 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12386466)
:rofl:

well he was the last person to enter Parliament with honest intentions ;)

macliam Nov 21st 2017 10:25 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12386452)
Many including myself decided that the UK should leave membership of the EU long before the recent referendum.

That means nothing - your opinion is yours. It does not counter the argument that the distorted view of the EU promoted by self-interested media and powerful factions encouraged the UK voter to see it as a "foreign" and "imposed" system, rather than a cooperative and inclusive one. EU involvement in successful activities was played down whilst at the same time more controversial decisions were reported as having been "forced" on the UK. Neither is more true nor false than the other, but the impression given is that the EU is a parasitic imposition.

All this happened well before the referendum as well - and, who knows, may well have influenced your own opinion.:huh:

007Steve Nov 21st 2017 10:34 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike (Post 12386436)
Staying in the Customs Union?

A mere 76 MPs – just 12% of the Commons – voted for Ian Murray’s amendment last night to keep open the option of staying in the customs union. 311 voted against. Corbyn whipped Labour MPs not to back the amendment. Staying in the customs union is not Brexit, it’s good to see an overwhelming Commons majority now agrees. Remainers are forever demanding parliament has its say – well Parliament has spoken…

Quote from Guido Fawkes' blog

... When these events are eventually seen in historical perspective, (Trump's-red-button permitting) this will be known as The Treasonous Parliament.

Bipat Nov 21st 2017 10:52 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12386473)
That means nothing - your opinion is yours. It does not counter the argument that the distorted view of the EU promoted by self-interested media and powerful factions encouraged the UK voter to see it as a "foreign" and "imposed" system, rather than a cooperative and inclusive one. EU involvement in successful activities was played down whilst at the same time more controversial decisions were reported as having been "forced" on the UK. Neither is more true nor false than the other, but the impression given is that the EU is a parasitic imposition.

All this happened well before the referendum as well - and, who knows, may well have influenced your own opinion.:huh:

Your opinion macliam is yours! Also presumably means nothing?

My opinion was formed from study of EU law and reading the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties. I voted to remain in the EEC in the 1975 referendum in spite of Harold Wilsons views.

How Harold Wilson was warned Europe threatened British democracy - Telegraph

Garbatellamike Nov 21st 2017 11:02 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by 007Steve (Post 12386476)
... When these events are eventually seen in historical perspective, (Trump's-red-button permitting) this will be known as The Treasonous Parliament.

may be so or may be not - time will tell

la mancha Nov 21st 2017 11:45 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12386420)
:lol: It's the UK that needs to wake up to the dynamics at play. The EU, first and foremost, has to see off any threat to its existence and it will also defend itself against the importation of US neoliberalism through the back door. The UK has to make its mind up about which way it's going to jump, so if it wants the close relationship with the EU that it says it wants, it's going to have to make the big concessions. And Merkel's domestic difficulties are going to take priority over Brexit, which is far worse news for the UK than it is for the other EU member states. The EU's got the time and the power in these negotiations - especially if May either backs down or gets defeated over writing the leaving date into the Brexit bill.

I recall you being rather confident about the negotiations on account of them being with the 27 member states, who'd be keen to look after their own individual interests, rather than with "the EU". How's that going for you so far?

What concessions?

Of course Merkel’s (self-inflicted) problems (at least now it is acknowledged that she has them, something that was in denial last year) will take priority, I would not think otherwise. If Germany has problems they will reverberate throughout the EU as when the UK pulls out they will be the main contributors to lesser financially stable EU nations. As for this being worse news for the UK, I cannot see that. The leaving date was someone’s whim: I don’t think any Brexiteer in Government thought it was ever going to be a serious ‘either you do it or we walk away’ (from Government) thing.

With the EU having the time and the power, they have all the time in the world. Do the twenty-seven have the same time and power? Stopping UK flights over Europe? Think about it: when it comes to s*** or bust who of the twenty-seven would go along with that? I don’t think the EU is pulling the strings here. There is always going to be a ‘I’ve got a bigger pair than you’ speech by both sides but who really is steering the negotiations: Merkel and Macron, two failing politicians. Many a time an ailing politician has resorted to a show of strength that goes against common sense.

It is a great time to be British. Listening to the dumbing-down of Britain on here some of the sulky posters should hold their heads in shame. I am very confident with Brexit and Britain. Some people are born to whinge when they do not get their own way instead of working with the cards you have been dealt.

macliam Nov 21st 2017 11:52 am

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12386480)
Your opinion macliam is yours! Also presumably means nothing?

My opinion was formed from study of EU law and reading the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties. I voted to remain in the EEC in the 1975 referendum in spite of Harold Wilsons views.

How Harold Wilson was warned Europe threatened British democracy - Telegraph

Out of context quotes - do you work for Murdoch? The "meaning nothing" obviously alluded to your claim that you, amongst the "Many" had made your mind up before the referendum. "Many" others had made theirs up the other way, so what?

As you are a student of EU law, etc. you will know that no law can be imposed on a member state without the consent of its government. Those who have lived in EU states outside the UK will have seen differing implementation - so the EU is plainly not the all-powerful superstate some claim it to be. I have my own views on the current EU direction of travel and governance, but I believe that we are better fighting from within than throwing in the towel and running away. Since the UK was successful in negotiating the rebate, on Schengen, on Euro participation, on refugee settlement and many, many other matters, the facts appear to suggest that resistance is anything but futile.

However, as an Irish citizen, I remain able to do that, although weakened by the coming loss of an ally. Your views too may, I think, be coloured by matters beyond the future prosperity of the UK.

Bipat Nov 21st 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by macliam (Post 12386497)
Out of context quotes - do you work for Murdoch? The "meaning nothing" obviously alluded to your claim that you, amongst the "Many" had made your mind up before the referendum. "Many" others had made theirs up the other way, so what?

As you are a student of EU law, etc. you will know that no law can be imposed on a member state without the consent of its government. Those who have lived in EU states outside the UK will have seen differing implementation - so the EU is plainly not the all-powerful superstate some claim it to be. I have my own views on the current EU direction of travel and governance, but I believe that we are better fighting from within than throwing in the towel and running away. Since the UK was successful in negotiating the rebate, on Schengen, on Euro participation, on refugee settlement and many, many other matters, the facts appear to suggest that resistance is anything but futile.

However, as an Irish citizen, I remain able to do that, although weakened by the coming loss of an ally. Your views too may, I think, be coloured by matters beyond the future prosperity of the UK.

Yes the supremacy of EU law was with the consent of the UK Government of the time by the European Communities Act 1972--and subsequent legislation.
I would suggest that resistance regarding fundamental aims of the EU is futile.
That is my opinion, yours is different that is why we had a referendum.

Red Eric Nov 21st 2017 12:44 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike (Post 12386467)
well he was the last person to enter Parliament with honest intentions ;)

Which is the exact opposite of the Guido Fawkes comic. You never, ever get the full story from there, always just a few grains of truth deceitfully presented.

It's worth knowing why that amendment was voted down, don't you think?

007Steve Nov 21st 2017 1:00 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12386534)
Which is the exact opposite of the Guido Fawkes comic. You never, ever get the full story from there, always just a few grains of truth deceitfully presented.

It's worth knowing why that amendment was voted down, don't you think?

Oh, 100% - YOU BET Red Eric!!
Now just try.....

Red Eric Nov 21st 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by 007Steve (Post 12386550)
Oh, 100% - YOU BET Red Eric!!
Now just try.....

Oh, I did Steve, I did. That's how I know he was as consistently economical as ever on this occasion.

Garbatellamike Nov 21st 2017 1:21 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by Red Eric (Post 12386534)
It's worth knowing why that amendment was voted down, don't you think?

Yes

Red Eric Nov 21st 2017 1:40 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12386495)
What concessions?

The trade-offs for getting to keep what they want of the current arrangements whilst satisfying the requirement to leave the EU.


Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12386495)
The leaving date was someone’s whim: I don’t think any Brexiteer in Government thought it was ever going to be a serious ‘either you do it or we walk away’ (from Government) thing.

I don't understand. May is adamant about writing the Brexit date and time into law so that regardless of the state of the negotiations the UK unilaterally declares itself out at that juncture. I don't think it's going to happen - I certainly hope not because it would make things much worse for the UK in the highly foreseeable event of the negotiations not being concluded by then.


Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12386495)
With the EU having the time and the power, they have all the time in the world. Do the twenty-seven have the same time and power? Stopping UK flights over Europe? Think about it: when it comes to s*** or bust who of the twenty-seven would go along with that?

Of course not. I'm under no illusions that anything's just going to come to a stop, point blank. But the issue with flights isn't really about that over the long term and what it is about would represent a hit to the companies which currently operate out of the UK, for example plying routes which don't start or finish at UK airports.


Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12386495)
I don’t think the EU is pulling the strings here. There is always going to be a ‘I’ve got a bigger pair than you’ speech by both sides but who really is steering the negotiations: Merkel and Macron, two failing politicians. Many a time an ailing politician has resorted to a show of strength that goes against common sense.

Don't you? You really don't see who's controlling the pace of these talks? And who's got an expectant electorate hanging on those promises of picnic days on sunlit uplands?


Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12386495)
It is a great time to be British. Listening to the dumbing-down of Britain on here some of the sulky posters should hold their heads in shame. I am very confident with Brexit and Britain. Some people are born to whinge when they do not get their own way instead of working with the cards you have been dealt.

https://www.englishexperts.com.br/wp...TaxiDriver.gif

Lion in Winter Nov 21st 2017 2:03 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 

Originally Posted by la mancha (Post 12386495)
It is a great time to be British. Listening to the dumbing-down of Britain on here some of the sulky posters should hold their heads in shame. I am very confident with Brexit and Britain. Some people are born to whinge when they do not get their own way instead of working with the cards you have been dealt.

Personally, I was always fine with being British - weren't you?


Whingeing you say? The Leave campaign has been one looooong whinge about the nasty EU's behaviour towards poor victim Britain. Talk about low self-esteem...

iano Nov 21st 2017 2:51 pm

Re: Post EU Referendum
 
Fancy whinging over your hand in three card monte.

Came across a UKIP protest march in Stroud on Saturday; around 10 hardy souls bedecked in Union flags and purple carrying placards "Brexit means Exit" "No Open Borders No Single Market" while repeatedly chanting "OUT MEANS OUT !".

The general indifference of the alternative burghers of Stroud was priceless. Oh, how we laugh.


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